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Attention Quebec Bashers!  
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4976 posts, RR: 51
Posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1050 times:

Ahem....

The news today out of Canada.com is that http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealgazette/story.asp?id=F3CB7F89-47DB-4FBE-B7F3-E0B80063352D

Quebec has been by far the no.1 producer of jobs in North America for the last 3 months.

The gap between employment rates between Montreal and Toronto ahs been cut in half, and Montreal's unemployment rate is now 1% higher than Toronto's.

Yet on this board, I recall literally years of bashing .. poor economic forecasts.

One users mentionned that Quebec would likely have the "poorest" performance, this according to predictions from the Conference Board of Toronto.

Quebec has produced more jobs than the USA combined for the year 2003 cummulative... now that cant be good, given that our population is about 35 times smaller  Big thumbs up (No USA bashing here, much love and respect here!)....

Just wanted to ensure that those who bash, have their crow tonight  Big thumbs up

Best Regards,
Mark

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCommander_Rabb From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 771 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1023 times:

Quebec, that's in Canada right?
 Smile


User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1003 times:

Thanks... I'm sure we all really care. But thanks any way. Enjoy your job.



User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1001 times:

Prosperity does not happen in 3 months. Quebec remains one of the poorest jurisdictions in North America with per capita GDP only 90% of the Cdn average, which itself is below the US avg.

The following article/study shows how far Quebec has fallen behind in the last 40 years. Hence, your recent "3 month job growth" is a mere blip...it's irrelevant.

If providing true (but unflattering) commentary about Quebec is bashing, then I guess I'm bashing.  Insane

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=nr&id=565

Quebec Should Be a Leader, Not a Laggard, in Prosperity and Jobs
Contact(s):
Fred McMahon, Director of the Centre for Globalization Studies
The Fraser Institute, Tel (604) 714-4569
Email: fredm@fraserinstitute.ca

Filip Palda, Senior Fellow
The Fraser Institute, Tel (514) 990-5204
Email: Filip_Palda@enap.ca

Release Date: November 24, 2003

Montreal, QC - Decades of bad public policy have left Quebecers poorer and with unemployment levels higher than they need to be. Those are the conclusions of a new Fraser Institute study Quebec Prosperity: Taking the Next Step

“Most people don’t realize how poorly Quebec actually performs when compared to similar jurisdictions,” says Fred McMahon, the study’s author and senior analyst at The Fraser Institute. Of the major industrial provinces and US states, Quebec has by far the worst record in job and wealth creation.

“Looked at another way,” McMahon notes, “if Quebec were an independent nation, it would be the 6th poorest among advanced OECD nations, ahead of only South Korea, Portugal, Greece, New Zealand, and Spain.”

Yet, it shouldn’t be this way. “Quebec has a large, urbanized, industrious, well-educated work force. It sits next door to the world’s most vibrant and richest market. It is on one of the planet’s greatest natural transportation networks, the St. Lawrence/Great Lakes system,” McMahon notes. “Normally, this would be a recipe for immense prosperity and low unemployment – not the reverse.”

The paper argues that governments in Quebec have over-taxed and over-regulated the people of Quebec, inhibiting their ability to create jobs and wealth. The government has tried to manage the economy itself, something that has never led to economic success.

"The people of Quebec are among the most highly taxed in Canada -- more highly taxed than many in the United States or, for that matter, Mexico -- but it’s hard to argue they enjoy some of the best government services in North America,” says Filip Palda, senior fellow at The Fraser Institute. “The Quebec government should get out of the way and allow Quebecers to build their own future."

Highlights:


Quebec has failed to close the gap with average economic activity in the rest of Canada. In 1961, Quebec’s per capita GDP was 90 percent of the Canadian average. It’s still about 90 percent of the Canadian average.


Far from catching up, job creation in Quebec consistently under performs job creation in Ontario and the Canadian provincial average. Since 1990, job creation across Canada has been nearly 50 percent higher than in Quebec.


Total government spending (as a percentage of the economy) in Quebec surpasses that in any US state or industrialized province. Quebec’s spending is exceeded only by Manitoba and the four Atlantic Provinces, where spending is heavily subsidized by various federal programs.


Quebec, along with Prince Edward Island, ranks at the bottom of the ratings for economic freedom in North America. Economic freedom is a key driver of growth and prosperity in North America.


Recommendations

To live up to its economic potential -- and provide a more prosperous life for its citizens with improved employment opportunities -- Quebec should:


Reduce expenditures, with an immediate goal of becoming competitive with the size of government in Ontario and a longer-term goal of becoming competitive with industrialized US states.


Reduce the tax burden faced by the people of Quebec. Here again, the immediate goal should be to become competitive with Ontario with the longer-term goal of becoming competitive with US states.


Reorganize its tax structure to make use of economically efficient taxes and reduce use of inefficient taxes. A good first step would be the elimination of the corporate capital tax.


Simplify the tax structure; one option would be to move to a single tax as Alberta has.


Increase flexibility in the labour market. Employees and employers should have more freedom in dealing with each other and with unions.





Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineCptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 989 times:

Well, I certainly hope Quebec well in coming around to the real world (unless it's just a temporary blip on the screen as others have suggested). Regards...Jack


all best; jack
User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 984 times:

Thanks for that info. We were all waiting on pins and needles for it.

Signed, Nobody


User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 969 times:

Prosperity does not happen in 3 months. Quebec remains one of the poorest jurisdictions in North America with per capita GDP only 90% of the Cdn average, which itself is below the US avg.


More "Frasier Institute" rhetoric. I think the Frasier Instutite has full time writers to bash Quebec. Anything from this "right wing think tank" should be taken with a grain of salt as they represent an extremist view. Don't take anything these guys say (or "spew") without researching it yourself.

Quebec contains probably the most misunderstood culture and people in North America. English Canada refuses to recognize the rich historical significance of the French decendants and Americans seem to just plain hate Quebecers because they look and sound "foreign" to them.

I've spent alot of time in the region and have taken the time to learn about its history. I suggest those who chose to post negatively do a little research themselves...and I hope that the powers that be recognize that KROC's contribution to this thread is about as irresponsible as a moderator's message can get.

Aren't the moderators supposed to detect and prevent flamebait? And NOT provide it? Aren't they supposed to moderate, and not escalate?



User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4976 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 962 times:

Montreal and Quebec have consistently outperformed the TOronto economy for the last 3 years. Over 300,000 jobs have been produced in the last 3 years in Quebec, which is more than any other state/province in North America.

Unfortunately the Frasier loving YYZ717 has lost yet another rhetoric battle.

Mark


User currently offlineCptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 954 times:

I can only relate from personal experiences (in the 1980s and early 90s), not from heresay. My visits to Quebec were, at best, very uncomfortable because of the locals. I should think that it was THEIR percerption of Americans that caused tension rather than the other way around, as I (and we) made extended efforts to be courteous visitors. Sorry, I won't choose to visit again (and my company chose to close down a major facility, too, although I believe - and hope - business relations are currently somewhat better).

In the context that Airplay professes, I would opine that it is the folks in Quebec who are overly centrist, even extremist, and misunderstanding of others' cultures. Kind regards...Jack



all best; jack
User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 949 times:

My visits to Quebec were, at best, very uncomfortable because of the locals.......I would opine that it is the folks in Quebec who are overly centrist, even extremist, and misunderstanding of others' cultures.

This is quite a common comment. Many visitors fully expect Quebecers to conform to what is percieved as the North American status quo when it comes to personal interaction. If Quebecers don't bend over backward to understand and speak English, and accomodate every whim that visitors are accustomed to in other regions in North America they are considered inhospitable. I savour the difference in our cultures not condemn and fear it.

I wonder how a francophone Quebecer would be received if he suddenly found himself in an average US city? I would hazard a guess that he/she would be expected to conform to the local culture before anyone would interact. Would that mean that the visiting Quebecer should consider the locals "misunderstanding of others' cultures."??


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4976 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 939 times:

Cptkrell,

Your experience is isolated... but if you were outside the Montreal metro, I wouldnt be surprised.

Mark


User currently offlineCptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 939 times:

Airplay; if you actually read my statement before knee-jerking, you will see that I qualified my impressions by stating that I (we) made even extra efforts to be courteous visitors (as I always do when visiting another country).

When I am in another country I make sure that I try my best to adhere to their cultures, laws, courtesies, try my best to communicate using their language, etc. I might interject that as an American in France, I found the French populace to be some of the nicest, friendliest, helping people I have ever met. Not so in Quebec. Kind regards...Jack



all best; jack
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4976 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 932 times:

"Not so in Quebec"

With all due respect sir, I realize you had a rought time, not everybody has a pleasant time.

But the Quebec (more specifically the Montreal and Quebec City regions) are huge American tourist spots. They most definitely cater to their needs in such a way, that the tourism numnbers continue to soar on a yearly basis (www.tourisme-montreal.org) .... I have been to pretty much every major urban market in North America, and I have not yet met a friendlier city than Montreal/Vancouver, in my opinion of course.

Mark


User currently offlineCptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 922 times:

"...I have not yet met a friendlier city than Montreal/Vancouver, in my opinion of course."

Well, Mark, I really LOVE Vancouver and revisit when possible. But, Montreal and Vancouver are sort of like Buffalo and L.A. proximity-wise, eh? Like I said, after three visits to Quebec, I'll choose not to go again as opposed to hoping for yet another opportunity for Vancouver (or across the river to Windsor, for that matter). Regards...Jack



all best; jack
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4976 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 918 times:

Cptkrell,

well its unfortunate.. ill bet the next time youll come, youd have a blast.


mark


User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 15, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 915 times:

Jack will probably say ... 3 strikes and you're out. LOL


"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 904 times:

I have been to pretty much every major urban market in North America, and I have not yet met a friendlier city than Montreal/Vancouver, in my opinion of course.

Anecdotal evidence from 20yo YUL'er. It must be true.  Insane

Let's talk about Quebec's economic "growth" when they start contributing to Canada's national finances (as do Alberta & Ontario), instead of drawing on them.

Gee whiz..... does the above comments make me a racist again?  Insane



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4976 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 897 times:

"Anecdotal evidence from 20yo YUL'er. It must be true. "

-No... from Conde Nest which ranked Montreal the 2nd best place to visit in Canada after Quebec City. Obviously they would know a little more than right wing YYZ717.

"Let's talk about Quebec's economic "growth" when they start contributing to Canada's national finances (as do Alberta & Ontario), instead of drawing on them."

-I dont know whats clear enough.





User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 18, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 897 times:

-I dont know whats clear enough.

When equalization payments to Quebec above & beyond all the taxes that Quebecers pay, stop. The same applies to the other 7 have-not provinces also....but Quebec is the most subsidized province of all.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4976 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 886 times:

Per capita we are the least subsidized... and how close is Ontario to becoming a "have-not" province also?

C'mon now.  Smile

Mark


User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 865 times:

When equalization payments to Quebec above & beyond all the taxes that Quebecers pay, stop. The same applies to the other 7 have-not provinces also....but Quebec is the most subsidized province of all.


http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/FTPTe.html

It appears that the "most subsidized" province changes to fit YYZ717's mood. A while ago it was Manitoba...

If you want to define the worth of each province by the amount of transfer payments or subsidies they receive without looking at the background and the budgets of each province, you are doing a disservice to our Federation.

To blindly declare that Alberta and Ontario are the chief finiancial contributors to the country, you expose just how little you know about this country.

How about the huge amount of money lost to the rest of us "have-not" because Alberta HAS mad cow and Ontario HAS SARS...

http://www.gov.on.ca/FIN/english/media/2003/nre-relief.htm

But heres the difference. Most Canadians are glad to further the well being of the federation by helping Alberta and Ontario through their financial woes. YYZ717 doesn't. He is truly anti-Federation and anti-Canadian.

Anecdotal evidence from 20yo YUL'er. It must be true.

Typical typical typical.....attack and undermine the messenger, and ignore the message....





[Edited 2003-12-07 16:49:59]

[Edited 2003-12-07 16:50:39]

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 831 times:

Quebec is the largest recipient of transfer payments in total. On a per capita basis, it's NF or PEI...not sure which. I don't feel like looking it up right now.

YYZ717 doesn't. He is truly anti-Federation and anti-Canadian.

Whatever Airplay. How sad.  Insane






Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4976 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 803 times:

Neil...

Can you just admit that things have improved?



User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 23, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 802 times:

Can you just admit that things have improved?

Yes, absolutely Mark. The job creation in Quebec in great. I hope it continues. Honestly.

But don't treat it as proof that Quebec is booming. It remains with a per capita income only 90% the Cdn average. Quebec is merely catching up to the Cdn average with respect to the unem rate, pc income, etc.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4976 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 801 times:

Fair enough..

*filler*


25 Qb001 : First, the Fraser Institute is, at best, a set of preconceived conclusions looking for facts. Nobody here took it seriously, as it was filled with so
26 AC320 : Yes, but other "reforms" of that era too are part of what set Quebec back in the first place and continue to have an adverse effect, but not as much a
27 Yyz717 : With nearly 25% of the population and the industrial base, Quebec gets less than 15% of the federal spending in R&D and in Defense. Quebec has just un
28 Qb001 : So whatever Quebec is being "short changed" on R+D and defense, it more than makes up in other fed govt programs. Wrong. Unemployment insurance is alw
29 Yyz717 : Funny you never hear any complaints from Ontario because it gets more than its share of Federal R&D and defense spending. Wonder why... Because Ont re
30 Qb001 : Because Ont remains shortchanged. What a joke. Ontario gets way freaking more than its fair share in structuring investment from the Federal governmen
31 Yyz717 : Again, 1G$ in unemployment is not the same as 1G$ in R&D spendings. Actually, it's exactly the same. Both have the same multiplier effect, and both ar
32 Qb001 : Actually, it's exactly the same. Both have the same multiplier effect Are you serious? Is this what you learned in school? So, to you, having 1G$ inve
33 Yyz717 : So, to you, having 1G$ invested in building a top-notch research facility that will employ dozens of well-paid, top scientists, who will spread new te
34 Qb001 : The multiplier effect is the same for ALL federal tax spends. You are confusing multiplier effect with structuring effect. I guarantee a revolution in
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