N6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 622 times:
For those who continue to insist that increases in spending is the cure all for our problems in education, I'll submit the following article:
From CNN:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The United States spends more public and private money on education than other major countries, but its performance doesn't measure up in areas ranging from high-school graduation rates to test scores in math, reading and science, a new report shows.
"There are countries which don't get the bang for the bucks, and the U.S. is one of them," said Barry McGaw, education director for the Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which produced the annual review of industrialized nations.
The United States spent $10,240 per student from elementary school through college in 2000, according to the report. The average was $6,361 among more than 25 nations.
For those of you who bemone the Bush "cuts" in education, look toward the bottom of the article for an amazing statistic:
Federal education spending has grown by $11 billion since President Bush took office, Paige said, but that includes spending beyond the first 12 grades. Even increased money for elementary and secondary education doesn't cover the law's sweeping expenses, said David Shreve of the National Conference of State Legislatures.
How much is enough? At what point to we have to turn to the parents and ask them to take responsibility for educating their kids? Does anyone believe that if the increases in spending were doubled or tripled we'd do better?
To me this is an excellent argument that the Federal Department of Education needs to be eliminated and the money spent on administration given directly to the state and local school boards to be spend on EDUCATION and not administration.
Tbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7011 posts, RR: 28 Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 615 times:
Hell, I dont notice any of these increases at my school. Since my freshman year, our tuition has gone up 5% every years (10% total), and at the beginning of this year (Junior Year), we had some major cutbacks. My department, Atmospheric Sciences, got especially hard hit. One of the classes I was registered for over the summer got canceled, two professors were "released", and two more retired.
Then again, I'm in the wonderful state of Illinois.
B757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 25 Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 611 times:
That's what we get since Bush decided to be nice and let Ted Kennedy write the latest education bill. For all my support of Bush, this is one of the things I think he FUBARed.
Cba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4530 posts, RR: 3 Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 606 times:
We don't need increased public school funding, we need national reform, and one standard national curriculum.
N6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 601 times:
CBA -
Where in the constitution do you think that it gives the federal government the authority to create a national curriculum? Take a look at the 9th and 10th amendments.
Cba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4530 posts, RR: 3 Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 586 times:
Yes, I know it's unconstitutional. Problem we have currently is that some states have excellent schools, while other states have horrible public schools. There needs to be some kind of national standard. Problem is, how do you do it and not violate the constitution?
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 586 times:
Great, another PR man on A.net for George Bush. Education is still a disaster, but hey, spending is up. Bush is acting positively liberal with all the money he is throwing around these days.
What happened to the old Republican mantra that more money isn't the answer to all our problems?
Cptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2558 posts, RR: 14 Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 575 times:
Really, the educational spending in my (Detroit) area seems to be producing more school board responsibility. Just last week, they unanimously voted to change their all expense paid fact-finding venue from Caleta Camarones and Antofagasta to Las Vegas, from where, obviously, they can bring back more information and new ideas, especially in the mathematics classes. I know this, because I just axe one of them a few days ago...jack
N6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 567 times:
Cba -
Couple of questions:
1. What do you think the benefit of national standards are? I ask this in all seriousness because I really don't see what a national standard would accomplish.
2. Do you think it's correct to have a national standard for student but not one for the teachers. Note that the NEA aggressively fights any proposal to have teachers tested to prove that they are qualified.
L-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29350 posts, RR: 62 Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 567 times:
The increase in Education spending is good, but I would like to see the department of Education abolished all-together.
The National standards.......Based on what I can see, I think they are going to force more qualified people to look elsewhere for jobs, since their livelyhood is going to be based on the performance of a teenager that just doesn't care.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
Cptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2558 posts, RR: 14 Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 557 times:
Well, national standards might help when you ask a student (or teacher):
"What is the sum of two plus two?"
And, instead of getting the answer "four", you get "it depends on what the meaning of 'is' is".
N6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 553 times:
Sauce,
Money isn't the answer to everything. In fact, it isn't the answer to most things.
My original post stated:
"How much is enough? At what point to we have to turn to the parents and ask them to take responsibility for educating their kids? Does anyone believe that if the increases in spending were doubled or tripled we'd do better?"
GWB is not a conservative and I am no fan of his spending programs. However, how many liberals have criticized the Bush administration for "cutting" spending on education. Something which this article demonstrates is simply not true.
Maybe a night course in remedial reading comprehension is warranted.
174thfwff From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 545 times:
Guys,
It's easy for you to say "let the parents take care of some of the responsibility", however have you looked at the average work load of the 10th, 11th, and 12th grader recently? I'm not trying to brag, but both my parents have 100K+ jobs, and they are both very good at what they do, however they haven't been able to help me with jack since I was in 8th grade...What do those parents who have assembly jobs and who work at burger king do to help their children because they themselves didn't even graduate highschool?The stuff we do is very tough, and most of my teachers have a hard time even explaining physics, chemistry, and biology to us, and it's their job!
Furthermore, I'm friggin 18 and here's my day...
School from 7am-3pm
3:45-5:45 is homework
6-10 is either...work, EMT class, fire department training
10-whenever is homework again...
And I'm not alone. Kids have gotten to the point here in America where we are just saying "Fudge it" because we quite honestly are over extended with stuff besides school.
N6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 543 times:
174thfwff -
Clearly you're an extraordinary person with a tremendous workload (btw - when do you find time to moderate the forum?). I'll bet that you also do above average in school.
However, if kids are overextended why did the parents allow this? Two, I'm sure that your parents helped you tremendously in your early formative years. Without that base, do you think you'd be accomplishing what you are doing now? I think too many parents wait until its too late to start playing an active role in their children's lives.
174thfwff From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 538 times:
"when do you find time to moderate the forum"...
I'm a great multi-tasker+insomniac!
"However, if kids are overextended why did the parents allow this?"
Their parents allow this because they quite frankly do not know...They don't know because it's what every other child is doing.
"I think too many parents wait until its too late to start playing an active role in their children's lives." I agree, however when parents have to work three jobs to put food on the table, there really isn't time to help the children progress in the early years. Furthermore, when they are in daycare because of their parents job there isn't really time for that mother/father interaction with the children.
N6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 535 times:
If the parents don't know what's going on in there child's life then no amount of spending by the government is going to fix it.
I'd caution you about this "three jobs to put food on the table" stuff. Though I don't have any statistics in front of me, I'd wager that a very small fraction of all working parent work three jobs. I'm sure that a there's a lot more who work two (but I can't believe that the figure is even 20% - admittedly this is speculation on my part). The use of hyperbole such as this can backfire in a substantive discussion.
Without a doubt, the role of parent in a child's life is invaluable and can't be replaced by any amount of government intervention or government spending. Though I'm certainly not a fan of Sen Clinton, I do think she had a point with the title of her book, "It takes a village to raise a child."
Cba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4530 posts, RR: 3 Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 528 times:
You can't just get into college on good grades these days. Colleges want to see extracurriculars, jobs, sports. They want you to be Mr. Everything. So now, high school students have to do way too much besides study. Also, many students need to have jobs in order to be able to afford college and to have some sort of spending money. I've got school from 7-3, then work from 4-8.
Back on topic, national standars would be good because there are too many discrepencies between the different states and schools. I know students my age in other states that are taking a completely different set of courses. The national curriculum needs to be a lot more rigorous also. We need to adopt a program like the ones used in Europe. American kids are always behind the Europeans and the Japanese.
If we're going to hold students to a national standard, we should do the same for teachers. Teachers should have to have a national certification, not a state certification.
Of course, my idea of a European-style education system is some what of a pipe dream over here.
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