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EU Leaders And Their Personal Interests  
User currently offlineF.pier From Italy, joined Aug 2000, 1524 posts, RR: 9
Posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1305 times:

SO, this time they decided not to decide.

Another time each of them preferred to take care of its own interests instead of the common EU interests.

Until every signle State will believe its own interests are more important than EU interests there will not be a true European Power.

We have to learn to sacrifice a little bit of our pride because we must become more important.

I sincerely think that Poland and Spain committed a very big mistake because it's mainly their fault. By the way I can understand the fact that a such important thing cannot be accepted under Berlusconi power, so I sincerely hope the next time to be the right time.

Today it's a sad day for the European Union. A happy day for the US. I think they don't want us to become stronger and with our own opinion about the world facts.

[Edited 2003-12-13 17:01:55]

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24938 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1292 times:

You mean a happy day for those countries who wish to remain independant in Europe, and a sad day for Germany and France?  Confused


When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineSonic From Lithuania, joined Jan 2000, 1670 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1292 times:

Of course interests of single state are more important than interests of the Union. After all, people of their own states elects politicians. Thus politicians are responsible only to people, and not to the Union. They wants to make it better for people of their own nation, same, who elected them.
This is probably not so important for Italy, France or Germany, but it is extremely important for smaller countries who would get very small amount of votes according to new constitution and EU could enact laws for them, including laws bad for them and their people (since any law passed in EU would automatically pass in member states).
It's not only national pride.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4307 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1287 times:

Hey, if having a European Constitution means European governments becoming even more 'US-like' in their attitudes (and if that is what Europeans want), then I hope it never passes!

The world doesn't need superpowers, it needs the power of principle. If every country simply had principled leaders, our development could perhaps be 200 years further ahead than it is.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1281 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Brilliant contributions by Sonic and Derico.



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1267 times:

Sonic,

the oh-so-bad EU has helped many economically weak countries to develop and become prosperous. If you don't want your country to benefit, you should have voted against the EU, or you should vote for politicans who don't want political integration. But obviously your fellow countrymen had a less narrow-minded approach to the EU than you have. Bad luck, that's democracy.

History has shown that you have to take really brave steps to achieve something. And it's not brave to walk around with a shelf mounted on your head "Yeah progress, as long as we get all the benefits and power and the others suffer".


User currently offlineUA 777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1265 times:

Sonic,

I think that you are missing the point here. The point is that right now not all citizens of European Union states influence the politics of the European Union in the same way, i.e. every single citizen of Luxembourg has a greater influence on European politics than a German citizen. The ratio of the populations, in this case, is 1:200, the ratio of the members of the European Parliament is 1:16,5! It has in my opinion not that much to do with states, it is about the individual. It is not acceptable in a EU that is moving closer together that some citizens influence common policies more than others.

regards


User currently offlineZak From Greenland, joined Sep 2003, 1993 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1256 times:

news are as i said in the other thread, that the core eu nations will simply move ahead with the consitituon on their own and take uk in. that would mean poland and spain scored a own goal, since then their political power in the eu would be close to zero plus there would surely be harsh cuts on subsidies for them if they would force the eu to seperate into a two class eu.
but maybe that is the better thing, have a core eu with one constitution fully committed to progress and integration, and a sattelite eu to give the core eu access to cheap labour(which is the main argument against the eu by many people, seems they themselves work towards that goal).



10=2
User currently offlineSonic From Lithuania, joined Jan 2000, 1670 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1247 times:

Racko, I've already told abot undemocratic means and lies during referendum. Unfortunately most of Lithuanian people still believes propaganda and government controlled propaganda always can control masses, as so many examples shown. And, it is especially easy in developing countries and countries recently faced crisis or wars. It was so in once in Germany, it was so in Russia, etc. I am of course supporting anti-EU politicians. Too bad only three of them are in parliament of 141 seats currently. I have my respect for two of them, since the third is far left (not right) anti-semitic, who praised holocaust (he said "If Hitler wouldn't have killed Jews now we (Lithuanians) would have to clean their shoes in the middle of Independence Avenue").

I am not thinking "Yeah progress, as long as we get all the benefits and power and the others suffer" way, this is how France and Germany are thinking without wanting a better compromise (for Polish and Spanish) for the constitution. Poland and Spain wouldn't have all power even without constitution. Their portion of votes still would be small. However, with new constitution it would be a definite minority.

UA777, I get your point about majority democracy. Just in my opinion international organisations shouldn't work this way. I know there are differences between the UN and EU, but still - it wouldn't be very "democratic" if China and India would propose that number of votes in UN would directly depend on populations, would it? Nations also mst be represented in the Union. Smaller nations must not be forced to adopt laws which would damage their economy or politics.


User currently offlineUA 777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1232 times:

Sonic,

obviously it is also important to protect smaller countries, but the compromise in the EU consitution does not ignore the need to protect smaller countries (decision must represent 60% of the EU population AND 50% of the countries).

And BTW, in general, I am of the opinion that more highly populated countries should have more power in international organizations. A decision, that affects for example 10 Chinese citizens and 1 French citizen should be clearly dominated by the vote of the Chinese citizens.

regards


User currently offlineDaV From Italy, joined Jun 2001, 669 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1208 times:

I think we are leaning towards a EU composed by the only original 12 members, as it's even more evident that new members tend to join just to benefit from the huge European market than to integrate into something bigger. I don't have any problem against it, it's a free will decision, but once it has taken, it has to be persecuted to the end. I'd like to see in a remote future (times are not mature IMO) a European Union acting a single state (not a super-country like many of you seem to reflect the idea of Europe... not to compete, but to progress) where the single identity are preserved because even if we share thousands of year of common history and cultural commonality, we are still different one from the other.

DaV



Two monologues do not make a dialogue
User currently offlineF.pier From Italy, joined Aug 2000, 1524 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1160 times:

If I were a member of the EU parliament...

I wouldn't act as they're doing now. Everytime I see one of them on the TV I hear sentences like "I'll take care of Italian interests because we wanna reach that target". All our European deputies go to the European Parliament as citizen of their own states, so Italians go there to preserve Italian interests.

This is a big mistake.

If I were elected as European deputy I'd work ONLY for the interests of the WHOLE EUROPEAN UNION, I wouldn't take care of Italian interests because my target would be the wellness of the whole EU population.

All EU deputies should work this way.

They seem not to understand that they MUST take care of the EUropean Union and not of the single states.

That's why we still have so many problems to reach agreements about a lot of topics.


User currently offlineF.pier From Italy, joined Aug 2000, 1524 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1139 times:

This morning, on italian newspapers I see another news that drives me crazy!!

Berlusconi says: No miracle, but Italy triumphs!!

I think this demonstrates what sort of man is my prime minister.

This means that his opinions are exactly 100% different from mines. He says that there is no constitution, but Parma won the "race" against Helsinki to become the site of the European Food agency.

BUT WHO CARES ABOUT THIS?!!? THIS WOULD BE A TRIUMPH FOR ITALY OR FOR THE EU!?!? I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE SITE OF AN AGENCY, BUT ABOUT TEH WELLNESS OF THE EUROPEAN UNION!!!

How can he compare a victory (but this is a victory?!!??!) like this with the agreement we didn't reach!!

Italian semester was a triumpph for the European Union?

DEFINITELY NO!!!

I'm ashamed of this man.


User currently offlineEg777er From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 1837 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1132 times:

Personally, I would advocate the US Senate model, where every state, no matter how populated, has one vote. And there are no "veto-powers". This I think would result in less bullying of the smaller countries by France and Germany, but in turn, the smaller countries would not have much opportunity to be "difficult" as they know where their bread is buttered (i.e. the economies of the smaller countries Belgium, Lux. etc. are supported by the success of the large countries UK France Germany etc.).

But it's too late for this to happen. We're stuck with the current situation. So I think what's really on the cards is the creation of a two-speed Europe, exactly like the one we had in the 70s. Remeber, back then, a "vanguard" of pioneering states (the "Founding Six") got together to start European integration, and then they invited others to expand the Union.

So what I think will happen now, is that France and Germany will forge ahead with "ever closer union" and then in a couple of years will invite others to join them (and they will, as they see it's a good idea).

And who loses most? Britain. Yet again we'll miss the opportunity of our destiny. I can see us shouting from the sidelines......."Don't do that...Don't do that...Don't do that...Don't do that...Don't do that...Don't do that...Don't do that..................."

"Oh s__t. You've done it. Can we join you?"


User currently offlineL.1011 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 2209 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1102 times:

Well I have a lesson for the EU. As you know, the USA under the Articles of Confederation was weak and disorganized. When we were planning our new Constitution, two plans emerged. The small states (in population) supported the New Jersey Plan. It called for a single-house Congress in which each state got one vote. Big states got behind the Virginia Plan, which called for a two-house Congress with seats allocated by population. In the end, Mr. Roger Sherman saved the country with the Great Comprimise. It created a Senate in which every state had 2 votes, and a House of Representatives with seats allocated by population. This made both sets of states happy. It seems that this sort of system would work best for the EU. However, I don't like the EU because I think they formed it only to challenge US power and we should be strong-handed with the EU. If they pull crap on us, pull crap on them. Thats what I say.

User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1084 times:

"It created a Senate in which every state had 2 votes, and a House of Representatives with seats allocated by population.

That's similar to the system the whole EU except Spain and Poland want.


User currently offlineBobrayner From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2003, 2227 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1068 times:

Personally, I would advocate the US Senate model, where every state, no matter how populated, has one vote. And there are no "veto-powers". This I think would result in less bullying of the smaller countries by France and Germany, but in turn, the smaller countries would not have much opportunity to be "difficult" as they know where their bread is buttered (i.e. the economies of the smaller countries Belgium, Lux. etc. are supported by the success of the large countries UK France Germany etc.).

You can already see potential drawbacks of this situation - look at the United Nations. One of the UN's lesser problems is that in the GA, all countries have the same vote, whether they are huge or tiny.

Consequently, a handful of the very smallest countries with tiny budgets get suspiciously large amounts of assistance from less scrupulous countries who'd like to buy a sympathetic vote. IIRC, Libya is/was a surprisingly large aid donor to tiny Caribbean banana republics.

the economies of the smaller countries Belgium, Lux. etc. are supported by the success of the large countries UK France Germany etc.

Belgium, Luxembourg, &c are successful in their own right; they're not parasites. A lot of their industries involve cross-border trade, but that would still have been the case (to a lesser extent) without the EU, simply because their borders are much closer together.

A better example would be Kaliningrad - it's small, and very poor by European standards, but it has the potential to cause lots of problems for European trade & border controls, &c. as well as complicating relations with the grumpy old giant who lives next door. It's a black hole for charity and "structural aid".

Parma won the "race" against Helsinki to become the site of the European Food agency

Because Finns have no sense of taste, right?  Smile

However, I don't like the EU because I think they formed it only to challenge US power and we should be strong-handed with the EU

Then a little research might help.
The rest of the world is not always so adversarial.



Cunning linguist
User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1046 times:

Sonic - aka THE anti-European, I remember when you were whining about your entry in the UE, all the bad jobs for you all the good one for us ...
I just learnt 3 days ago that Siemens will transfer 10000 jobs of software engineers in eastern Europe (just like all the companies are doing these days).

In fact, it's a big problem for people like me who are in competition with much cheaper engineers in the new European countries.


User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1031 times:

I'm sorry but the interests of ones own countries comes way ahead of the EU's interests - if a decision was taken at EU level that was detrimental in any way to the UK I would expect nothing less than a veto and if that failed a tacit refusal to comply. I just don't like too much integration - I don't see the point. I want to make decisions for my country and I don't really give a damn about decisions made by any other country so why would I want to make decisions for them.

Also, I'm not surprised Spain and Poland are nervous - seeing as the French are already blatantly disregarding several EU directives, then why should they be given more power to dictate other countries' policies! The idea of becoming one big state makes me sick to the bone - what can possibly be the thinking behind it? Sure, monetary union isn't such a bad thing but accepting a central European government with decision making powers across all of Europe? Not bloody likely!!! I'm British and my government will make decisions for my country thankyou! The Germans can make decisions applying to Germany and likelwise the French can sort their own problems out. They certainly shouldn't be making decisions that affect me! If I don't like the decisions my government makes for my country I will vote against them in the elections. Doubt my vote would have much impact in a European election though.....



I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1010 times:

Poland and Spain's fault? Hardly. It's EUROPE'S fault. The so-called enlightened EU Eurocrats have never heard of a bicameral legislature. Such a compromise would have saved this Constitution.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers


User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 999 times:

Here's what should happen. EU decision making power should be decided based on NET FINANCIAL CONTRIBUTION. That is the fairest way.


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 982 times:

Have explaining THAT to Poland RyanB741  Big grin

User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 976 times:

Here's what should happen. EU decision making power should be decided based on NET FINANCIAL CONTRIBUTION. That is the fairest way

Huh ?

Considering the financial contribution is an effect of the policies decided by the commission, it's everything but fair. More of that, the contribution is not fixed, it might change from one year to another in great proportion.


User currently offlineKrushny From Spain, joined Dec 2000, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 967 times:

Well, some of you guys have very short memories. The representation of each of the countries in the expanded EU was agreed some months back in Nice. I do not really understand why it has to be modified, what has changed from then to now? The behaviour of Germany cannot be more erratic, first it agrees one thing in the Treaty of Nice, then a few months later this is undemocratic and unfair ?? Then why did Germany sign it in the first place ?? And in the meantime Germany & France have given a deathly blow to the Stability Pact... and want to lay the blame of this EU Constitution fiasco on Spain and Poland.
In the case of Spain, we had to renounce to several things in Nice, and in contrast we got practically the same votes as a principal countries. Though probably this is not defensible in the long term, I agree that my govt should not give up the votes without a good fight.
For Poland I do not know the specifics, but probably they got so many votes to make the EU more sellable at home; once in the EU Poland will have to take tough measures on its elefantiasic first sector (agriculture, mines) and the "main country treatment" in the EU can make this more pallatable to the Polish voters in the street. I understand that the Polish politicians who have been selling the EU to their people feel now "backstabbed" with this EU Constitution thing.

I think in the end an agreement will be made, but like all serious negotiations will take a lot of time and work. So be patient and let us not fall in this ridiculous fingerpointing and accusations of treason of the great EU idea.


User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 24, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 947 times:

As it stands the smaller countries are paying most of the EU budget while the larger countries are getting the most out of it.
Per capita the Netherlands pay more to the EU than any other member state and receive the least.
Also in total the Netherlands are in the top 3 contributors.

The country with the smallest EU contribution is (no surprise) France.
The country that gets the most EU subsidies and perks is again (no surprise) France.

France now wants to limit the power of the smaller countries to stop plans that would reduce the French profits from the EU while at the same time preventing any plan that would mean an increase in French spending towards the EU.
To do this they need to take away the equal representation that these small countries have, ergo the plan to get rid of the representation per country and instead have representation per capita (which would mean that the large nations would be able to outvote the small nations on anything as they would have a vast majority of the votes).

In contrast to what some have suggested here, it is the larger countries (and mainly France and Germany) that are the parasites on the EU.
They get away (by bullying mostly) with disregarding EU laws they themselves put in place (the stability pact is the latest example but there are many others) whenever those laws are not in their own best interest whilen the smaller countries can pay for the damage done.

Many people in the smaller countries have just about had enough of it, but our governments have been completely bought by promises of cushy jobs in Brussels or Strassbourg after they get voted out of office and don't listen to their constituents anymore.



I wish I were flying
25 Racko : Jwenting, I'm sorry but you are plain and simply wrong. Germany has always been a net-paying country (pays more to the EU budget than we get out of it
26 Staffan : I'd like to see some figures backing up jwenting's post. Staffan
27 Go Canada! : "Today it's a sad day for the European Union. A happy day for the US. I think they don't want us to become stronger and with our own opinion about the
28 Post contains links Boeing4ever : http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/466427/ Everyone read reply 103 and learn. B4e-Forever New Frontiers
29 Racko : Boeing4ever, the only thing I learned out of reply #103 is that the system everyone except Poland and Spain wants is proven to be fair by history. You
30 Cyril B : The country with the smallest EU contribution is (no surprise) France. The country that gets the most EU subsidies and perks is again (no surprise) Fr
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