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Say No To Universal Health Care  
User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 46
Posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1872 times:

Interesting article.

http://www.sgvtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,205~12238~1800641,00.html

Illegals affect health delivery

(BTW, I've been saying this all along. And nothing that they 'effect' is anything good)

FOUR hospital administrators with whom we spoke about the critical need for health-delivery reform believe the United States, like Canada, may be forced into a universal or single-payer system.

Certainly the California Legislature is moving the state toward that eventuality with the approval of a sweeping medical insurance bill that would essentially make employers responsible for 90 percent of their employees' health benefit costs.

Recent strikes over health-care illustrate the importance of these benefits. To many employees, fully-paid benefits are preferred to straight salary increases. Health-care costs have risen steadily and show no signs of leveling off, making health benefits a top employment issue.

Hospital administrators agree: The more people insured, the less impact on their ability to remain operational and still treat a reasonable number of uninsured.

Some health-care researchers place the number of uninsured in Los Angeles County at about 50 percent. Translated: With a shocking 4-1/2 million people in our region without medical coverage, the position of hospitals forced to give basically free treatment has become untenable.

But it will take more than insuring as many of those uninsured as possible to get hospitals back to some semblance of economic health.

Congress ought to take seriously a Pew Research Center for The People & The Press study that found about 82 percent of registered Republicans favor tighter immigration controls. The real surprise is the number of Democrats and independents who agree, about 76 percent of each. Rising health-care costs and crowded emergency rooms certainly could be cited as a viable reason.

Federal authorities have acknowledged the negative impact illegal immigration has had on the financial solvency of the nation's hospitals by including $1 billion in the Medicare modernization bill to reimburse hospitals for services provided to illegal immigrants.

Clearly the bulk of that funding should go to border states including California, which shoulders a disproportionate share of the cost of illegal immigration from Mexico. In fact, Southern California hospitals ought to receive additional federal aid on a temporary basis to deal with the treatment of uninsured immigrants. We'd like to see research to determine the depth of this need to recommend both the amount and length of funding.

Too, urban hospitals in cities of less than 1 million residents will receive larger Medicare payments under the newly passed legislation. Certainly any added money will help.

But HMOs, increasingly using their member "buying power' to low-ball hospital payments, ultimately end up doing a disservice to their members if hospitals are forced to cut services or close.

These health organizations must shave a little off the bottom line to increase the amount paid to hospitals to ensure the facilities stay open.

But hospitals must do more to guarantee their future. A good place to start would be with the Hospital Association of Southern California, which must become more active politically. It's clear hospitals need lobbyists in the California and federal state houses to get their message out.

Unless the problem of financial stability for hospitals is addressed through a variety of means, the insured will continue to pay more to subsidize the uninsured, creating a defacto universal care program that will quickly collapse under its own expensive and inequitable weight.

Today, we present the second in our series on the health of hospitals in our region.

Tomorrow, we look at hospital staffing.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't agree with much of this article, other than the problems that it points out. I especially do not agree with the proposed "solutions".


The answer to this issue is as simple as the problem is big:

It lies not with increased funding, hiring more staff, or mandating that companies pay for insurance.

The bottom line simple solution is this:

NO PUBLICLY FUNDED HEALTH CARE WILL BE GIVEN TO ANY PERSON IN THIS COUNTRY WHO IS HERE ILLEGALLY

That's it.

What part of ILLEGAL is unclear?

The only thing that an illegal alien deserves is imprisonment and/or a one way ticket back to their country of origin.

Period.



51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1854 times:

Matt. You are forgetting the fact that us rich, over priviledged Americans SHOULD be paying for everything for these illegals in our country. Or at least a large contingent on this board would tell us that.

User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1853 times:

My bad. As white, heterosexual males, we are to blame for every ill in history, including the shooting of Bambi's mother, genocide, hurricane Andrew, and the 1054 supernova explosion that created the Crab Nebula.

User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1849 times:

Check that, as white, hetereosexual AMERICAN males..... Don't want to fire up white, straight Euro male who always goes out of his way to pay for illegals in his country.

User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1845 times:

This thread is a lesson in fuzzyness.

Is your point against:
A) Illegal immigration
B) Public healthcare
C) Those who like clarity and don't like issues to be mixed-up, such as, for example, mixing up the Iraq invasion and the war against Al-Qaida



Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1840 times:

All of the above.

User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1840 times:

So your against clarity. Fine. No point arguing then.


Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineMbmbos From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1834 times:

Get off the cross, Matt, we need the wood!

More silly rhetoric from you, as usual. As a preemtive strike for any argument that might come from a liberal point of view, you trot out the they're-against-us-because-we're-white-males war horse.

All those years of persecution, Matt. It must be rough.

Back to the discussion at hand. Are you honestly willing to deny health care to somebody who shows up at a hospital with a serious, possibly life-threatening problem just because they don't have their green card? I think of health care as being an inalienable right.

I think everyone is entitled to fundamental health care whether they are citizens or illegal immigrants, whether they are rich or poor.

PERIOD!

(Wow! I like spelling out "period". It's so final. It's so tough!)



User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1825 times:

Lets send those illegals home.

I hope you're ready to pick strawberries and corn and lettuce and grapes; clean hotel rooms; move heavy crates, and essentially do all the unpleasant tasks that those illegals do. But why do I suspect that we will be privy to yet another whiny posting on the price increase on Big Macs and why lettuce in a Big Mac is so unnecessary.

Perhaps, with the unemployment figures still in the crapper, some of the other discriminated males on here can finally find jobs doing just the above when we pack those beleagured illegals home.

Until then, the assumption that a healthy illegal is a highly productive illegal still holds. You wouldn't want some sick Mexican coughing and sneezing over your veggies now, would you?


User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1815 times:

Are you honestly willing to deny health care to somebody who shows up at a hospital with a serious, possibly life-threatening problem just because they don't have their green card?

Absolutely.


I think everyone is entitled to fundamental health care whether they are citizens or illegal immigrants, whether they are rich or poor.

It's always easy spending someone elses money, isn't it?






[Edited 2003-12-01 19:42:18]

User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1809 times:

Jaysit, if you're going to state your distaste for the idea of 'sending illegals back', then at least have the decency to propose a solution to the consequences of letting them stay here. Don't pretend like there are no consequences either. If there weren't any, then we'd all say 'what the fuck, let them in'. But as you can see from the article, there are issues to solve, and it seems the low income Americans are the ones that get hosed first. Any ideas how you'd support your position or are you just going to say 'let em stay' and then go search for another good deed to do?


"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineMbmbos From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1799 times:

"It's always easy spending someone elses money, isn't?"

Are you talking to me or are you talking to an executive from Bechtel?

Actually, I'm spending my money. And, yes, I am willing to allow a portion of my money to be taken in the form of taxes in order to ensure that every individual in this country has the fundamental right to health care.



User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1797 times:

I hope you're ready to pick strawberries and corn and lettuce and grapes; clean hotel rooms; move heavy crates, and essentially do all the unpleasant tasks that those illegals do.

Wow, those horrible tasks. Sounds like perfect jobs for all those wonderful Welfare recipiants.

Are you honestly willing to deny health care to somebody who shows up at a hospital with a serious, possibly life-threatening problem just because they don't have their green card?

Why don't they "show up" at hospitals in their own country? Oh, thats right, because in the U.S. they get free medical care (well free for them, expensive for me), and in their own country they might not get care anywhere.


User currently offlineMbmbos From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1795 times:

Are you honestly willing to deny health care to somebody who shows up at a hospital with a serious, possibly life-threatening problem just because they don't have their green card?

Why don't they "show up" at hospitals in their own country? Oh, thats right, because in the U.S. they get free medical care (well free for them, expensive for me), and in their own country they might not get care anywhere.


And yet, you are unwilling to actually answer my question.


User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1793 times:

I already did answer it.

Now to answer your other charge, no one is stopping you from spending YOUR money for this purpose if you are so inclined.

WTF gives you the right to spend MY money?


[edit]

KROC hit the nail on the head. Let's take these multi generation Welfare couch potatoes and put THEM in the fields to pick fruits and vegetables and mopping floors. At least they'll be doing something productive instead of having baby after baby and acting as a black hole for my tax dollars.

[Edited 2003-12-01 19:55:38]

User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1784 times:

Are you honestly willing to deny health care to somebody who shows up at a hospital with a serious, possibly life-threatening problem just because they don't have their green card?

Yes, I am willing. Why should MY money go to pay for someone's treatment when they do not do anything in return for the country, like pay taxes etc? If they are in the U.S. illegally, then they are LEGAL residents of some country, so perhaps their home government should foot the bill for their medical expenses. I have no problem taking care of 'our own', but that doesn't include illegals, especially when it is my money, that I work 2 jobs to earn, that is taken in the form of taxes, then goes to pay for illegal Joe's medical bills.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1780 times:

JetService:
The provision of costly healthcare to illegals is just as important as addressing the issue of agribusiness dependence on cheap labor provided by illegals. There is an enormous underground economy that thrives and subsists on cheal illegal labor and we, the American public, forget that our cheap food products are often the result of their labor. Now, of course we cannot deny healthcare to the poor in America who have never received the benefits of health care, while at the same time taking care of illegal aliens. But kicking them out would never solve the problem, and besides I doubt if agribusiness in California or Oregon would allow it. We could increase food imports, but that would lead to the decimation of produce farms in the US.

I dont think we are talking about emergency care here. Emergency medical care is provided for everyone at public hospitals. If you're seriously burned in an aircrash, the doctors dont ask you to show your greencard. But that isnt what this is all about. We're talking about basic health care. There isnt an easy way to make illegals pay for their healthcare without without violating a whole slew of laws, but we could pass legislation that would allow illegals access to some form of healthcare while at the same time making them pay for a fraction of their ambulatory care, a fraction that would be higher than what low income Americans would have to pay.


User currently offlineMbmbos From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1779 times:

So, you're alleging that illegal immigrants are "taking" more than their "giving" to our society?

Do you have any data that backs up this claim beside your rants about how hard you work and and how immigrants make lots of babies?

It's an interesting myth.


User currently offlineCanyonBlue From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1776 times:

If someone who is illegally in this country comes into a hospital needing care due to a serious life threatening problem they WON'T be denied. Care first, ask questions later. First rule in medicine is Do No Harm, not Do Not Enter.

I can understand everyone's point of view, very interesting and passionate, BUT.......

If illegalls are coming to this country then they must want a better life. Can't blame anyone for that. I'd do the same thing in that situation. If people want illegals out then put up a bigger fence and have border guards every ten feet.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1775 times:

"Wow, those horrible tasks. Sounds like perfect jobs for all those wonderful Welfare recipiants."

You're absolutely right on that one. Now you try getting some of those welfare recipients to work. Hell, try getting some of those laid-off computer workers who lost their jobs in the last 3 years to take on those jobs.
Americans often don't have the will to work in those jobs AND agribusinesses could never pay them the ludicrously low wages they pay illegals (who incidentally work their butts off).

"Why should MY money go to pay for someone's treatment when they do not do anything in return for the country, like pay taxes etc"

I think that the wages they work at get translated into low cost agricultural goods and services. That means savings at the cash register for YOU. If this isn't a service, then I dont know what is.


User currently offlineStartvalve From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1760 times:

Funny how people miss that these people are here ILLEGALLY. This is not a difficult country to get into legally. All those migrant worker jobs should be done by welfare recipients because then they would be actually doing something for their money rather than making future welfare recipients. If these strawberry pickers and whatever still want to come here and work that can be arranged. As long as they are paying taxes then there is no reason for them to be denied health care. If they do show up at the hospital and its found they are illegal and have no means to pay they should be stabilized and deported so their own countries health care system can treat them. This will make the border patrols job easier since all they need to do is watch the hospitals along the border. Keep in mind that if these people cross the border and have a kid in the US that kid is a US citizen so the parents get to stay. We really need to do something about this because look around.. The country is full.

Be careful wishing for free healthcare. If you think it is expensive now just wait until its free and you have your taxes go up 33% and have to wait 5 days to get a prescription for some damn antibiotics for a minor cold. I guess people that never plan to have any of their own money (democrats) do not mind spending the money of those of us that work our butts off for every penny we see. Those of us who do bust our asses for our paycheck would appreciate getting to keep as much as possible rather than mailing it to Washington DC every April.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1751 times:

"I guess people that never plan to have any of their own money (democrats) do not mind spending the money of those of us that work our butts off for every penny we see."

LOL ! Here we go again - slip sliding into the twilight zone of stupidity.


User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1741 times:

Jaysit, the scope of agribusiness dependence on illegals should only dictate the rate at which a solution is implemented, not if or if not. And that's fine and dandy. But as Matt D and KROC pointed out, I'm sure that vacuum could be filled readily. Speaking of that, what criteria exactly would you think be necessary for an illegal to get their healthcare paid for? Just being an illegal? Is it automatic? I bet scores of Americans that have been rejected for Medicaid, SSI or disability will have a big problem with that.


"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineSeb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1735 times:

Having worked with a few illegals, here is my two cents:

GENERALLY, they are paid with a check and taxes are deducted from their pay. Yes, I know there are jobs where they are paid cash, but for this post, I am sticking to just the 'taxed' jobs.

Since taxes are being deducted from their pay, they are giving to the government. Here in Washington, we have sales tax to fund things like the baseball and football stadium in Seattle and the light rail system in Seattle (that has not started to be built). There is tax on liquor and tobacco and fees for things like auto licensing and state issued ID cards. While these illegals do not have papers or a green card to prove they are in this country, they are still contributing. Do they do their grocery and clothes shopping in Mexico? Nope. Right here along side me using money they earned and had their taxes deducted from just like me.

My point is: when someone can prove they contribute, no matter what country they are from, they should be able to go to hospital if the need arises and not pay anything, or very very little. I would not expect to just waltz into a hospital in Canada, Japan, Russia, Mexico or any other country and expect free health care because I don't contribute to those countries; My taxes are collected for the United States.

The point about welfare recipients getting a job scrubbing toilets or flipping burgers: not gonna happen. I have heard some of them say things like 'You would never catch me doing that job' or 'It don't pay good' so they continue to pop out kids and get something for nothing. I say reform the welfare system first.

GO CANUCKS!!



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1721 times:

Are you honestly willing to deny health care to somebody who shows up at a hospital with a serious, possibly life-threatening problem just because they don't have their green card?

Absolutely.


Matt D, would you appreciate it if your dad was a "little bit foreign looking" and got turned away from hospital because he couldn't immediatly provide proof of his citizenship?

Would you be so vehement then?


25 VonRichtofen : So I guess only homeless people and illegal immigrants use health care?
26 777236ER : Be careful wishing for free healthcare. If you think it is expensive now just wait until its free and you have your taxes go up 33% and have to wait 5
27 Ryanb741 : I think they should treat illegals if the illness is serious but they should then levy a charge for the medical treatment. This may mean sending the b
28 Ryanb741 : I agree with an earlier posting that 'free' healthcare is a myth. Sure, I can get free substandard hospital treatment if I want, and it only takes me
29 Jaysit : "But as Matt D and KROC pointed out, I'm sure that vacuum could be filled readily." Hardly. Their solutions work quite nicely as funny soundbites on a
30 KROC : Hardly. Their solutions work quite nicely as funny soundbites on a.net, but would be impossible to implement. As I've stated before, the wages paid by
31 Post contains images JetService : Hardly. Their solutions work quite nicely as funny soundbites on a.net, but would be impossible to implement. As I've stated before, the wages paid by
32 MBMBOS : Well, KROC, once again your little shoot from the hip tirades lack any factual backup. What percentage of the U.S. population is drawing welfare? One
33 KROC : And how many undocumented workers do we employ who are working for less than minimum wage? If they are 'undocumented' there genius, then I cannot answ
34 Jaysit : "Also, you can't necessarily argue the consequences on the situation per se, because once a major concession like that is made, the problem will multi
35 Jaysit : "You mean to tell me that there aren't rnough people out there that can fill these 'minial tasks' roles. Please." Actually, Kroc, there arent enough a
36 MBMBOS : 1. We have very sophisticated information gathering systems in this country that are both statistically reliable and valid. I am sure that if you put
37 JetService : MBMBOS, don't think only welfare recips would fill the void. There are plenty of pimply faced high-schoolers looking for beer money as well as plenty
38 Post contains images Superfly : JetService: There are plenty of pimply faced high-schoolers looking for beer money... Are you 'scoreing' for these teens? I remember back in high sch
39 Post contains images JetService : Superfly, I was lucky in high school. My best friend's dad always kept a full liquor cabinet and fridge full of Falstaff (Fort Wayne's finist brew ).
40 Post contains images Superfly : JetService: Falstaff beer, neighborhood girls, John Cougar Mellencamp and White Castle's burgers? Man talk about the ultimate Indiana moment! Now that
41 Startvalve : Actually in my earlier post I was not ignoring Canada, Uk, the rest of Europe. Look at the quality of their health care compared to ours. As my post s
42 Jaysit : "There are plenty of pimply faced high-schoolers looking for beer money as well as plenty of single income households looking to suppliment there VISA
43 Sebolino : Are you honestly willing to deny health care to somebody who shows up at a hospital with a serious, possibly life-threatening problem just because the
44 Matt D : So what you're saying is that I could be hauled off to jail for not stopping and administering first aid to the driver of that car I just saw flip ove
45 Post contains images JetService : Has Sierra Nevada made it's way to Fort Wayne yet? I haven't seen that around much, but I'll keep my eyes peeled. BTW, if you remember Falstaff, I bet
46 Sebolino : So what you're saying is that I could be hauled off to jail for not stopping and administering first aid to the driver of that car I just saw flip ove
47 Matt D : hell yeah I've done that. First of all, if I wasn't involved, then as far as I know, I have no legal or moral obligation to "help". Second, I've heard
48 Jaysit : "So what you're saying is that I could be hauled off to jail for not stopping and administering first aid to the driver of that car I just saw flip ov
49 Scorpio : So what you're saying is that I could be hauled off to jail for not stopping and administering first aid to the driver of that car I just saw flip ove
50 Startvalve : It is 100% legal to not help someone. It is your choice if you want to help them, in the case of an accident you must stop and if they are injured you
51 Ben : Startvalve, Understood. That's why I always carry a full first-aid kit in my car, have one at home, in my backpack and day-pack when travelling and in
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