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Why No Compulsory National ID Card In UK?  
User currently offlineDoorsToManual From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (11 years 3 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3743 times:

Hi

This is something that interests me - many other countries in Europe seem to have compulsory ID cards for all their citizens.

This is a topic that is currently being debated in Britain (where currently there is no compulsory national ID). Personally, I would have no problem with the government having my details - I am a law-abiding citizen and therefore I can't see what I would have to worry about.

What exactly are some people worried about, if they aren't criminals?

rgds

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJaspike From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2008, 1 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3719 times:

I wouldn't be bothered if we had a card.. but we seem to be doing fine without one so why bother? If it was so important then we'd have one. This is where people will start throwing facts and figures at me  Laugh out loud

What exactly are some people worried about, if they aren't criminals?
Exactly, if they're not criminals why have a card? Waste of time and money having a card in my opinion...

Josh


User currently offlineSaintsman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 2065 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3713 times:

It's the civil liberties brigade that are shouting the most, along with the criminal element of course.

I carry around a whole wad of ID in my wallet every day so I don't see any problem myself.


User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3700 times:
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I have no problem with carrying ID cards, it does not invade my privacy or freedom, this is the argument used by the liberals. One reason we don't have ID cards is because in the UK your British drivers licence and passport are legitimate ID's. There have been many occasions when i've used my passport as an ID, from enroling at university to opening a bank account. But times have changed, we have a huge asylum problem in Britain, it's easy for a foreign national to come to the UK and claim bogus benefits, work illegally and access public services such as the NHS at the expense of the taxpayer.



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12868 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3697 times:
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[fx: crusty upper-class British accent]

We don't need one because we're British damn it! Only needed for bloody Johnny foreigners, what ho!  Smile




Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 3681 times:

The UK has cameras everywhere on public places instead of ID cards, their
way to combat crime...


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3641 times:

The idea that ID cards will reduce crime is utter cobblers. It hasn't anywhere else, and all you create is a market in fake ID cards for the criminals.

As for not having anything to fear if you've done nothing wrong, this is the justification for all manner of state repression. I'm not suggesting that is what any government would necessarily do, but it certainly makes it easier, it's the thin end of the wedge.

Besides, why the hell should I have to prove my identity to a police officer anyway? What has it got to do with him? If I'm doing something wrong, arrest me. If I'm not what business have you got asking me for ID?



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineAndreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 31
Reply 7, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3636 times:

Attention IRONY!!!!!!!:

Britain needs no ID, especially not to distinguish themselves from foreigners, I mean...who in his right mind, who had the luck not to be born British, would ever try to pretend to be British...or even worse, a British football fan...



I know it's only VfB but I like it!
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 8, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3625 times:

At least unlike certain Germans, we do not need a caption saying "Attention IRONY!!!" - we can work it out on our own.  Big grin


She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineAndreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 31
Reply 9, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3635 times:

These first two words weren't directed at you, but at many others here on this forum who have about as much sense for humour as your average drosophila melanogaster!


..the rest though...that was excusively directed at you...I couldn't resist  Big grin



I know it's only VfB but I like it!
User currently offlineAndreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 31
Reply 10, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3625 times:

These first two words weren't directed at you, but at many others here on this forum who have about as much a sense of humour as your average drosophila melanogaster!


..the rest though...that was excusively directed at you...I couldn't resist  Big grin



I know it's only VfB but I like it!
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 11, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3618 times:

Are we still allowed to kick you out of the country?  Big grin


She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineDoorsToManual From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3620 times:

Allow me to reproduce one of Cecil Rhodes' famous phrases:

"To be born English is to win first prize in the lottery of life".

And for once, this isn't a French guy speaking! Big grin

brgds


User currently offlineAndreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 31
Reply 13, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3605 times:

Of course, but I guess after having worked for a British employer for more than six years there are now too many Brits who, after weighing all pros and cons, have come to the ultimate conclusion that keeping me there is better than kicking me out  Smile


I know it's only VfB but I like it!
User currently offlineCptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3598 times:

Well, there's no I.D. card in the U.S. either. Just wondering, what countries actually have a national ID card? Maybe I'm out of the loop here, but are there any?...jack


all best; jack
User currently offlineBobrayner From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2003, 2227 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3587 times:

Well, there's no I.D. card in the U.S. either. Just wondering, what countries actually have a national ID card? Maybe I'm out of the loop here, but are there any?...jack

Belgium, Brazil, Chile, China, Malaysia, Germany, Poland, France, Vietnam, Greece, Luxembourg, Portugal, Singapore, South Africa, Spain, Thailand, Korea, Pakistan, Italy, Greece, ... probably lots of others out there.

There's great scope for variety among ID card systems:
1. Who issues them - a central agency, or the local town hall?
2. Crosslinking with other databases - criminal record, social security, driving license, tax, ...
3. Smart card? Holograms? Machine-readable? Or a crumpled old piece of paper?
4. What data they contain - biometrics, address, photo, next-of-kin, organ donor status, shoe size...?

Most other countries have some kind of universal national number to identify people, but don't have a personal document to prove it.



Cunning linguist
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8760 posts, RR: 42
Reply 16, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3598 times:

I still remember how proud everyone was because they had just received their "Persos" (slang for "Personalausweise", German for "ID card"), at age 16... LOL, except for me who wasn't in Germany when I turned 16 - I got a nice Brazilian ID card for foreigners instead, which somehow managed to stay in better shape than my "Perso"... "Oops, you mean it's NOT supposed to have dog-ears?!?"


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineJcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 17, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3584 times:

"To be born English is to win first prize in the lottery of life".

I believe it goes like this, "To be born English is to win worst teeth prize in the lottery of life!"  Big grin  Big thumbs up Don't worry, I'm of British ancestory so I can make these condecesending comments.

There is no national ID card in America, but there is a good reason why. 90%+ of the adult population owns a drivers license, and having a state-issued ID in America is pretty crucial so those who dont drive usually just carry around state ID cards.



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineCptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3580 times:

Thanks, Bobraner...I didn't know of the countries issuing national I.D. cards. Sort of reminds me of the 3rd Reich..."Show me your papers". However, perhaps with the way things have changed, a national ID card could be a good thing? When I go across the river to Canada, I sometimes forget to take my passport (inconvenient to carry it anyway) and licenses simply allow you to operate machinery - not really a true form of ID (sorry, Californians), and my voter ID, although proof of US citizenship, doesn't carry a picture, so I have to answer questions every now and then...jack


all best; jack
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 19, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3564 times:

JCS17: There is no national ID card in America, but there is a good reason why. 90%+ of the adult population owns a drivers license, and having a state-issued ID in America is pretty crucial so those who dont drive usually just carry around state ID cards.

That's one of the differences, JCS, we don't have any form of photographic ID, which is why this argument is going on. It's also why we have to remember our passports when we visit bars in the US, we don't have anything else that proves we're over 18 in order to be allowed to drink the nasty weak rubbish you serve over there. (Are we even in insults now?  Big grin )



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineN6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3569 times:

As an American, I'd have no problem with a national id card.

As a side note (and not one I support), I heard that one of the leading opponents to a national ID card in the US is the fundamentalist Christian movement who have equated the idea of a compulsary national ID with the "mark of the beast" language in Revelations.

"No one could buy or sell unless he had the mark" (Rev. 13:16-18)

-76M



User currently offlineBobrayner From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2003, 2227 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3554 times:

As a side note (and not one I support), I heard that one of the leading opponents to a national ID card in the US is the fundamentalist Christian movement who have equated the idea of a compulsary national ID with the "mark of the beast" language in Revelations.

"No one could buy or sell unless he had the mark" (Rev. 13:16-18)


True; but this has also been used to oppose lots of other innovations in money / payment - especially anything electronic, that suddenly presents problems of identification.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy





Cunning linguist
User currently offlineJimbobjoe From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3553 times:

According to history, the UK did have an ID card during and slightly after WW2, which Churchill eliminated, for a variety of reasons, one of which apparently was it caused bad relations between the citizenry and police. (This is an issue in compulsory ID card countries. A friend of mine told me that he has seen Israeli guards throw down onto the ground the ID cards of Palestinians. There, it's used as a form of intimidation (to request someone's card, and then to throw it down once it has been shown.) You could write a book about the psychological effect of ID cards, how they make people overconfident (take a look at the movie Catch me if You Can for an example of this...an ID card can cause more security problems than they solve) and in other instances ID cards can be used for intimidation (your usual Nazi or Soviet examples go here, in addition to that Israeli one above.)

To this date, no Anglo-Saxon country has a cumpulsory ID card--different way of evaluating civil liberties versus government needs in Anglo-Saxon nations. (The province of Ontario is sort of an exception to this however, in having a photo based health insurance card.) England has only had a photo driver's license since 1998 (and I understand that most driver's still don't have the photo license...the photo was added not because the British though they needed it, but because the EU wanted a European-wide standardization of driving documents.) Canada, New Zealand and Australia only begun added photos to driver's licenses fairly recently (last ten years) and in several Canadian provinces and US states, you can still get a non-photo driver's license.

As I like to say, if you have a country with an ID card that isn't being widely counterfeited, most likely it isn't doing anything that justifies its existence. On the other hand, if it really is all that useful, it's being widely counterfeited. It's a pretty ugly catch-22 to get yourself into. (Each country's experience with ID cards is different, the US experience with them is high fraud with age identification (due to the drinking age) and financial transactions...whereas the country I was born in, Costa Rica, has high fraud due to immigration (the card notes if the person has the right to work in Costa Rica.)

I wrote a pretty substantial document concerning photo ID cards and fraud, it's available at http://www.njlicense.org/SDT.shtml.


User currently offlineQANTASFOREVER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3546 times:

Guten Abend. Wo ist Ihr Personalausweis? Produzieren Sie Ihre Ausweispapiere sofort!!!

Yeah - photo drivers licenses ok. But Identity Cars? It's a bit much.

What do you do if you aren't carrying one? Your are brought into custody?


User currently offlineAirlinelover From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 5580 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3531 times:

Cptkrell- Well, there's no I.D. card in the U.S. either

Each of the 50 states does offer a State ID card, not mandatory, but true. There IS no "National" ID card for the US..

CHris



Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
25 JAL777 : Why do you need an ID card on you at all times? The "authorities" have no right to ask you who you are... and should you do something that requires th
26 Post contains images Andreas : Qantasforever: Guten Abend. Wo ist Ihr Personalausweis? Produzieren Sie Ihre Ausweispapiere sofort!!! Not bad but a clear proof that translating word
27 Post contains images QANTASFOREVER : Andreas, You got me I bow down to your bi-linguality. QFF
28 Post contains images Andreas : Oh thank you very much *deeplyblushing*!!! You have no idea just how multi-lingual I get someti...ahem..*cough*, well thanks anyway
29 Banco : I'm not suggesting you do get asked to show your ID often, Andreas. But the issue is whether the state has a right to demand that its citizens should
30 Post contains images Andreas : Banco are we starting to have a little Andreas-complex ? You feel addressed by everything I say , of course I fell deeply honoured, only in this case,
31 Post contains images Banco : Now, don't get big headed, Andreas, I knew who you were addressing, I just wanted you to be clear that I wasn't suggesting that my dislike of ID cards
32 Post contains images Andreas : Ahem...ah yes .. As for the topic: yes that is exactly the point. Ín Germany we do not see this as an issue really, therefore we have no such discuss
33 Cptkrell : Airlinelover...I was aware that most (if not all) states in the U.S. had optional personal ID cards for those that do not drive, however, again, that
34 JAL777 : Authorities might have every right to ask... and I have every right to keep my mouth shut!! A force ID card is forcing someone against their Miranda r
35 Cptkrell : I would suggest then, JAL777, that you also have the right to be taken to jail where you can sit remaining silent while the police take care of other
36 JAL777 : Cptkrell... yes I have that right.
37 Ben : I am not a criminal. I have never done anything illegal in my life (except maybe carrying an extra bottle of wine back from holidays and speeding occa
38 DC-10 Levo : Should get mine in the next couple of weeks. You get it around 3 months before your 16th Birthday in the UK. DC-10
39 Ben : Should get mine in the next couple of weeks. You get it around 3 months before your 16th Birthday in the UK. WTF? We don't have one yet, DC-10 Levo. T
40 Post contains links Jimbobjoe : Good time to answer this question...I forgot to address it... The supreme court case prohibiting the police from just randomly asking for ID is Kolend
41 Post contains images Banco : I think DC10-Levo is getting confused with being issued with his National Insurance number, Ben. That's not exactly the same, it's about tax!
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