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Remembering 9/11  
User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Posted (11 years 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2053 times:

- Remember 9/11 ?

- I sure do.

- It happened on a Tuesday.

- Yes, exactly.

- It's estimated that up to 10,000 people were killed.

- What do you mean, 10,000? 3,000 is what I hear most often.

- 3,000? That a conservative estimate. Some even mention a death toll of well above 10,000 people.

- Are you crazy or what? Anyway, 3,000 deaths is way enough for me. What an act of terror it was.

- You're right about that. A real terror act.

- But we'll get those Al-Qaida bastards.

- What do you mean, Al-Qaida? That was organized by the CIA.

- WHAT? Get lost. The CIA has nothing to do with that.

- I'm sorry, but some recently declassified documents clearly show that the CIA was an active actor in that horrifying act of terror.

- What the f*** are you taking about?

- The September 11, 1973, CIA backed coup that overthrew the legitimately elected government of Salvador Allende in Chile.

- Oh! That terrorist act...

- Yes, that terrorist act. It's been 30 years this year. Will you remember it?


Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
115 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2734 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (11 years 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2039 times:

Good point !

Estimates of casualties in the take-over and subsequent Pinoche dictatorship were at 30,000 in a Yomiuri Shimbun article yesterday.



" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
User currently offlineLh526 From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 2370 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (11 years 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2030 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Yes, great someone brought up this point.
Especially for me as a half chilean of german origin this Allende / Pinochet coup is a big issue!
Thanks for bringing this to attention.

Mario
LH526



Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
User currently offlineUal747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (11 years 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2018 times:

Come on guys, this topic is purely flamebait. I also recognize the faults of the US in the past, but do we have to devalue the sentiment of 9/11 to prove a point? You're begging for a fight....

UAL747


User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6204 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (11 years 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2018 times:

People were crying "10,000" people when nobody had a clue. 3000 sounds reasonable considering that there was plenty of time to evacuate thousands of people out of and away from the towers before they collapsed. While there may have been homeless people that nobody was looking for (and thus never accounted for), the number may be higher than what they're saying, but I doubt much higher.

Yes we have installed a number of governments in other countries, Yes we gave Osama bin Laden money; but that doesn't mean there was any kind of conspiracy to attack America on the part of CIA.



Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5032 posts, RR: 43
Reply 5, posted (11 years 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2011 times:

Erm, Jhooper, you don't really get it, do you? Please re-read the thread starter...

User currently offlineCharleslp From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1995 times:

Come on guys, this topic is purely flamebait. I also recognize the faults of the US in the past, but do we have to devalue the sentiment of 9/11 to prove a point? You're begging for a fight....

...and so is the person who designed this webiste:

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/AmericanStateTerrorism.html


User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2502 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1984 times:

That website is scary! I agree, this is flamebait, especially with the 2 year anniversary of 9/11/01 coming up.

Rgds,

Greg



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1980 times:

The timing is certainly bad, but there's nothing wrong with pointing out that state-sponsored terrorism knows no borders.


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8115 posts, RR: 53
Reply 9, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1981 times:

I don't think it's flamebait at all. If you want to mourn the deaths of innocent lives on a certain day, I think September 11 is a good place to start. Thursday will be the 30th anniversary.


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2502 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1978 times:

Mourning is fine, but to bring it up in this way, to what seems intentionally to make those that open this thread believe they are reading something that happened 2 years ago will do nothing but spark a flame war.

I am not against reminding everyone what happened on this day 30 years ago, but do it in the correct context!

Rgds,

Greg



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlinePacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2734 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1968 times:

No, it's the 30 year anniversary ! Get it ?


" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6204 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1949 times:

Erm, Jhooper, you don't really get it, do you? Please re-read the thread starter...

oops; sorry; I guess I didn't read that carefully. I was referring to 9/11/01; Qb001 was referring to 9/11/73.

Look, I wasn't around back then, so I didn't even know about it until I saw Bowling for Columbine.



Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineUal747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1904 times:

OH MY! I watched that piece of crap movie last night. Listen, I'm very liberal, but Michael Moore is a phuking freak. What a load of propaganda. It's almost as bad as Bush justifying the war in Iraq as a means to rid the world of Weapons of Mass distruction, actually, now that I think about it, I'm more likely to believe the crap Bush feeds the US rather than the bullshit Michael Moore put into that movie.

UAL747

[Edited 2003-09-09 00:32:39]

User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8272 posts, RR: 23
Reply 14, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1863 times:

Props to UAL747. Well done.


This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (11 years 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1823 times:

Even though that the way he does the movies is questionable, the fact that Jhooper for example didn't even know of the "other" 9/11 shows that it is important that he does continue to make his movies.

User currently offlineSchoenorama From Spain, joined Apr 2001, 2440 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (11 years 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1710 times:


Jhooper said:

"Look, I wasn't around back then, so I didn't even know about it until I saw Bowling for Columbine."

Speechless...



Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
User currently offlineLan_Fanatic From Chile, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 1071 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (11 years 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1689 times:

Well...finally a chilean will speak here.


It is obvious that this is an unforgetable date for us in Chile. But I think it is just too much. I'm 19 years old, I was 5 when Chile returned to democracy so I practically did not notice about living in a military dictatorship. A lot of people died (thankfully nobody in my family) and a lot of rights were violated.And now,30 years later we still have riots in the streets for every anniversary, and you can see those people rioting...they are of my age.

But nobody is innocent.

Nor the military, nor the socialists.

Chile, during Allende's government was in a hole.Social and economic hole.The country was in bankruptcy, with an inflation of a 400%. No food in groceries...absolutely nothing.
And the majority of chileans WANTED a coup d'etat.
Obviously this does not justify a 17-year dictatorship or the murder of so many people. But I would like that people from abroad chilean borders knew the 2 sides of the story. Not just one.


And by the way, 777fan...
BOTH 9/11s, the american and the chilean are important. Not just the american.


User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3827 posts, RR: 33
Reply 18, posted (11 years 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1665 times:

Interesting sidenote - There was another plane crash in the US that happened on September 11, only the year was 1974. That was when the Eastern jet crashed at Charlotte.

LoneStarMike

User currently offlineIl75 From Argentina, joined May 2001, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (11 years 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1649 times:

The bloody coup against Salvador Allende, democratic president of Chile, happened 30 years ago.

But you can ask people in Southern Latin America what 9/11 brings for memories and they still will mention that sad day in Chilean history at first.

With all respect for the Americans in this forum and specially for those with dear ones among the victims of that terrible attack two years ago, I must remember that you don't own that date and that it means different things to different people.

As for instance to the Swedish people shocked today by the death of a young and very popular politician - foreign minister Anna Lindh - stabbed by an unknown man yestarday who is still on the run.

regards
erico


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1641 times:

Idiots strike again. I'm waiting for KROC's shaft, which is doubly needed for this thread.

User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (11 years 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1636 times:

I'm not even going to insult my intelligence by reading this thread, but if it is needed, here it is......

This thread has apparently earned it...


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16282 posts, RR: 56
Reply 22, posted (11 years 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1635 times:

But you can ask people in Southern Latin America what 9/11 brings for memories and they still will mention that sad day in Chilean history at first.

Ironically, Pinochet brought in conservative economic policies that enabled Chile to grow dramatically. He put Chile on a sound economic platform. Chileans are now in much better shape than Argentines thanks to Pinochet.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineIl75 From Argentina, joined May 2001, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (11 years 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1621 times:

Yes, Yvz717, you are absolutely right.

And that makes this Chile / Pinochet issue more complicated. Does his successful economical policies (very late as a matter of fact) excuses his crimes?

By the way, I want to state that the heading of this thread could be somehow rather provocative and misleading...

Qb001:

"Remembering another 9/11" or "Remembering and earlier 9/11" had been far more appropriated.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16282 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (11 years 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1615 times:

And that makes this Chile / Pinochet issue more complicated. Does his successful economical policies (very late as a matter of fact) excuses his crimes?

It does not excuse his crimes, but you could argue that the collective lot of Chile was vastly improved by Pinochet despite the human rights abuses on a small minority.

Since the overwhelming majority of Chileans benefited (as opposed to being hurt) by Pinochet, I would tend to support him more than oppose him.

But I agree with you, it is complicated.









Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
25 Qb001 : Here we go again, KROC thinking he's funny with his stupid shaft. And I thought moderators are supposed to be neutral...
26 JetService : Where have all you idots been about these other problems before the WTC attacks? Are you bitter that we mourn our comrades so passionately while you'v
27 KROC : Well said Jetservice. Qb001. The Shaft doesn't take sides, and I responded to a request. I personally could care less about your incessant whining in
28 Qb001 : KROC, You don't like me? Fine, couldn't care less. But as a moderator, is it too much asking that you remain neutral and keep your stupid "jokes" to y
29 KROC : Ob001. I do not know you, therefore I cannot judge you, which means I have no idea if I do not like you or not, so please, spare me. And it was YOU wh
30 Qb001 : I addressed you? Baloney. YOU posted that childish shaft in a thread I started. And as far as I know, I didn't asked for it. Now I understand what Sch
31 Post contains images Yyz717 : What's wrong with the SHAFT? It's just a light hearted poke. Someone has life I-S-S-U-E-S.
32 JetService : KROC is an equal opportunity shafter. The only variable is the skin thickness of the shaftees. Here's a scale for future reference. ------------Thick
33 JAL777 : Someone has life I-S-S-U-E-S. Correction: Someone has no-life I-S-S-U-E-S.
34 Qb001 : KROC is an equal opportunity shafter. I have absolutely no doubt this is true. And that's exactly the problem. Members don't have the same background,
35 KROC : Members don't have the same background, the same culture, the same vision, the same sensitivity. Therefore, the same "joke" will not be understood the
36 IHadAPheo : Everyone with the same thoughts, everyone with same religon, everyone acting exactly the same and following exactly the same daily habits, wearing the
37 Post contains links Qb001 : KROC, There is nothing more "cultural" than humor. What's funny to you might be offending to another. If you don't understand that, right there you ha
38 KROC : You mean to tell me that humor is not "debatable"? Come on now. If one can debate an opinion, than one can debate wether or not something is funny or
39 Qb001 : Come on now yourself. Obviously, you didn't take the time to read the page to which I provided a link in reply 37. Had you done so, you would have rea
40 777236ER : Had you done so, you would have realized that humor is closely linked to one's culture. Humor, such as beauty, in the eye of the beholder. This is get
41 KROC : Your link served what purpose? You say humor cannot be debated like an opinion or view, but ones opinion or view on humor is no different than their o
42 Post contains images JAL777 : As for the thread, I wonder who if anyone knew about the CIA involvement in the coup in Chile. I had read about it before but didn't know much. It's a
43 IHadAPheo : Saying that humor is cultural is about as enlightening as saying that culture is cultural, Innuendo is cultural, and humor can be funny (speaking of f
44 Post contains images Monarch :
45 Post contains images Monarch :
46 Yyz717 : Maybe you can be an excellent moderator in an American-only forum. I have some reservation about your capacity to moderate an international one. Stop
47 777236ER : So the CIA should take its credit for the wonderful economic renaissance that happened under Pinochet. Thanks for reminding us. Chileans are the envy
48 Arrow : "Where have all you idots been about these other problems before the WTC attacks? Are you bitter that we mourn our comrades so passionately while you'
49 JetService : To put it in its starkest terms, more people in the world die every day from starvation and preventable disease than were victims of 9/11 That will ne
50 Ual747 : So...we have a day to remember Pearl Harbor, which happened over 50 years ago and had less casualties, so why not have a day for September 11? UAL747
51 Qb001 : The buddies ganging-up. What a surprise... Kroc, how many languages do you speak? English only? Fine. But speaking more than one language acts as an e
52 Post contains images Monarch : I found the following on American Ailrines website. I thought it was very nice fo them.
53 Lan_Fanatic : 777236ER: I can see you have only one idea of Pinochet. Chile is what it is now thanks to Pinochet. Chile thanks to Allende was an isolated country. F
54 777236ER : I can see you have only one idea of Pinochet. Chile is what it is now thanks to Pinochet. Chile thanks to Allende was an isolated country. Few exports
55 Lan_Fanatic : I am not saying that opening Chile's economy justifies the murders and all that stuff. But we can say that at least it was a brutal dictatorship with
56 Qb001 : Lan_fanatic, What do you answer to those who say that Allende was elected in a legitimate election?
57 KROC : So...we have a day to remember Pearl Harbor, which happened over 50 years ago and had less casualties, so why not have a day for September 11? The day
58 CaptainStabbin : I actually started balling when I read reply #51. That post is the absolute epitome of arrogance. Have you no shame, Qb001? What makes you think that
59 Qb001 : You cannot function properly in a forum where people do not agree with you, have a different sense of humor than you, where discussions can get heated
60 KROC : why do I have the feeling that you are referring to yourself in writing the above statement Because you are clueless? I have been in plenty of heatedd
61 Lan_Fanatic : QB001: I have no answer for them, because NOBODY doubts about it. Allende won that election. And due to the fact that he did not have the absolute maj
62 Yyz717 : You, as a Canadian, don't even speak French, so please That's correct. Neither do most Canadians. 72% of Canadians don't speak French which makes us t
63 Lan_Fanatic : Thanks Yyz717 for your support. This is what a lot of chileans like me have to go on through. Most europeans tend to criticise Pinochet's government.
64 777236ER : So please don't be so narrow minded. Narrow minded?! Pinochet murdered people! He tortured people! Don't you get that? Bloody hell, economic reform ca
65 Qb001 : You don't even have the guts to say you're Canadian on your profile Exactly, in no way do I want people to know that you and I are from the same count
66 777236ER : This is what a lot of chileans like me have to go on through. Did Pinochet murder and torture his own citizens, suspend the constitution and free spee
67 KROC : If I was thin skinned, I would crying about everything like you, I would be offering to trade "stories" with another 'member' about moderator dealings
68 Lan_Fanatic : 777236ER said:"Just lucky he didn't dare oppose Pinochet is it? Or he would have been tortured then killed." Oh my... As you may know...there are alwa
69 Arrow : Pinochet did some good things? Hmmm.. Under Hitler, Germany's economy grew like ganbusters, the trains ran on time, technological marvels were introdu
70 Yyz717 : Did Pinochet murder and torture his own citizens, suspend the constitution and free speech and remove all opposition, or did he not? Man, are you naiv
71 Yyz717 : Hmmm.. Under Hitler, Germany's economy grew like ganbusters, the trains ran on time, technological marvels were introduced, inflation was cut from 100
72 777236ER : Man, are you naive. No one is saying that Pinochet was an angle. Who is? There are normal people, then there are people who murder and torture. But he
73 Qb001 : Kroc, Doesn't make sense. If you were really laughing so much, you wouldn't be arguing with me. You just don't support that your ability to moderate a
74 Yyz717 : If thinking a murderer shouldn't be in power Pinochet is not in power. He voluntarily stepped down in 1990 as Chile ushered in democracy. The economic
75 KROC : Doesn't make sense. If you were really laughing so much, you wouldn't be arguing with me. You just don't support that your ability to moderate an inte
76 Qb001 : Kroc, Sorry, but you seem to be entangled in your own circular logic. But you'll be happy that I think that way because that's where I call it quit.
77 Arrow : "So you're comparing Pinochet to Hitler? That is nonsense. Actually, I'm comparing your argument that Pinochet did good things for the economy (and by
78 Yyz717 : But if you think Allende's economic policies trump democratic principles, then you don't really believe in democracy, do you. I put a higher value on
79 Qb001 : Excellent point Arrow. The arrogance of those supporting this murderous coup knows no limit. I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country g
80 JAL777 : BTW Arrow, you've just made my respected user list. Is that supposed to be some kind of honor?
81 Yyz717 : Henry Kissinger turned out to be right though didn't he????? Chile is booming and Pinochet remains popular despite stepping down. The arrogance of tho
82 Arrow : I put a higher value on freedom fron poverty than the freedom to elect a Marxist leader. Freedom is freedom. If you're not free to elect a Marxist lea
83 Qb001 : To say that it's okay to destroy thousands of lives because at the end of the process there is economic prosperity (then again for who exactly?) is re
84 Yyz717 : Freedom is freedom. Nope. Not everything is black & white. Given a choice, I'd rather have economic freedom than electoral freedom. SIN & HKG are run
85 Qb001 : That makes it clear now: YYZ717 is a semi-democrat and semi-supporter of dictatorship.
86 Yyz717 : YYZ717 is a semi-democrat and semi-supporter of dictatorship. Where would you choose to live QB001? Singapore (PCI $20k), or Senegal (PCI $250)??? Cho
87 FDXmech : QB001, Perhaps if you posted this topic honest and straightforward instead of pitting one group aganst the other it would carry more weight than perci
88 Post contains images Qb001 : FDXmech, I have lots of respect for you. It's not a joke, it's not ironic, it's not sarcastic; it's true. Although I don't agree with you most of the
89 Qb001 : Where would you choose to live QB001? Singapore (PCI $20k), or Senegal (PCI $250)??? This is a flawed question. I can live in a great democracy, such
90 Lan_Fanatic : For all of you throwing sh*t to Pinochet's government... The only thing I can say to you now... you must be GRATEFUL for not having a democratic-elect
91 777236ER : How can you chose the lesser of two evils? Under Allende, Chile would have gone to the dogs and have been destroyed economically. Under Pinochet, peop
92 L-188 : Exactly, The reason why Chile was able to eventually come back to a democracy was because of the economic impacts of the Chicago Boys and their mentor
93 Post contains images Qb001 : Sorry Lan_Fanatic, But there are just too many Chilean refugees here, who told us so many horror stories of what was going on in Chile, to just brush
94 Post contains links Aloges : For all those who want to fully remember the events on 9/11/2001: http://www.markfiore.com/animation/twoyear.html Mark Fiore is an American.
95 Yyz717 : Where would you choose to live QB001? Singapore (PCI $20k), or Senegal (PCI $250)??? This is a flawed question. I can live in a great democracy, such
96 FDXmech : FDXmech, >>>I have lots of respect for you. It's not a joke, it's not ironic, it's not sarcastic; it's true. Although I don't agree with you most of t
97 CaptainStabbin : I've been to Singapore before and it's an absolutely beautiful city. It has a much, much better quality of life than any Western city I've visited and
98 Yyz717 : If I had the choice between Singapore and Senegal, there is no question that I would rather live in Singapore, even if I couldn't vote. From a common
99 777236ER : Exactly. I'd make the same choice. So would most people. But according to Arrow, 777236ER & Qb001 democracy is more important than economic progress.
100 Yyz717 : 777236ER, I'm glad you finally have come around to the point that democracy and human rights are more than just the right to vote. There are many shad
101 777236ER : Just as the initial days of Pinochet were perhaps eratic, it followed with decades of stability and prosperity. Decades of stability...with no opposit
102 Yyz717 : for the Iraqis security was much much higher under the old regime. Should Saddam have stayed in power? In what way was security better under Saddam? A
103 Post contains links 777236ER : In what way was security better under Saddam? Are you aware of the complete state of siege under which all Iraqis lived under the Baath regime? Yeah I
104 Yyz717 : What about the REDUCTION in basic services, Yyz717? The average Iraqi seems to have been BETTER OFF under Saddam...course they weren't free and couldn
105 Jaysit : "Would you rather live in the dictatorship Singapore with a high PCI or the democracy Senegal & live in a poor retched state?" Well, Singapore is not
106 Erj190 : The things we hear... Before the coup in Chile, the country was not exactly poor, by south American standards. Nevertheless, the fact is that in 1970,
107 Jaysit : Erj190 - that was very well written, indeed. Kudos ! And thanks for that balanced refresher on modern Chilean history.
108 Qb001 : Answer the question QB001. Would you rather live in the dictatorship Singapore with a high PCI or the democracy Senegal & live in a poor retched state
109 Qb001 : BTW Erj190, Great post!
110 777236ER : Once again, by your argument Hitler was not worth fighting because of the chaos in 1946 after the war compared to the relative stability in 1936. Excu
111 Arrow : yyz717 -- Are you still a Pinochet booster, after reading erj190's post? Seems he wasn't such an economic wizard after all. Here's an interesting NYT
112 Lan_Fanatic : Oh I see...for people outside Chile there was no economic miracle...but for us, chileans, there was one. Who might be right? And about the worst crisi
113 Erj190 : Well, Lan_Fanatic, I allays respect the opinion of somebody that has been on the ground. But, you know better than us all, that Chile is a very large
114 Lan_Fanatic : About the chilean electoral system...it worked like that. I don't know exactly how it was then, but as no candidate had the absolute majority, there w
115 Rolex01 : Well try this. Maybe you can be an excellent poster in a French-Canadian only forum, but I have some reservation about your ability to post, debate,
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