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Independence; England, Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland  
User currently offlineEGFFbmi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2470 times:

I don't know if everyone knows but.. the UK is made up of four countries.. England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.. but do you think any of these countries will become independent?

I hope that Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland get a bit more freedom instead of listening to everything from Number 10...

What do you think?

Regards..

Chris

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGc From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2003, 356 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2434 times:

Scotland and England are technically the only two "Kingdoms" as Wales is a principality (albeit one that was annexed by force by King Edward I) and Northern Ireland is a province, borne out of the peace deal after the Republic of Ireland was formed through uprising.

Scotland actually has some different laws, legal system etc, so it could concevably become independant and be successful if we had good leadership. A large chunk of the UK army regiments in Iraq are Scottish (eg. The Black Watch), so we have some of the elite troops as well as Naval and Air bases already installed in Scotland.


User currently offlineEGFFbmi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2409 times:

I know that Scotland has a rather lot of military bases.. but does Wales?

I know that there is RAF St Athan and RAF Valley and rather a large number of barracks around Wales..

Regards..

Chris

BTW.. Don't forget the Welsh Guards!


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 3, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2403 times:

I hope that Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland get a bit more freedom instead of listening to everything from Number 10...

You're having a laugh, aren't you? Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland all have their own assemblies of parliaments. What's the one country in the UK that doesn't? Yes, England. It's just the English who have no say over their own affairs, being governed directly by the UK Parliament, where Welsh, Scots and Irish MP's can all have their say on English affairs whilst the English don't have any say over the other constituent countries.

Obviously, the English are not important, they only make up 85% of the population, and so it's perfectly reasonable for the government to get through their legislation on England only with the help of the Scots, Welsh and Irish, such as happened recently with foundation hospitals?  Insane

Just to make matters worse, despite not having a parliament of our own, we still subsidise the other members of the UK, who have their own spending plans and priorites. Fantasy? Oh really. Why do you think the Scots have been able to avoid tuition fees for students? Because the English fund them. Now I have absolutely no objection whatsoever to money being redistributed from the affluent south-east to the rest of the UK, but I do object when they then get self-government, and we don't.

I think you'll find a lot of Scots and Welsh who agree with me about this dis-enfranchising of the English. Have you not noticed the resurgence in English nationalism? It's because, for the first time in a couple of centuries, the English actually feel they are being taken for a ride. Over-representation of the Celtic nations in Parliament was never an issue before, but it is now. And it's going to get worse.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineSaintsman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 2065 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2398 times:

Well said Banco. It is a fact that England subsidises the rest and if they look like they are starting to take the piss there could well be calls for independence.



However IMO, we would be better off as a nation if we all stood together. There's nothing wrong with national pride but being British will make us all stronger.


User currently offlineEGFFbmi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2393 times:

All I will say is.... the UK GOVERMENT robbed Wales of it's coal and created many problems here.. you have taken advantage of Scotland's off shore fuel supplies as well as many other things through out history..

Maybe if Wales and Scotland weren't always having business taken away from them and being sent to other regions of the UK they would both be better off

Regards..

Chris


User currently offlineQANTASFOREVER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2392 times:

I have a great big smile on my face right now.

I hope that Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland get a bit more freedom instead of listening to everything from Number 10...

I completely empathise with the plight of the Northern Irish, Scottish and Welsh. Coming from a country that has the legitimacy of it's independence constantly questioned by British culture, I must say that complete governmental independence from England is bliss.

Long live the Independent Principality of Wales, The Kingdom/Republic (?) of Scotland, The Kingdom of England and the Republic of Northern Ireland.

It appears the United Kingdom is not so United. Big grin Big grin Big grin

Qantasforever


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 7, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2389 times:

All I will say is.... the UK GOVERMENT robbed Wales of it's coal and created many problems here.. you have taken advantage of Scotland's off shore fuel supplies as well as many other things through out history..

Maybe if Wales and Scotland weren't always having business taken away from them and being sent to other regions of the UK they would both be better off


Oh, don't be silly. Wales receives huge subsidies from England, far outweighing any "robbing" (and that's a daft word to use anyway) of the coal mines (Wales was a minority of total production by the way). As for business being taken away from them, that's just idiotic. Business dicates that the south east is more affluent, and that's why the government (the UK government) spends a sodding fortune bribing companies to set up outside of the south east. It's why the government shifts government agencies out of the south east. Try actually looking at the facts, and get this anti-English chip off your shoulder. Qantasforever is just as bad. Anything and everything bad that's ever happened to them is the fault of the English.  Insane



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineEGFFbmi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2388 times:

If i'm going to be honest.. I have to admit every time I go to England I always have a look or a snide anti-welsh comment made at me.. and I have a very slight Welsh accent (most people abroad think im Irish)..

If Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland could be as wealthy and prosperous without the UK I would be 'oh so' happy! Big grin

For another example of this hate.. look at the sport events between England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.. all of the Celtic nations hate England and vice versa...GO JOHNNY! LOL... how amusing that is..

Regards..

Chris



User currently offlineEGFFbmi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2386 times:

I will never get this so called anti-English 'chip' off.. the abuse that I have received alone out numbers any reason for me to like England..

BUT

Can we get back to the point of Independence..

Regards..

Chris


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 10, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2383 times:

If Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland could be as wealthy and prosperous without the UK I would be 'oh so' happy

Yes, but the brutal truth of the matter is that you can't. You rely on England, because that's where London is, and that's where most of the UK's wealth is generated. It is then distributed (not by the government so much, more by economic forces) around the whole country.

Put it this way, if Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland declared independence, the English would be a hell of a lot richer. And that says it all.

As for sporting events, what do you expect? The English are the big country, of course you want to beat us.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineGc From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2003, 356 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2382 times:

"Well said Banco. It is a fact that England subsidises the rest and if they look like they are starting to take the piss there could well be calls for independence.

"

Is that why the UK government has sold off most of the Scottish fishing fleet and allowed the EU to ban us from our own waters for half the week whilst France and Spain can fish there as often as they please.


User currently offlineQANTASFOREVER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2381 times:

Banco - Qantasforever is just as bad. Anything and everything bad that's ever happened to them is the fault of the English.

Yep, pretty much. Big grin Big grin Big grin

Seriously though, I'm sure there are some nice things about England - I can't actually think of any at this (or any other) time, but I'm sure they're out there somewhere.  Big grin

OH wait - of course. Banco - a national treasure.

QFF







User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2375 times:

Yep, pretty much

Actually, I did mean to add a  Big grin smiley at the end of my comment, since you are congenitally incapable of passing up any opportunity to have a sly dig at us. Never mind - one of these days we'll engange in a serious discussion. Big grin

Gc - that government incompetence affects the English fleet as well. It was down to Edward Heath signing away our waters upon EU accession. But, yes, I agree with you on the principle.

EGFFbmi:I will never get this so called anti-English 'chip' off.. the abuse that I have received alone out numbers any reason for me to like England..

Since you seem to blame the English for everything it seems hardly surprising to me that you will receive stick. Rather more mature people get good natured ribbing - on both sides of Offa's Dyke. I'm old enough to remember non-stop Welsh abuse over their superior rugby side. Do I now hate the Welsh? Don't be absurd. I just give it back and pray that the wheel doesn't turn around too soon.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2371 times:

Oh and to suggest in sport that the English hate the "Celtic" countries is even more daft. Firstly, the English find any actual "hate" rather baffling, and second, have you actually been to a rugby match? You'll find all fans mix and drink with each other, and just take the piss.

Football is another issue, but the English hooligans don't hate the Celts, they hate everyone, including the English, 'cos they'll fight amongst themselves if no-one else is around.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16363 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2365 times:

Since Scotland is heavily subsidized by the English, you would think that Scotland would be eternally greatful for the English. They should be.

Seriously though, I'm sure there are some nice things about England - I can't actually think of any at this (or any other) time, but I'm sure they're out there somewhere.

Since something like 90% of Aussies have English background, the evidence of England should be apparent every time you step you step outside your door....from the overwhelming English blood in Australia, to the English customs of rule of law, parliament, free enterprise, etc.

You personally owe a lot to English customs QANTASforever, and by extension to English-descended peoples.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13252 posts, RR: 77
Reply 16, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2357 times:

Yeah we are terrible Qantas, really f***** you over haven't we?
Terrible life for you in that nation down under, with all that terrible British derived stability (you'd inaccurately say 'English' no doubt, but many of the top 'Empire Builders' were Scots) and rule of law which ensured it's prosperity.
Hate us so much and all we represent, (still apparent in Oz, bet that hurts you), then why not piss off to somewhere the British/English haven't 'contaminated', I dunno, Albania? Bolivia? Belarus maybe?

To the subject, the Welsh and Scots Nationalists are BS merchants, most of 'their' people see that so they don't win, really a protest vote at best.
But if it happened, so be it.
Perhaps the Celtic fringe North of the border would find life tough without us to blame, for us, we won't miss being tainted by being British because of the ugly inter-religious bigotry in some parts of the UK.

What I love is when the nationalists assume that most English people are as screwed up and bitter towards them as they are towards us, we don't care, it hardly registers.

Me? If I'm asked, I'm British, English I suppose is more accurate, I prefer British.


User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2339 times:
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Could someone tell me who so many people hesitate being British? Britain is a beautiful example of how different countries and ethnic groups can be combined to creat a powerful and strong identity, that identity is British. Each of the four home nations have their own unique identity and tradition, combine all that and it creates the British identity. This is someone to celebrate and cherish, not deride, sneer at and create bogus reasons for "independance", independance from what oppression? Or is the call for independance merely a ego-boosting exercise?



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineEGFFbmi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2337 times:

I would like to be called British on a more of a wider basis but when you go abroad you are normally referred to as "English".. seeing as im "Welsh" I take it to heart.. and it does annoy me quite a lot.. not that I don't mind the people of England it's just that im a Welsh, British citizen not an English, British citizen.

Regards...

Chris


User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 19
Reply 19, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2334 times:
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That's because the Welsh are a minority when it comes to the British population. When a foreigner meets a Briton, he/she would instinctively think you're English because the British population is over 80% English, it's quite obvious. When foreign nationals think "British" they usually think England and English, some even go as far as referring to "England's government", which most of it is out of ignorance.



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineBobrayner From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2003, 2227 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2323 times:

I don't know if everyone knows but.. the UK is made up of four countries.. England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.. but do you think any of these countries will become independent?

I hope that Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland get a bit more freedom instead of listening to everything from Number 10...


Depends on your definition of country. Most people would consider the UK to be a country; and one country can't be a superset of other countries, can it?

A different noun might be appropriate. "Region" is too vague. "Nation" is closer to the mark but rather emotive; just what separatists would want, though.

What's the one country in the UK that doesn't? Yes, England. It's just the English who have no say over their own affairs, being governed directly by the UK Parliament, where Welsh, Scots and Irish MP's can all have their say on English affairs whilst the English don't have any say over the other constituent countries.

Go ahead; form independent countries if you want. Form independent budgets too - I'm sure the English wouldn't mind throwing off the yoke of Scotland, Wales, and NI, who all (IIRC) have a larger share of public expenditure than of public revenue.

which most of it is out of ignorance

Unfortunately, this ignorance has (in the past) been encouraged by many English.

Is that why the UK government has sold off most of the Scottish fishing fleet and allowed the EU to ban us from our own waters for half the week whilst France and Spain can fish there as often as they please.

I'd love to see some evidence for this.  Big grin



Cunning linguist
User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24964 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2307 times:

Obviously, the English are not important

Finally you admit it Banco  Big thumbs up

Since Scotland is heavily subsidized by the English, you would think that Scotland would be eternally greatful for the English. They should be.

Uh huh...  Insane  Insane

BTW, Everybody hates England at any sport, purely because of the sheer arrogance of English sports stars, the English media (especially Jimmy Hill and Gary Linekar  Angry ) and a large number of English supporters (those who cause trouble). Maybe if they were a bit more like Scottish fans (drinking and having a good time without causing trouble), we wouldnt hate you as much  Big grin



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineGc From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2003, 356 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2300 times:

"I'd love to see some evidence for this."

Either go to the North of Scotland and speak to the hundreds of fishermen who've lost their livelihood, or pick up any newspaper in Scotland which carries the story....we've been well and truly shafted as usual


User currently offlineEGFFbmi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2292 times:

I am not a fan of the EU at all..France and Germany seem to be running the UK..

I am disgraced to be called European.. I'm a British Citizen.. Except when I’m abroad im called English...  Nuts

Let's face it the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish are seen as second class people when our English counterparts look at us...

Regards..

Chris


User currently offlinePHX-LJU From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2279 times:

Arsenal@LHR wrote:

"Each of the four home nations have their own unique identity and tradition, combine all that and it creates the British identity."

Well, the same exact thing holds true for the European identity, of which you, and some other British members, are always so critical. Each European nation has its own identity and history, but when combined, a fascinating and unique European identity emerges.

"This is someone to celebrate and cherish, not deride, sneer at and create bogus reasons for "independance", independance from what oppression?"

Again, you could apply the same to the European identity: To paraphrase your own words, being European is definitely something to celebrate and cherish, not deride, sneer at and create bogus reasons for "national sovereignty," sovereignty from what, oppression?

It's just funny that you claim how the four parts of the UK can live together in harmony and enjoy a common identity, yet get all upset about a united Europe.

EGFFbmi wrote:

I am disgraced to be called European.."

Fortunately, most other people who live in Europe don't share your feelings.

[Edited 2004-01-11 19:20:57]

25 Yyz717 : I am disgraced to be called European.." Fortunately, most other people who live in Europe don't share your feelings. Actually, alot of Europeans feel
26 Banco : Unfortunately, EGFFbmi, most countries will tend to use English and British interchangeably. I think it's nowadays relatively rare for an Englishman t
27 Arsenal@LHR : Well, the same exact thing holds true for the European identity, of which you, and some other British members, are always so critical. Each European n
28 PHX-LJU : Banco wrote: "To say that there is a clear parallel with a political project since the last war is an utterly misleading and specious comparison." The
29 Post contains images Bobrayner : I think there's enough argument on Britain / England / Scotland / Wales / NI. We don't need to add the EU! Save it for another thread
30 Post contains links Gc : "If it's such a widespread resentment, you should have little difficulty finding a news article that says foreign fishermen can roam British seas at w
31 Post contains links Gc : http://www.news.scotsman.com/archive.cfm?id=26902004 Oh, here's another!! Finnie backtracks on fisheries deal FRANK URQUHART ROSS Finnie, the minister
32 Paulc : As an Englishman I find it distateful that many Scots generally want the English to fail at sport. Yes I will support England in any sporting event bu
33 Post contains images GKirk : Last world cup we supported Brazil Argentina was in 1998 Go Brazil and Argentina! Go Holland for Euro 2004
34 Paulc : England played Argentina - with a 1-0 win as the result - i was watching it in HK at the time
35 Post contains images GKirk : Oh yeah, forgot about that one The dive for the penalty
36 Go Canada! : " hope that Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland get a bit more freedom instead of listening to everything from Number 10..." well i did have to laugh
37 Gc : "well i did have to laugh, what policy is realli imposed on scotland? they wont have top up fees or foundation hospitials and dont have their airports
38 Banco : The Poll Tax would be a fair point, were i not for the fact that it was abolsiehd fifteen years ago. I think many in England would agree that Thatcher
39 Bobrayner : and, trust me, our trains are just as crap north of the border ...despite generous operating subsidies from the centre. I'm curious how Scottish rail
40 Post contains images Banco : The over-representation in Scotland is deliberate, Bobrayner. It was designed to counterweight the huge difference in population between England and S
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