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Human Induced Climate Change/Global Warming  
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1164 times:

Well, the thread on the EU and global warming got locked down, but I still wanted to point out that Global Warming is indeed real, and is an urgent issue that needs to be addressed now before it gets out of hand. Here's a post I made from that thread, I hope it clarifies some issues, please comment on this, CIVILLY:

***

There is no question as to what causes global warming, and it is human caused pollution. Not volcanic eruptions, not changes in the earth's orbit, but human cause pollution, mainly the burning of fossil fuels resulting in increased CO2 in the atmosphere. I'm going to base the following on stuff from my textbooks and class information from stuff that I've learned in school, specifically in my atmospheric science classes. So there won't be any online links, but I will put a reference to my source.

1. The atmospheric composition of the earth's atmosphere has about 0.03% carbon dioxide and 0.2% water vapor. We all know how much of an impact on weather the water vapor in our atmosphere has, but the amount of water vapor in our atmosphere is relatively constant. However, it has been proven with scientific data that the CO2 emissions in our atmosphere have increased steadily since measurements were first taken. Measurements have shown that the concentration of C02 in the atmosphere (in parts per million volume) has increased from about 310 in 1958 to 440 in the year 200. In the last 150 years, average global temperature has risen about one degree Celsius. This is no coincidence that the rise began with the industrial revolution and the increase of CO2 emissions. (Atmospheric Science an Introductory Survey, John Wallace and Peter Hobbs)

2. Some more statistics: From 1990-2002, here are some numbers on the increase/decrease of CO2 emissions:

USA: +1.0%
China: +2.8%
Russia: -3.3%
Japan: +1.1%
India: +4.6%
Others: +0.9%
(University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign Climate Research Group, department of atmospheric science)

3. The decrease in the Ozone is actually not the cause of CO2, but of compounds which many of you surely know about called CFC's, Chloroflorocarbons. These compounds were used extensively around the world earlier in the century in anything from industrial adhesives to the foam boxes you could get your burgers in. There are only one or two of these molecules per million Ozone molecules, but their destructive power is very high. Here's what happens:

- A Chlorine molecule from the CFC is released from photodissasociation. This chlorine molecule collides or reacts with a highly reactive Ozone molecule (O3).

Cl + 03 ----> ClO + O2 (note: this is non reversible)

- The Cl is now bonded to the single O, but this is broken down by photodissasociation from the sun's energy at the higher levels of the atmosphere, and the single O rebonds with another oxygen.

ClO + O + Energy ----> Cl + O2

- The net result is that that you have once again the Cl molecule free to destroy more ozone molecules, and you have one less ozone molecule in the process. The worst part is that the lifetime of these CFC's last up to around 100 years.
(professor Michael Schlesinger, Department of Atmospheric Sciences)

4. A common myth is that volcano's are contributors to global warming, and this is far from the truth. Rather, after a major volcanic eruption such as those seen by Mt. Pinatubo show that the gases and materials released by a volcanic eruption are prime contributors to global cooling. The main of these are sulfur dioxide particles, which convert to sulfuric acid in the atmosphere. These aerosols, combined with the large amount of ash, result in reflecting a large amount of solar radiation back out into space, resulting in a decrease of global temperatures. The eruption of El Chincon alone resulted in the release of 7 million tons of sulfur dioxide into the atmosphere. It takes about twelve months for the majority of the aerosols released by a major volcanic eruption to settle out of the atmosphere.
http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/gsfc/service/gallery/fact_sheets/earthsci/volcano.htm
http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/honors/student/volcano/global_cooling.html

I will continue this further at a later time, I have more to post, I hope most of you have found this informative.


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23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offline4holer From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 3018 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1119 times:

You can post it in as many threads as you want but it still does not make it gospel fact.

There may be some truth to some individual points in your post, but there is no such scientific consensus as you seem to have declared.



Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1114 times:

What makes you doubt that the current climate change is human induced?


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User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1111 times:

Actually I think the current scientific consensus is that human activity is causing global warming. What is in dispute is the extent and the actual mechanism.

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29800 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1106 times:

The idea that we can cause global warming is not in dispute.

What is in dispute is if it actually exists or if the we are seeing a normal cyclic temperture change.




OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1101 times:

I think many facts point to humans as the cause of global warming, and that it definitely exists.

1. There has been an increase in CO2 in the atmosphere in the last 150 years. Prior to this, the amount of CO2 was in equilbrium, with sinks in the ground and in plants. So why the sudden increase?

2. The increase of CO2 is correlated with the industrial age and the industrial revolution, with it the burning of fossil fuels. These fuels have served as carbon sinks, which is why it is now in the atmosphere.

3. The increase in global temperature has also correlated with the increase in CO2 emissions into the atmosphere. While CO2 only consists of .03% of the atmosphere, it is the second most important greenhouse gas (after water vapor)

You can just take these as coincidences, but I think it shows that there is a direct relation to humans releasing carbon dioxide into the atmosphere at increased levels, and the increase in temperature.

I've shown that volcanos are not a cause of global warming, and once I find more information, also that the sun and the earth's orbit truly do not consistute a large amount of the temperature variation that we are seeing.



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User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1093 times:

Solution to all this is much simpler than they're making it out to be: create a cleanburning fuel out of unwanted AOL CDs... problem solved Big grin

User currently offlineDc10guy From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 2685 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1084 times:

Global warming ...Yeah right. The reason for draughts and floods and hurricane's and this so called "global warning" is because god is upset with the way things are going down here on earth. George Bush will turn things around and god will make all these bad things go away.


Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
User currently offlineCicadajet From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1079 times:

Well, in any event, it was not "Bush" that killed Kyoto in the US contrary to popular belief of this forum. Kyoto would've been Dead on Arrival in the US Congress anyway.



User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1068 times:

First of all Global Warming is a misnomer, it has little to do with the warming of the planet and everything to do with the increasing frequency of extremes such as warming, cooling, floods, droughts, etc.

An analogy would be a mass bobbing from a mount on the ceiling; it will have a semi-constant frequency as it moves. What if we interfere with it by knocking it on its side or yanking at it? Well, chaos for one. We cannot expect it to go on as normal. Earth has had its natural frequencies, but somewhere along the line, maybe as much as 100,000 years ago we started to "knock the bobbing mass" so to speak. If we did not do it, how bad was it when dinosaurs ruled the Earth? I am not being funny either. My point is that we learned how to do things that ended up harming our environments and it took a bit long to stop us from doing it of to have a care in the world about our surroundings.

What Smith said to Morpheus in Matrix 1, even though it is a movie, it very true:

"every mammal on this planet instinctually develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move into an area and you multiply, and multiplying until ever natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You are a plague. "

In 1997, my cultural geography teacher showed us two slides on the overhead, one was a night shot of Los Angeles via satellite and the other was a microscopic photo of a cancer cell. Both looked the same.

Now, I am in no way suggesting anything other than to view the world outside oneself, because there is no way one could understand or believe in this fact without it. So what do we do about? Probably nothing, eventually we will die out, soon we will use up our resources and have nowhere else to go, that is just how it works and soon this global warming issue will by-pass and become some other species' problem.



Which is how we think: life is a business of others. Iraq is now the US's business. Whether a teen chooses to abort their pregnancy is now our concern. The list goes on. However, no one really cares for the Earth, as we do not view it as alive. If you could ask, any butterfly that lands on a tree to rest, if they think the tree is alive, it will laugh aloud. Why? Think about it; how long have they spent thinking about that as opposed to how long they have been live? Butterflies live and die in 3 days; it will tell you that it has always looked the same. Most change in the atmosphere is always slow and beyond human memory, we really cannot expect people to believe we are "hurting the environment" if that is at all possible.



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1057 times:

Lehpron,

I disagree with you. Global warming is not a misnomer, it is real, and it is happening. It is no coincidence that the Earth's average temperature has increased in the last 150 years, coinciding with the industrial revolution and the consistent burning of fossil fuels.

This warming has seen diminished glaciers, pieces of the ice caps breaking apart, lakes drying up, ground water dissapearing, etc.



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User currently offlineSpaceman From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1052 times:

I think what we need now is a new ice age, I think one is due, but maybe global warming will alter that too.

User currently offlineBobrayner From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2003, 2227 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1040 times:

First of all Global Warming is a misnomer, it has little to do with the warming of the planet and everything to do with the increasing frequency of extremes such as warming, cooling, floods, droughts, etc.

No. Global warming has everything to do with the planet getting warmer.

However, this increase in overall temperature tends to drive weather systems more strongly, which means more extremes - more wind, more rain, more heat, more cold - in particular areas. However, any such local cooling is outweighed by warming in other places.

In 1997, my cultural geography teacher showed us two slides on the overhead, one was a night shot of Los Angeles via satellite and the other was a microscopic photo of a cancer cell. Both looked the same.

Maybe the OHP was broken. Schools often have difficulty funding the purchase & maintenance of equipment.  Smile

Earth has had its natural frequencies, but somewhere along the line, maybe as much as 100,000 years ago we started to "knock the bobbing mass" so to speak.

How much could we have knocked it back then, given that population and per capita energy consumption have grown exponentially?

Most change in the atmosphere is always slow and beyond human memory

As a substitute for human memory, we have ice cores, palaeobotany, &c.

The Earth has lots of negative feedback mechanisms - we might expect one to come to our rescue, so we could reach a new equilibrium, surely? Well, lots of ice is melting, which lowers albedo, which increases warming further...



Cunning linguist
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1029 times:

Bobraynor,

You brought up another interesting point I failed to address. With global warming increasing, you have a melting of the ice caps which decreases the Earth's total albedo, meaning more energy is absorbed. Furthermore, with the increased temperature, you're going to get more water vapor in the atmposphere, which is another greenhouse gas. So it contributes to other factors as well.



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User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29800 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1029 times:

Sounds like a worsening cycle from that description.....

Oh well, better enjoy life while it lasts.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineStratofish From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 1051 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1015 times:

"Sounds like a worsening cycle from that description....."
It's kind of a cycle that spins it's way thru fixed points. You alter one (eg. carbonoxides pollution level in air combined with reforestring) you can change it. But at the moment you are right.

I had promised another member of the forums something like what Tbar said on here in a different thread a few days back, unfortunately I have been too busy, yet.

If this thread is still around on monday I should be able to post some graphics on the topic which should shed more light on this and may be a little more accurate than those: http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/climate/climatetrends.jsp
and http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ads/wwwnscom/pointroll.htm?ad=702S20031028185124&pub=nwscntst&code=no&redir=$CTURL$&bu=x227727066



The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1009 times:

So.....should I continue to water my lawn?

I can leave the airconditioner on and leave the door open for 5 or 6 minutes if that would help.....


User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1002 times:

I'm missing your humor JeffM.


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User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21470 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks ago) and read 989 times:

Global climate changes are tricky business... and scientists are beginning to understand more of the interactions between the different factors.

One of them is that the increased energy in the atmosphere can - and with increasing likelyhood will - lead to major regional disturbances... Increased frequency and strength of hurricanes in some regions, rapidly expanding deserts in others, and some rather surprising effects in others again.

For Europe, the gulf stream is essential for the relatively mild climate despite its northerly location. The gulf stream, although it transports warm water northwards, is actually driven by the ice in the northern ocean. The ongoing decrease in the northern polar ice cap and its peripheral regions is already beginning to weaken the "motor" of the gulf stream. Should it stutter and ultimately fail, the warming effect of global pollution will probably not be enough to keep Europe from falling back to the equivalent of a borderline alaskan climate in the course of a few decades.

Ignoring threats of this order of magnitude would be downright idiotic, no matter if it´s a regional ice age or a steady string of devastating hurricanes that you´re about to face.

"I don´t see no global warming, dude! Get out of my way or I´ll run you over!" Doesn´t cut it any more. The "stupid defense" can´t be an option for a nation that prides itself on its scientific achievements (and with some justification).


User currently offlineHartsfieldboy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 552 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 981 times:

First off, there is no consensus about what is causing the earth's temerpature to increase.

Secondly, you can talk about the last 150 years for hours and hours on end, and you'll still miss the most important FACT about earth's recent climate:

From about AD 1400 until AD 1900, the earth was in the Little Ice Age (look it up), where the average temperatures were far lower than the years preceding AD 1400. Since the Little Ice Age ended, obviously temperatures had to go up. We are currently in the transistion phase for whatever long term climate the earth has waiting for us. The industrial revolution happened to start around the same time the Little Ice Age ended, but they have NOTHING to do with each other. Our pollution may PARTLY contribute to global warming, but it is nowhere near the sole reason for it. The earth is an extremely powerful system that can correct itself no matter how humans try to modify it (and it has before with either gradual or castostrophic results).

And finally, the most important question that needs to be asked but probably won't be answered: What datum are global warming believers going by? What is the earth's "ideal" climate? The earth's climate has NEVER been at a constant so by what standard should we hold to earth to? What If I decided to go by the standard of 10,000 years ago? I guess that means the earth's coastline was destroyed thousands of years ago by the incredibly high sea level we now have caused by melted glaciers and ice caps. It's insane how the ocean has creeped up on the continential shelf over these past thousands of years.

Personally, I believe that we humans are giving ourselves too much credit.


User currently offlineStratofish From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 1051 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 975 times:

"Personally, I believe that we humans are giving ourselves too much credit."
What a great way to escape every thought of responsibility.  Insane



The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
User currently offlineHartsfieldboy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 552 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 964 times:

Stratofish- I'm a civil engineering major with a focus on sustainability and some environmental engineering, I have studied and worked on practical solutions to certain civil/environmental problems with my professors. One of my profs just filed for a patent application on a way to cleanup contaminated groundwater that is several times cheaper and faster than conventional methods. My school, Georgia Tech, is at the forefront of sustainable research and applications. I plan on becoming a Construction Engineer after I graduate next year, and you'll be happy to know that people like me are graduating with sustainability burned into their brains and being in those positions, because we are the ones that will physically change the way humans operate.

What have you done? And what about the rest of my post? Since there were no comments on it, I guess I'm correct? I like I said, my one question can't be answered.


User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 962 times:

Hartsfieldboy,

I agree. We are taking to much credit for this.

The fact is that there have been "global warmning" periods in prehitoric times. This is not the first time this has happened.


User currently offlineStratofish From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 1051 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 955 times:

Hartsfield:
Yes, you re correct, there has never been a constant climate on earth. There have been colder and warmer periods.
Still, the consensus among scientists (rechecked that with my profs) is that humans indeed contribute to the effect of warming and not just by small accounts.

As for the responsibility comment of yours: you were simply implying something like:"Well, there could be another reason for it which is all natural, so why bother thinking about the potential wrongs in my doing." It's simply much too "blueeyed" as we say over here.

"and you'll be happy to know that people like me are graduating with sustainability burned into their brains and being in those positions, because we are the ones that will physically change the way humans operate."
Then lets pursue the goal (among many) of reducing those CO² emissions.

"What have you done?"
Kind of irelevant but let's see: I am currently majoring in Geography with a focus on economical geography but I still have to devote myself to some studies in physical geography (which includes climatology to a certain degree) and plan to graduate over traffic-management (read: reducing it), I try to recycle, I use public transport or my bike (the one with pedals) whenever possible and I VOTE GREEN which means I pressure my gov to include ecology in it's thinking and acting.



The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
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