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Am I A Closet Liberal?  
User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 48
Posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 980 times:

I sometimes find myself wondering that very question. I'll come back to that in a minute. But a more important question I want to ask is: who should I support for President in 2004?

Although I've been a lifelong Republican, I cannot and will not vote for Bush this time around. Here's why.


Although I'm sure he is a decent and honest man personally, IMO, his administration has been a disaster. Also, it is my opinion that John Ashcroft (a man who lost an election to a corpse) is a very bitter man and has an axe to grind over God knows what.

I also hold the opinion that Don Rumsfeld is suffering from a Napoleon complex, if not outright "little dick" syndrome. I've never seen a man with a bigger chip on his shoulder or a contemptuous view of humanity.

Those two, I want to see thrown out at all costs. Between them, and Bush's creation of the TSA and Homeland Security agencies, they have absolutely eviscerated and decimated the Constitution and our Civil liberties.

Personally, I don't see what either of those two agencies have done other than create two more bloated and inefficient bureaucracies and create this illusion of "safety". And why is it that every time a new poll comes out that says Bush's approval ratings are down, is a new "terror alert" issued, stating that another Chernobyl type accident or 9/11 catastrophe imminent? Then a few days go by, nothing happens, and it's back to normal.

This coming from the party of "Freedom and Courage" and "smaller government".

Although I am a huge supporter of the Capitalist system, the amount of nepotism, corruption, and cronyism that is being emitted from this Administration is reeking like a beached catfish on an August afternoon.

and don't even get me started on the latest trend of corporations moving jobs over to countries where they don't even have a customer base.

9 million people have lost work since Bush has taken office.

9 million.


I realize that he is not directly responsible for this mess-I blame greedy and shortsigted and inept Management and stockholders more than anything else, as well as inevitable downturns that are a part of our system-but Bush has done little or nothing about it. His Laissez-Faire approach to the economy while simultaneously creating a de facto dictatorship, I have a real problem with.

That being said however, I remain vehemently opposed to any kind of Social programs. I don't think that anyone is entitled to anything that they didn't earn.

I have a healthy and frequent sex life with my loving girlfriend, I understand the importance of a healthy sex life and the connection between that and overall mental and physical health, but I still bristle whenever I see a risqué TV show or magazine picture. I also am not too keen on sex education in schools.

As for abortion, I'll just let the protestors whack each other with their signs and mail their letter bombs back and forth and leave it at that.

As for gay "rights", I am still on the fence. On one hand, I feel that we should "live and let live". Also, given the fact that since the 'traditional' family has decayed to the core in the last generation, gay couples couldn't possibly screw things up worse than we "straights" have. But on the other hand, I do believe in God and, well......we all know how He feels about Gays.

I guess the only issue I have with gays is the fringe view-that is the whole in your face "We're queer and we're here"....."you have to accept us but we don't have to accept you" mentality.

I also firmly believe that hemp should be legalized and the legal drinking age brought down to age 18. Either that, or the Age Of Adulthood moved to 21.


So getting back to the original question of this topic: who can I support next year? Given the fact that the country is split almost perfectly down the middle in terms of political ideology, I have one of two choices: I can vote for Bush, despite the fact that I do not have any support for him due to the fact that the country has gone straight down the commode since he's taken office. So does this mean that I may be at least on some level, a "closet" Liberal?

But on the other hand, I don't want to get mixed up with the Socialized Whatever Is Good, Affirmative Action, Bra Burning, and Tree Hugging crowd, which collectively make up the Other Side either.

I certainly don't want to NOT vote.

But I just don't know what to do.


36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 23
Reply 1, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 971 times:

You listen to the main stream media WAY too much.


"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 48
Reply 2, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 969 times:

You couldn't possibly have read and understood what I'm saying in that short of time.

Any serious replies?


User currently offlineCovert From Ghana, joined Oct 2001, 1445 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 961 times:

Too long for me to read, but more power to you!

covert



thank goodness for TCAS !
User currently offlineDLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 961 times:

Matt D, it seems as though you have become the truest form of Liberal: A moderate. One who doesn't care which side of the fence he has to be on because "that's what republicans/democrats do." One who will think outside the boundaries of his own party and look to himself and his ideals to make decisions in a smart and calculated process. Congradulations, you have made my respected users list.

DLKAPA


User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 959 times:

Matt D- this is the age of short attention spans, and when faced with long posts, many people, (myself included sometimes) just can't be bothered to decipher it all. So maybe you ought to make short posts on one subject, not long, rambling ones as above. Just a friendly suggestion.....

User currently offlineSleekjet From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2045 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 948 times:

Matt: If indeed you believe in God, commit yourself to your wonderful woman and marry her! Start a "traditional" family and experience the joy that it brings!


II Cor. 4:17-18
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 941 times:

Excuse me while I clean up the vomit after reading that last post....

OK, done.

Matt. Here's the problem: you're too hung up on labels. Nothing is black or white. Just because you have some beliefs that have traditionally been associated with "liberalness" doesn't really mean anything. It just means those are your beliefs. And you need to prioritize what issues are most important to you and support the candidate, regardless of party affiliation, that most closely aligns with those issues. That's what I try to do.



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineVafi88 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3116 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 925 times:

MattD - you're not a closet democrat... You're a republican who sees something other than *oh he's a republican - so I'll vote for him* (much like B757300)

You look at his administration, and then make your pick.

Mo powa to ya!



I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
User currently offline777YYC From Canada, joined May 2000, 744 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 925 times:

That would plant you firmly in the Libertarian-Right area of the political compass. The neo-con takeover of the Republican Party has moved it firmly into the Authoritarian-Right.
Me being Libertarian-Left, we see pretty close on social issues but miles apart on economic issues.
You'd probably be best off with the Libertarian Party. If not, vote for Clark or Dean.  Big thumbs up


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 10, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 894 times:

Matt D:
You’re not a closet liberal; you’re a God damn liberal!  Laugh out loud

Just kidding! Big grin

Seriously though, you are an independent thinker that's above falling in line with the W Bush administration. I am not sure if the label 'conservative' is appropriate for George W Bush. As you pointed out above, W Bush has increased the size of government and has increased government spending. Doesn’t that contradict conservative values?

There are many Republicans that think like you but you don't hear too much about them. In fact, there is a Republican challenging W Bush in the GOP Presidential primaries and he is also a Texan. Congressman Ron Paul is disgusted with W Bush for the exact reasons you pointed out above.
He doesn't have a chance in hell of winning or even getting attention but I would like to see how many GOP voters will break ranks.
Hell I'd vote for the guy just for having the balls to speak out against King George and carrying the torch of true conservatism. I am uneasy with selective conservatism and selective liberalism.

Keep in mind, Howard Dean isn't a 'Bra Burning, Tree Hugging type' and he supports the 2nd. Amendment. If Dean were to become President, I doubt he will push a leftist social agenda that conservatives fear.
Howard Dean nor Wesley Clark would govern like dictators nor full their cabinets with nuts with chips on there shoulder.

God will forgive you for voting Democrat Matt D. Big grin



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3333 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 890 times:

Matt,
I would suggest you vote for Wesley Clark if he gets the dem nomination, although I'm not sure he will. I know you want to vote next November but the dems are so unorganized that if someone like Kerry wins it might be best not to vote in 2004 unless you really want to vote for Bush which I don't think is that good of an idea as speaking as someone from another country he appears really dangerous.

Its all up to you who your vote for come Nov 2004. Big grin



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineZak From Greenland, joined Sep 2003, 1993 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 883 times:

finally a real republican. i applaude your posting since people like you are the genuine conservative spectrum before neo conservatives were able to use the right wing as tool to their goals under the token of democracy. you should support ron paul and encourage other republicans to oppose the bush dicatorship on the gop. a healthy democracy needs a strong opposition in the ruling party and a strong opposing party. i hope there will be more people like you openly voicing their opinions  Smile and uh vote whatever you support, dont look at the party book.


10=2
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 13, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 881 times:

It would be great if the two major parties here in the U.S. were Democratic and Libertarian. Then I'd cross party lines more often.
Abraham Lincoln would turn over in his grave if he could see what his party has degraded to.

http://www.paul2004.com/





Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineN6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 878 times:

Matt,

I'd argue that you're a conservative. I too have many of the same issues with the Bush administration that you've outlined. IMO, the GOP has abandoned its core conservative values of smaller government, fiscal responsibility and the rights of the individual.

This being said, I can imagine that unchecked the democrats would do better. I've reached the conclusion that I'm going to split my vote. Republican for the White House and Democrats for Congress. A divided government seems to work best -- perhaps because it is so hard to get stuff done and therefore very little actually gets through.

I believe that left alone, the economy, though cyclical is better off in the long run.

As for jobs - we've got to accept that if we're going to have double digits improvement in productivity that there will be net job losses. Technology is completely changing the allocation of economic resources and how money is spent. Why should Morgan Stanley move its equity research department to India. They pay the employees 50% less and get the same quality reports. Is it the government's job to ensure that the now out of work equity analyst in the US finds a job? I'd say no. Instead, it's the government's job to eliminate the barriers and restrictions for job creation by the private sector.


User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 867 times:

Brother Matt. Welcome to the world of being a moderate Republican. There's not too many like us around. The Democrats still really don't like us, and the B757300's of the world think we are worse than a Clinton loving liberal Democrat, because how dare we not blindly support, vote, and live along the Republican Party Line. Like DLKAPA said, we look beyond party lines when making choices. For most, that's an inconceivable concept.

User currently offlineN6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 862 times:

KROC, do you really believe that present GOP embodies the principles of conservativism that it was based upon. I think that the Republican congress has shown that it has absolutely no ability to control spending.

Campaign finance reform (a blatant violation of free speech rights) made it through a GOP controlled Congress and was signed by a GOP president.

I really believe that the GOP has abandoned its base. This being said, things would only be worse with a democrat in the White House - at least any of the 9 who are currently running.

-76M


User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 862 times:

>>The Democrats still really don't like us<<

Although I am not a member of the Democratic party, as someone who normally votes for Democrats, I for one am all for "moderate Republicans" (i.e. Northeast Republicans).

Liberal on social issues, fiscally conservative. That's the way to go.



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 851 times:

So TWFirst, can I consider you a KROC fan?  Big grin

76M. No, I do not think the current GOP embodies the principles it was formed on, and I can say the same thing for the Democrats as well. I finds myself more along the lines of a Republican with my views, but I also have allot of liberal views as well. Because of this, and the fact my head is not firmly implanted in my ass, I will not strictly follow any party lines completely. I support Bush and his presidency, BUT that doesn't mean I am an apologist for all the errors in the administration like some American Guy's, and that doesn't mean I would vote for him in '04 if I felt the Dems were providing a better candidate. Politics is all about the lessor of two evils, not about who is better.....

In the end, the Democrats and Republicans are all about the same thing...themselves and money.


User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 23
Reply 19, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 850 times:

You know KROC, I am really getting sick of your attitude toward me. You can't go a day without some post taking a swipe @ me. I guess the rules here still do not apply to the "crew" but only to the little people.

You obviously have not read many of my posts over the years. I have criticized Bush, the Republicans, and others on the conservative side when I felt it was appropriate. About the only thing you will find me supporting Bush on right now is the war on terror. Domestically I’m not sure if we actually did elect Al Gore and you should read my post about the aberration called Campaign Finance Reform. I was very critical of Bush and the Republicans in that thread and in others over the last few years.



"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineCptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3219 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 842 times:

I dunno, man. This is probably the last place to ask advice on who you should vote for. You're the only person to answer your own questions. Even if the consideration boils down to "the lesser of evils", analyze, and make your own decision based on your own thoughts, not those of others. Regards...Jack


all best; jack
User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 840 times:

You know KROC, I am really getting sick of your attitude toward me. You can't go a day without some post taking a swipe @ me. I guess the rules here still do not apply to the "crew" but only to the little people.

Do you need a tissue B757300? You see, after you cried the first and only time I called you "Americanguy" paterned after "Indianguy" I dropped it. I know how sensitive you are. In my above post, I said "American Guy's" because there are SEVERAL American Guy's on this forum that based on their posts blindly follow all things GOP, just like there are those that blindly follow all things Democrat. So no, that was not a swipe at you. And my 'daily swipes" on you? I am not sure what you are reading, but put down Paranoia Monthly, because if I gave you a thought a week, much less a day I would be over stating the number. Oh, and slugger, if I consulted all your posts as a whole, my opinion of your views...would remain the same. Critical of campaign finance or not.

And yeah, the rules apply to me as well, too bad I wasn't bagging on you. Next.


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 789 times:

B757300, I haven't read anywhere where you critisize Bush. Not one place. And you're a neocon's wet dream, for all the unbending, zealous support you give George Bush and everything he does. Didn't your profile use to say that the Democratic Party should be outlawed, or some nonsense like that? So don't sit here and tell us you're a critic of George Bush. That's about as truthful as saying that Indianguy is a financial contributor to the GOP.

We need more Matt D's, KROC's, and N673m's in the GOP, who are sick of this neocon hijacking of the party and are taking it straight to Seig Heil Land. Maybe if more voices like theres were to surface in places of authority, the Republican party might be saved from the Ashcroft's, Rumsfeld's, Wolfwitz's, and Coulter's, and organizations like the NRA.

Conversely, we need more voices like that on the Democratic side to rescue it from the Sharpton's, the Mosley-Braun's, the Kucinnich's, and organizations like NOW.


User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 774 times:

MattD,

You might not be experiencing second thoughts about being a card carrying republican. You're just slowly coming to the realization that the Bush administration truly is a huge failure regardless of your political affiliation.

I have never been so disappointed with an American president before. Bush is not good for the US, Canada or the rest of the world.

For your sake I hope the republican party comes up with a better alternative and puts these jokers out to pasture.....at this point pretty much anyone looks better.


User currently offlineB2707SST From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 1369 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 761 times:

I think a great number of Americans hold fiscally conservative but socially moderate or liberal views. I go back and forth between calling myself a libertarian or a member of the Goldwater wing of the Republican Party. The fiscal disaster that has been Republican control of Congress is not winning them points. They apparently have this master plan of neutralizing the Democratic agenda -- by enacting all their issues and "removing them from the field." Just what is accomplished by this, I'm not sure.

I would seriously consider voting Libertarian if you feel that disgusted with Bush. I think Bush's failures have been exaggerated by his critics, but there are definitely things about his administration that are worrisome - you pointed out the vast expansion in the size of government under his administration, which is undeniable and inexcusable. I'm not altogether comfortable with the PATRIOT Act and I think Ashcroft is an embarrassment who needs to go after the election, if Bush wins another term, but I don't think he's the Nazi that the left portrays him as.

However, I will probably vote for Bush again because I only see things getting worse under a Democrat. Dean is becoming a lock on the nomination, and he has promised to roll back all $2 trillion of the Bush tax cuts and spend the savings on new entitlements. This would be economic suicide. As much as I sympathize with the Libertarians, they do not put forward viable presidential candidates.

--B2707SST



Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
25 Jcs17 : -Do you believe that the government should subsidize a person's lack of work ethic or unwillingness to better themselves? -Do you believe that taxes a
26 Matt D : Do you believe that the government should subsidize a person's lack of work ethic or unwillingness to better themselves? Absolutely not. Do you believ
27 Post contains images Superfly : Alpha 1: Conversely, we need more voices like that on the Democratic side to rescue it from the Sharpton's, the Mosley-Braun's, the Kucinnich's, and
28 L-188 : Your still against gun control right? Seriously though, not a damm thing wrong with any of those views.
29 Bizelite14 : Well Matt D, I don't think you are a closet liberal. I think you are just testing the waters. It is great to be independent minded. Ideally, we wouldn
30 L-188 : BTW: Who says that Wes Clark wouldn't rule with an iron fist. He used to be a general remember, he had his minions doing his bidding. And if they didn
31 Alpha 1 : -Do you believe that the government should subsidize a person's lack of work ethic or unwillingness to better themselves? Do YOU believe, Jcs, that th
32 Post contains images GKirk : "We need more Matt D's, KROC's" Alpha 1, are you drunk?
33 StarAC17 : I would seriously recommend voting for President Bush. It is clear that he wants to see this nation suceed on all fronts. While Bush might want the na
34 Post contains links Superfly : Matt D: Tell me what you think of this website. It's a conservative website that is very critcal of Bush/Dick/Colon & Co. There is a big article about
35 Cba : Matt, although I may disagree with some of your stances, I do respect you. Unlike so many Americans, you ask questions and think outside the box. You
36 DLKAPA : some of you people are idiots... IDIOTS!!! let me spell that for you I D I O T S!!! do you not believe that maybe somebody in your family could be on
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