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The Disregard For US Aviation/Homeland Security  
User currently offlineJcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2266 times:

Over the past couple weeks, security has been tightened regarding commercial aviation and for the passengers arriving on flights to/from the US. This has been due to an increased level in terrorist 'chatter' and intelligence that points to a possible terror attack using airplanes. Among the actions taken by the US government:

-Requesting that a few international flights, with possible terror suspects aboard, be cancelled.

-Requiring that certain flights and certain airlines have security on board.

-Requiring that all passengers are properly screened at the originating airport.

-A few flights to the US have been trailed by fighter jets.

-All visitors to the US must be fingerprinted and photographed.

Surprisingly (yeah right), a good amount of posters have blamed this on "American paranoia," "the Bush administration in general," "Bush wanting to raise approval ratings," "American prejudice towards Muslims," and "false intelligence." And have gone onto cry bloody murder as if Nazi tanks were rolling through their backyard.

America suffered through the loss of 3,000 citizens (and other nations lost many citizens, as well) on 9/11 due to piss poor homeland security. The American intelligence agencies do their job and gather intelligence on the actions of Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations. They attempt to prevent a terrorist attack through prevention (erring on the side of caution when it comes to allowing people on watch lists into the country)--and a lot of you consider it a bad thing--or misdirected at the very least. What if a terrorist was attempting to crash a plane into Paris and the French government requesting that American not allow one of its flights to take off? Heres how it would go, no Americans would really care...in fact we'd probably encourage it (we wouldn't scream "Chirac is just trying to get us back!"), and the rest of a.net would be giving Jacques Chirac a pat on the back for his bravery for saving thousands of Parisians.

Whenever America wants to stop terrorism through very slight measures of security, most of you consider it an capital crime. The only time that there is a concern for American homeland security from some of you, is when people are dead--then you feel free to point the finger at Bush and our intelligence community.

Let me remind some of you, that if America is attacked again using aircraft as a tool or weapon people will be killed. Actually nevermind that, I probably need to use something that most of you actually care about, the American aviation industry is most likely finished as we know it.


America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 34
Reply 1, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2237 times:

-All visitors to the US must be fingerprinted and photographed
*******

While I am in total agreement with the theme of your post, I would like to point out that most European countries are exempt from this ruling. British etc do not get fingerprinted.

Jeremy


User currently offlineJAL777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2218 times:

I respect any and all rules and laws when I go to a foreign country. I read up on local customs and accepted practices and follow them. If you don't wanna do the same thing when coming here... tough.

User currently offlineLhr001 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2196 times:

It is an American way of life...


You pat my back, I will pat yours!

I.E.
You cover for me, we will cover for you!



LHR001


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2190 times:

Sorry Jcs17 but Paranoia is an apt description.




OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 34
Reply 5, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2181 times:

The main thing that bothers me about all this crap that people are dishing up, like Bush is making all this up etc, and it is all some CIA plot to put the airlines out of business etc.. is that do you people actually think that there is no craving for the nutjobs to cause harm to the US, do you think that they are wanting love in the world ?. it sends out a confusing message. The message that the arab world takes from it is that you are actually supporting their cause, as opposed to just voicing an opinion on it.

There is no doubt that they are attempting attacks, they spent millions on the last attacks, they worked on them for years, spoke in encoded messages and managed to pull it off, yet you guys think that they then walked of to Disneyland with no desire to do it again despite the continual messages from Bin Laden and his merry band of hopefuls.

Think about what you are actually saying

Jeremy


User currently offlineCommander_Rabb From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 771 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2157 times:

The fact is simple. If you don't want to be subjected to stringent security measures you don't have to travel to the United States. Period.

I find it most amusing that a country like Brazil does a "tit for tat" and now requires that all U.S. citizens be subjected to a higher security measure also. Seems to me that a country like Brazil stands to loose a whole lot more than the U.S. will from this obvious one-upmanship.

In any case what is wrong with a fingerprint and a photo? The world is changing, prepare yourselves for it. More security is on it's way.



User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2144 times:

And now COmmander Rabb will expalin why, I as a Yank, should have my name and a fingerprint on file with the police, when I have commited no crime, Done no time, am not accused of anything, and all I want to do is get on a flipping airplane or get back into my own country!

I have no problem with what Brazil is doing, and hope more countries will take up the idea, to stick it to the federal government.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineJAL777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2137 times:

And now COmmander Rabb will expalin why, I as a Yank, should have my name and a fingerprint on file with the police, when I have commited no crime, Done no time, am not accused of anything, and all I want to do is get on a flipping airplane or get back into my own country!


Uh... did you even read the article??? Its only for foreigners who require visas to enter the United States.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2118 times:

Step 1 JAL777.

It is only Step 1


See CAPPS II



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 34
Reply 10, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2112 times:

why, I as a Yank, should have my name and a fingerprint on file with the police, when I have commited no crime, Done no time, am not accused of anything
****

and if you have no interest in changing that, then you have nothing to worry about. Putting your finger on an ink pad and then a piece of paper, is that really a such a big deal ?, want me to hold your hand ?


User currently offlineVafi88 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3116 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2110 times:

The thing is, is that it IS paranoya... think about it, they tell you there's a Terrorist attack on the way (presumably) then everyone gets worried, the stock prices go down (or go up slightly) and then we wonder why we're in an economic "depression" or so to speak.


I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2109 times:

Artsymann.

I don't think you appreciate the dangers of databases.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineJAL777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2109 times:

Well then... I've already been to step 4 in other countries... don't see what the big problem is.

User currently offlineJAL777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2103 times:

I don't think you appreciate the dangers of databases.

Welcome to modern world.


User currently offlineCwapilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1166 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2085 times:

The Left can spew some of the most rediculous accusations against the Administration, they can create the most asinine conspiracy theories, and anything negative can be said, based in fact or not, against the President, and it has to be credible just because they are saying it.

In their world, it all boils down to the following: 9/11 was a staged event cooked up by an administration looking for a boost in its poll numbers, and used as a pretext to take over oil fields so that Halliburton could win an oil contract. The ongoing "security" situation is a way for the administration to maintain its poll numbers among the American public (as the public at large is just plain stupid when compared to the infinite wisdom of the Left) and to eventually take over the world.

Well, here's a conspiracy theory for all of you:
Opponents of this administration are STILL convinced, despite their inability to prove it given every opportunity to do so, that the 2000 election was stolen. They cannot STAND being out of power, and will do and say anything to regain power. The only way they see this happening, given the current state of their party and the pathetic set of candidates they have been able to field, is to defeat the President on his pet issue, which is national security, or for the economy to tank. The only way they can defeat him on national security is for another catastrophic attack on American soil to occur sometime within the next 9 months. And what better way for the economy to tank, than for another catastrophic terror attack to occur within the next 9 months. You see, the only way they have to win this election is for Osama to come through for them with another deadly terror attack...if, and only if, they are able to constrain the President from responding to such an attack effectively.

It is no wonder to me why some would like to brush the terrorism threat off as paranoia. It seems a winning, and very CONVENIENT, position. In the likely event that attacks are avoided, details of thwarted attacks will most likely not be made public, so as to protect the integrity of ongoing security operations. They then have the luxury of acting as the wise ones who did not give in to the paranoia...see, we were right, nothing happened! In the event that something DOES happen, they can emerge with the argument that the administration did not do the right things, and it's their fault. Again, they are the wise ones, and, in either scenario, "the bums should go!"





Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2075 times:

L-188, I think that these things are just a part of life now. I would say that the databases have existed for a while now, and the fingerprint isnt really a big change or surprise. While I would agree that in a perfect world it would be better if we didnt have to worry about these trivialities, the truth is, if you need somewhere to vent your frustrations about this sort of thing, I would suggest that you go seek out some clerics and maybe the ashes of Mr Atta, and take it up with them as opposed to the people that are doing what they believe is best (for right or for wrong) to prevent it happening again.

Sure there are mistakes being made, but we are in a new world now, this sort of bollocks is here to stay, and although it is sad, I think people really should stop and think about how they cope with it.

Complaining is now human nature, people do it all the time, and they do it about everything and anything, it is now just written off as human nature, people are suing each other for the oddest things, it is just part of life these days. Freedom to do so is a beautiful thing.

Jeremy


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2044 times:

Hey Artsyman.

If I could find Atta's grave to urinate on it I would.

However the fact that a majority of the americans here think that this goverment intrusion and fearmongering is ok is both shocking and sad.

America was not built as a country to imprision it's citizens and to spy on them. Freedom to travel is something that we have enjoyed for years.

Allready we are seeing that who can fly is going to be restricted by CAPPS II, will the interstates be next?

How far are you willing to go.

I submit that it has gone to far allready.

Unfortunatly there isn't a viable canadate to change the system yet. So what it will take is Americans standing up, to CAPPS II finiancial checks screwing up their credit ratings, It will take invasive searches at the airport, It will take americans being jailed because they don't want to explain to an officer why they are standing on the sidewalk. How many times are federal officers going to sneek into homes without warrents before we say that the current security system is too much?

We are moving into the GDR people, and we don't even realize it.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 34
Reply 18, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2019 times:

L-188, The items you bring up are from the daily norm for most American citizens. I have no doubt that there are some liberties going amiss, and that not everything is perfect, but I do feel in my heart of hearts that they are not as bad as you make out.

That said, I am strongly opposed to the current government, and have no love lost for the muppet at the top of the heap, but I am also aware that we are in a new era, and that along the way mistakes will be made, and that will happen whomever is in the Oval office.

My main bone of contention is the utter lack of respect that Bush has shown for the rest of the world, their rights, their opinions, and has really undone years of good work that bonded the western world.

The dislike of Americans worldwide has reached staggering proportions, and at the end of the day, the guy at the top needs to carry the can, but I just do not go along with the constant conspiracy crap that gets posted on here, it is tired, uneducated drivel that helps nothing. I want to make it clear that in no way do I attach you to that last comment, I enjoy what debates we have, they stay professional, for the most part logical, and usually informative.

Jeremy


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2022 times:

Whenever America wants to stop terrorism through very slight measures of security, most of you consider it an capital crime.

Josh, with all due respect, there is absolutely no "security" involved through highly publicized color-coded prime-time drama over the holidays. It is a spectacle engineered more for mass consumption than for actual security.

The US has a lot of areas of expertise where they are far ahead of most of the world. Aviation security and border controls is not among them. You can make strict rules ad infinitum to try and tighten things up, but there are still holes the size of Texas that any half-intelligent terrorist can exploit.

I for one think the only capital crime being committed is by the US Government against its own citizens, festering an atmosphere of absolute paranoia and fear instead of the fortitude and confidence that saw the US through so many conflicts in the past ranging from the War of Independance through the World Wars to the Cold War and even the Iraq conflicts. There are enough chicken littles at grass roots level that you don't need Tom Ridge on National TV telling you that Orange is the flavor of the week.

But hey, its your country and I'm perfectly willing to sit on the sidelines outsourcing your jobs to a booming economy in India (which incidentally has more victims of terrorism than pretty much the rest of the world combined yet seems to get along fine) while you guys run around screaming that the sky is falling down. Happy New Year!


User currently offlineCommander_Rabb From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 771 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1944 times:

Anyone who is so scared about giving their fingerprint and photo is hiding something. Something from others or themselves. We all do or did give them at one time or another. What is the big deal?

The wave of the future is to prove you can travel safely as a citizen with no background to cause others concern about their traveling safely. That means giving your name, your worthless mug and a copy of your well inked thumb print. (Big deal.) You give your well earned money to travel, now give something else.

As far as being paranoid about safety, if you people only knew what has and is being prevented you would chirp a different tune.

Travel safe, others are making sure that you can.


User currently offlineJcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 21, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1946 times:

I agree with you Sean, aviation security in the U.S. is still a complete joke, as are our borders. That won't change until we get rid of the burger-flippers at the TSA and replace them with professionals. The airlines must also take responsibility for their own security. As for the borders, well we won't get into that, I'll save it for a rant on non-av.

However, as for the paranoia that you speak of, I really don't think thats the case. First of all, the public should know when there is an increased risk of a terrorist attack, not to scare people, but so that people are prepared. Secondly, there was absolutely paranoia (if you want to call it that) during the Cold War and WWII. How else do you explain the McCarthy trials, kids doing nuclear attack drills in school (although I'd chalk that up to preparedness..not paranoia), and Japanese internment camps. The examples go on and on. I'd rather know about an increased risk and have it happen, than not know anything and have it happen.

Sean, I'll just be happy when Delta stops outsourcing their CSR's to India. As nice as they are, the thick Indian accent is too indecipherable!  Smile



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1934 times:

The essential equation come down to weather or not Americans are willing to trade liberty for security.

I agree with Ben Franklin on this, those that are willing to make this trade deserve neither.

unfortunately many Americans appear ready to make that exact trade.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1919 times:

First of all, the public should know when there is an increased risk of a terrorist attack... so that people are prepared

The fundamental concept of effective public safety is to always be prepared. Your argument is illogical in an environment where there is neither completely accurate advance intelligence, nor an effective mechanism to cross-check and eliminate false positives internally.

Sorry Josh, but the US's color coded warning scheme is the laughing stock of the world despite what Fox News may tell you.


User currently offlineCommander_Rabb From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 771 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (10 years 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1903 times:

Benjamin Franklin was a man who lived over 200 years ago who had no idea what an airplane, a World Trade Center, or an Islamic terrorist is. If he had, he most certainly would have agreed that we must take steps to insure the survival and the success of liberty.

As is our constitution, the advancement of time, and the changing of ideas necessitates the need for amendments in ones life.

We must stop living in the 18th century and move forward an take steps to deal with the 21st century menace whether it be an Islamic terrorist or a terrorist fighting for the right to sell sponges on the street corner.

Identify your enemy and kill it with any means necessary. Once killed, we can then revert back to the old ways. If it's safe to do so.



25 Commander_Rabb : People may think the color code is the laughing stock but there have been untold success since it's implementation. Laughing stock? Hardly. If only yo
26 B747-437B : Identify your enemy and kill it with any means necessary. The problem arises when you start the proverbial killing without completing the proper ident
27 Leskova : I think one of the biggest questions is - and remains: where do you draw the line? Yes, if you have nothing to hide, you should not have any problems
28 Thadocta : "Benjamin Franklin was a man who lived over 200 years ago who had no idea what an airplane, a World Trade Center, or an Islamic terrorist is. If he ha
29 L-188 : Benjamin Franklin was a man who lived over 200 years ago who had no idea what an airplane, a World Trade Center, or an Islamic terrorist is. If he had
30 Artsyman : Sorry Josh, but the US's color coded warning scheme is the laughing stock of the world despite what Fox News may tell you. **** Only because most peop
31 Artsyman : Another Interesting article I just read from the newspapers proves that whatever you do, you will be hammered for it. The papers(and many of you on he
32 OO-AOG : The fact is simple. If you don't want to be subjected to stringent security measures you don't have to travel to the United States. Period. I agree, I
33 Artsyman : That makes one passenger less to question, open the bags, have the bags hand searched , take the photo, take the fingerprints, have a body search, dou
34 FDXmech : >>>As quite a few posters here have pointed out, the rest of the world has been living with the threat of terrorist attacks for decades - India has, t
35 OO-AOG : Artysman As usual, there is always someone to exaggerate this out of proportion. I fly international in and out of the US all the time, and do not, an
36 B747forlife : Has anyone ever considered that these warnings, and all this other stuff HAS actually prevented an attack? Maybe the terrorists decided not to act bec
37 L-188 : Has anyone ever considered that these warnings, and all this other stuff HAS actually prevented an attack Nope, I wonder if all this "intellegence" an
38 FDXmech : >>>I don't think you appreciate the dangers of databases.
39 L-188 : Actually this strikes me as paranoid. Not really. Just take the database on credit ratings. The error rate is 30% of the total in the system That will
40 SA7700 : Commander_Rabb The majority of the world population can not simply grab their passports, jump on a plane or boat to the USA and present themselves to
41 Airplay : America suffered through the loss of 3,000 citizens (and other nations lost many citizens, as well) on 9/11 due to piss poor homeland security. Americ
42 B747forlife : L-188, see you don't even consider that we have already stopped attacks, wow, way to cynical at best... -Nick
43 Post contains images L-188 : L-188, see you don't even consider that we have already stopped attacks, wow, way to cynical at best... Stopping and delaying are two entirely seperat
44 B747forlife : L-188, what I'm saying is that now that they know that we can hear them when they talk about flights, whether they are just checking around or not, th
45 Alpha 1 : but sometimes paranoia is justified.. Paranoia is NEVER justified. Taking prudent steps is justified; doing things smartly is justified; but giving in
46 Jcs17 : I do not think the government is out to scare people. What would that accomplish? Nothing, in fact, it would be purely counter-productive for the econ
47 777236ER : I do not think the government is out to scare people. What would that accomplish? Nothing Fear is one of the key ingrediants to consumption. The terro
48 Alpha 1 : I do not think the government is out to scare people. What would that accomplish? You show your age in that one, Jcs. Fear is a great weapons that man
49 Yyz717 : America suffered through the loss of 3,000 citizens on 9/11 due to piss poor foreign policy. Not true. America suffered 3000 dead on 9-11 because of p
50 SA7700 : Yyz717 Did you ever see the movie "Black Hawk Down"? If not, I suggest you do.
51 Yyz717 : Did you ever see the movie "Black Hawk Down"? If not, I suggest you do. Yes, I did. Very good fictional drama I suppose. Wasn't it more about Josh Har
52 Alpha 1 : Not true. America suffered 3000 dead on 9-11 because of perceived weakness by Clinton: ROTFLMAO!! Clinton had been out of office over 8 months, if you
53 Yyz717 : The preceived weakness of the US caused by Clinton's inactions carried over to Bush's presidency. As you said, Clinton had ONLY been out of office for
54 Jcs17 : Did you ever see the movie "Black Hawk Down"? If not, I suggest you do. LOL... If that has anything to do with this thread I can't wait to find out.
55 Artsyman : Personally, I think it extremely obvious that the US was in a much stronger and healthier condition under Clinton than it is under Bush. Heck, America
56 Jcs17 : I disagree to a certain extent, Jeremy. The only reasons that the US was "stronger and healthier" under Clinton was: a) the dot com bubble did not bur
57 Jarek : Hi, just wandering. Anybody knows why only visitors from some countries have to have pictures and fingerprints taken? Why not from all the countries?
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