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Is Ford ****ed?  
User currently offlineANA From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 294 posts, RR: 1
Posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1338 times:

Car topic of the day: Do you think that Ford in such trouble (read disarray with no solutions) that it may go bankrupt or be bought by another car co?

Anders

46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1324 times:

Ford wouldn't have any problem if it was not making such crappy cars...


Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineMYT332 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 9112 posts, RR: 70
Reply 2, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1322 times:

Fall Off Repair Daily


One Life, Live it.
User currently offlineJkw777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1319 times:

Ford wouldn't have any problem if it was not making such crappy cars...

I half heartedly agree with you. Looking at recent models I think that they are totally crap. My mum drives a 1995 Ford Escort TD which has nearly 180,000 miles on the clock. It has had regular services and no problems with MOT's. This car is still going to this day.

Another car company buying out Ford would be a major help for them. But I really wouldn't want that.

Just my two pennies,

Justin  Big thumbs up

[Edited 2004-02-12 15:37:57]

User currently offlineANA From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 294 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1311 times:

I am not sure Bill Ford is the man for the top job.

Firstly, yes, make great cars. Look at Nissan, along comes Ghosn who, along with cost cutting, redefined how they design cars. He saw the new Z prototype and said build it. Nissan is now turning out many cars that everyone wants....and even with the exchange rate check out the latest profits against the huge losses just 3 years ago. Another example - GM has managed to turn round (against all the odds) Cadillac by producing cars people want.

One of the biggest mistakes for Ford was getting rid of Reitzle as head of PAG. The guy was responsible for best crop of BMWs ever including the last (i.e not newest) 5 - the best sedan ever. He would have made Jaguar, Volvo and Lincoln great. And possibly Range Rover. Then he may have moved onto the bread and butter Fords. Instead the only bright spot is Aston Martin and, let's face it, 3000 cars a year are not going to help.

At the rate Ford is burning cash (I worked out loosely the equivalent of destroying 3 Focuses every minute) they will run out of their cash pile before they know it. Then they will sell Volvo (the only profitable part of PAG I believe) and then, er, I am not sure. But they are not either, so I don't feel too silly.

Mind you, the Ford Focus is the best handling car in its class in Europe. So that's Ok then.

Anders



User currently offlineTsv From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 1641 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1280 times:

Wonder what former Ford top man Jac Nasser is doing these days?


"I told you I was ill ..." Spike Milligan
User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7780 posts, RR: 16
Reply 6, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1251 times:

Ford and to a lesser extent GM's biggest problem is that they flat out ignored new car development for the better part of 5 years... focusing too much on light trucks and SUVs. As a result they have ceded passenger car sales to Toyota and Honda in North America. Luckily it looks as if Ford and GM have really developed some good new passenger cars in the past year or so. If they can get the quality to match that of the Japanese rivals and don't need to pour on the incentive funds to move them off of the lots then they may be onto something.


I would highly doubt a buyoff (if Ford was in dire straits). Perhaps the stuff in PAG would be cherry picked away, but not FoMoCo outright. I think the Daimler-Chrysler merger showed that a large automotive merger just does not work. Plus I'll second the opinion that Bill Ford is not the guy to be running Ford. They need to get the Ford's and the Firestone's out of the upper ranks of management at that company. Just b/c their great granddad's name is on the grill, does not entitle them to a high level job there.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39886 posts, RR: 74
Reply 7, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1236 times:

Shame on all of you. Ford makes the best cars in the world. I have only bought Ford/Mercury/Lincoln cars for as as long as I have been driving.
Ford is still a car company that has designers design there cars. I can't believe ANA made a comparison to Nissan and Cadillac. Probably the two ugliest lines of autos across the board. The only thing keeping Cadillac alive is there ugly Escalade. Why do you think stretched limos use Town Cars instead of Devilles? Nissan and Cadillac uses as much plastic cladding as Mitsushitsi.
Ford has a beautiful line up of autos; Thunderbird, Mustang, Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis/Maurader, Town Car, F-350 as well as the Jaguar Vanden Plas, XK8, S-Type and there Aston Martin division.

Many companies are hurting right now. After we toss out Bush, people will start working again and car sales will rise.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1233 times:

It's scary when I thank god that Superfly has brought some sensability to a thread!!!  Big grin

User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4781 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1224 times:

Agreed that Ford's biggest mistake was giving up on passenger car sales to go all-out for the SUV fad. The only two four-door sedans they offered for sale were the Focus (good car, but had a lot of reliability problems in the beginning) and the Taurus, which had its last major redesign in 1996.

Ford is really going in the right direction now with the upcoming Mustang and Five Hundred. It is Chrudsler that should be worried.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39886 posts, RR: 74
Reply 10, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1218 times:

CPDC10-30:
You forgot all about the Crown Victoria. That has to be the best buy on the market. You get a 6 passenger sedan with everything, V8 power (235HP), very comfortable ride all for the price of a fully loaded Honda Civic.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineN312RC From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 2682 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1214 times:

Contrary to all you naysayers, I think Ford is rising. That moron Jacques Nasser screwed them up with his plan to turn Ford more into a global automotive services company. He let them stray from their core product (automobiles).

Bill Ford is the man for the job, he carries the Ford name and has a vested interest in the company (after all, his family owns a shitload of stock). Bill Ford is like the famous Henry "Hank the Deuce" II that resurrected Ford after the old man went crazy with Harry Bennett by his side. He'd never let anything happen to the company. People fail to understand that top Ford management isnt really management in the traditional sense. The company is part of their family. Theres roots behind Ford, its not some cold, nameless corporate body.

Ford leads the US truck market and has for the past dozen or more years and for the first time theyre beefing up their product line with new vehicles like the Five-Hundred, Futura, Freestyle, and new Mustang. Ford is modernizing itself and doing a damn good job of it. Years of neglecting the car lines have left hurting over there but they have one hell of a strong market in their SUV's. They have cashflow from the SUV and truck lines to build up the car lines.

For the first time ever, Ford got its Premier Automotive Group (Aston Martin, Jaguar, Land Rover, Volvo) to turn a profit... if they were f-ed that wouldnt be happening. Theyre rising again, turning a profit, making themselves lean and mean and ready to take on everybody else.

PS. Ford would never sell out to anybody.



Fly Delta's Big Jets!
User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4781 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1211 times:

You're right, I did leave it out but it is because it is a lot more expensive here in Canada (37,000+).

I had a rental 2003 Crown Victoria when I was driving from Toronto to Washington and return last year. It was very comfortable, espescially for a big guy like myself. I didn't even have to move the seat all the way back for once! The fuel economy was not bad, around the same as I get in rental Tauruses and a bit worse than my Maxima. But still good for a V-8. The engine was strong, but it always felt as though it would pause for a bit before responding to the throttle inputs.

If Ford had maybe spent an extra $1000 in each Grand Marquis or Crown Vic to improve the interior materials quality and ergonomics it would be a really good car.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39886 posts, RR: 74
Reply 13, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1210 times:

N312RC:
Wow, that was your best post in all of you r years here at A.net.  Big thumbs up


Theres roots behind Ford, its not some cold, nameless corporate body.

Exactly!
Just look at General Motors. I am suprised they haven't started to make cellphones, calculators and milkshake blenders.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineN312RC From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 2682 posts, RR: 16
Reply 14, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1206 times:

Thanks Supa-fly,

Im a Ford defender all the way. Im quite interested in their history, etc...





Fly Delta's Big Jets!
User currently offlineTanyaluvs2fly From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 351 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1186 times:

I own a 2000 ford focus SE loaded... I have been through 5 recalls with it.. then I had a problem with the trunk not working... i'm just waiting for them to recall the whole car! LOL I have always had fords.. and I love this car, but its driving me CRAZY  Smile


Live, Laugh, Love!
User currently offlineANA From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 294 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1176 times:

Ok here are some more of my points from the point made

Rebates: New car buyers in the US (and now Europe) have become expectant of a rebate on a new car purchase and even Toyota is offering them more and more (averaging $2,900 per vehicle). This is an industry-wide problem but some manufacturers (esp the Japanese) are able to mange these because they are more efficient and productive in their plants - Ford can't afford this.

SUVs: The big three market share is being seriously eroded by the Japanese. Look at the roads. Ford market share is dropping - although that is not to say because their products are bad. The trouble is that they don't sufficiently fight the Japanese (and Germans) with equally good sedans. This is, to a degree, being rectified by Ford (and GM).

Mergers: The best bits would be cherry picked first. All of the PAG could be sold off independently. Don't know about Lincoln. I agree DaimlerChrysler shows mergers can go wrong, but look at Renault Nissan (ok not a full merger) and you can see how very well they can go too.

Quality: This is becoming less of an issue. The defects per car has dropped dramatically from the worst offenders (although I still wouldn't buy a Fiat in Europe) so although the Japanese are ahead, it is nowhere near as much. Actually Toyota's reliability has dropped a very little recently.

Design: More and more car makers are designing niche models - in many cases thru platform sharing as well as pushing design. Look at Bangles new Bimmer 5 and 7 (and 6and Z4 even) for fresh design and the Golf platform for the Audi TT and Beetle - lo production run/niche cars but cost little extra to make. This is what buyers want now. Actually the Golf 5 has sold about 20% less in 2003 than VW anticipated and probably because it looks, well, dull, even if it drives (almost) as well as the Focus. I think Ford has made strides here in the US but not in Europe - a big bad money hole for Ford - where they have no 7 seater mini-MPV, no roadster, no convertible, no coupe.

PAG: I say again, Volvo is the only profitable part of it. Jaguar is hemorrhaging money. The new big (aluminum) Jag is a beauty, for sure, but it will never get close to the Merc S-Class. Aston is well run and has 3 great cars, but for Ford is is a drop in the ocean - 1/2% of total production?

Current cars: I guess there is an element of personal taste here (new Mustang, Thunderbird, F-350 excluded as everyone should love all 3) but as lovely as the Town Car is to look at it is rubbish inside and drives like a barge. I can think of 15 same class cars I'd rather have. There are other nice cars - I love the Lincoln LS (a Jaguar S-Type underneath) but they are still not up with the best. In Europe Jag, although a lovely range, has real street credibility problems against Merc, Audi, Jag and (sadly) Lexus.

Bill Ford: Is not the man for the job. You need a horrid, cost cutting, factory improving, supplier beating CEO who, at the same time, cherishes design. He is not that. Being a Ford is great, sit in on the board meets, show an interest, have an important position, but what the company needs right now is a car exec with real real long term experience. I'd give the job to Reitzle.

I better stop, if I had been in a Ford I'd have broken down a long time ago.

Anders


User currently offlineAWspicious From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1159 times:

Given a choice of only Ford (Fix Or Repair Daily), General Motors (G-D Morons) or Chrysler (Jeezus Chrysler)... I would choose Ford every time. I've always preferred Ford over the other two. I think out of the three, GM has been the company who least cared about sensible customer's expectations and opted instead for the "tough guy" image (think Pontiac). As for Ford's recent Thunderbird design - Well... I'm sort of curious to know how's that working for 'en. I personally cannot stand the car. The 2000 Focus - They were plagued with problems. The new Focus has been a far superior automobile.
My daily beater is a '96 Escort (emphasis on the word beater). This car takes a lickin and keeps on tickin (...or is that something wrong with the transmission?). Only other North American car I would consider is a Buick Century... For the understated side in me ;-]

aw


User currently onlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8269 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1156 times:

Found On Road Dead.....

Oh, so true.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineBruno From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 853 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1142 times:

First On Race Day!  Smile

I am glad to see someone mentioned my F-350. I have a 1991 with diesel engine and it's over 180,000 miles on original engine, transmission, water pump, alternator, power steering pump etc.
This truck is very low maintenance and I can haul any Nissan or Cadillac to the repair shop.  Smile


ANA

as lovely as the Town Car is to look at it is rubbish inside and drives like a barge

It's supposed to handle like a barge. That's why it's the longest production line sedan in the world. Cadillac had a better barge until they discontinued the B-body flatform in the 1996 model year.


Mercedes S-class and BMW 7 series are all nice cars but don't look all that exciting on the outside. That Mercedes S-Class looks like a Honda Accord. The Jaguar Vanden Plas and Lincoln Town Car totally outclasses the Mercedes.



I support the women’s movement up and down!
User currently offlineN312RC From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 2682 posts, RR: 16
Reply 20, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 1130 times:

Bill Ford: Is not the man for the job. You need a horrid, cost cutting, factory improving, supplier beating CEO who, at the same time, cherishes design. He is not that. Being a Ford is great, sit in on the board meets, show an interest, have an important position, but what the company needs right now is a car exec with real real long term experience. I'd give the job to Reitzle.

He IS the man for the job because what do you think he's been doing? cost cutting, factory improving, supplier beating, and he LOVES design.. hell, look at the GT40, new Mustang, and even the prototype Cobra. I dont know where the heck you get off saying this stuff.. I guess you just dont get the Detroit News and see it every day like I do.

Mergers: The best bits would be cherry picked first. All of the PAG could be sold off independently. Don't know about Lincoln. I agree DaimlerChrysler shows mergers can go wrong, but look at Renault Nissan (ok not a full merger) and you can see how very well they can go too.

Now that Ford and the PAG DNA have started weaving together through underpinnings etc, this wouldnt be easy. The new Volvo S40 is on a Focus chassis, Jag S-type and Lincoln LS share parts, Mazda 3/6 share with Fords... etc. You dont know about Lincoln huh? I'd like to see where you think this stuff up because cutting Lincoln off of Ford is like cutting an arm off a man. First of all, theres alot of history behind the line.. Edsel Ford got Henry I to buy it off Henry Leyland and then eventually made the line into what it is today. Lincoln is so.... part.... of the company, and the FAMILY, that Bill Ford could never sell his grandfather's creation.

In regard to your comment about the Japanese eroding Fords SUV market share? Think again. The Explorer is the best selling SUV of all time and the current redesign is kicking the ass of everything out there.

When we talk about rebates we have to think about the fact that the UAW holds Ford back big time when it comes to efficiency. Sure they cant keep going with the rebates forever, but that doesnt mean their factories are inefficient. Its the union that causes problems, not the company. Let me also point out that Ford Motor Credit made the largest profit in its history not too long ago...


Theres no coupe/roadster/convertable in Europe? Seen the KA/STREETKA lately?


Lastly, you complain about the Lincoln Town Car.. that "barge" is a gold mine for Ford. They make a crapload on every one of those cars. Also, most people who buy that "barge" are 80 years old and like that kind of handling.



Fly Delta's Big Jets!
User currently offlineBruno From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 853 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 1125 times:

N312RC

Also, most people who buy that "barge" are 80 years old......

Uh-oh, Superfly is going to have to correct you on that one. Big grin

The Town Car frame dates back to 1979 and it still whips circles around that plastic unibody front-driver driver Cadillac is trying to pass off as a luxury car.



I support the women’s movement up and down!
User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 1123 times:

I drive a 1998 Ford Mustang (MFD. 8/97) Runs like a dream. I got it with a $3,000 Turbocharger installed with Duo-Turbo Mufflers, so she makes some noise too. It takes a few seconds to get it started because of the turbo. It has to start turning and get enough air fuel mixture to ignite. It sounds just like a turbojet engine.

User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8507 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1123 times:

Bruno, go read this link that compares a Lincoln Town Car Cartier L ($52,000) versus a Mercedes E-class ($61,000). Believe or not, the Town Car actually gets better gas mileage than the Mercedes. I was surprised.

http://www.thecarplace.com/03tcmb.htm


versus


Superfly, how long has it been since the underlying chassis of the Crown Vic/Marquis/Town Car has been fully redesigned? The 80's? Or early 90's? And I remember a good article in Popular Mechanics years and years ago comparing a Town Car, Cadillac, and Mercedes limos. It was neat.

And I still can't believe you Ford 460 power 26 ft motorhome (1986) model got better gas mileage than your land barge. 7.5 versus 7.0 MPG!

Frankly I'd only consider Ford if I was buying an SUV or a truck. The SVT Focus is a great car, but I can't stand the freeflowing interior. GM's likewise suck, except for the fullsized vans and trucks. Chrysler? mmmm...the Ram's ok. And all 3 of them need to improve reliability, just like VW does.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39886 posts, RR: 74
Reply 24, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1107 times:

MD-90:
Great article.

Superfly, how long has it been since the underlying chassis of the Crown Vic/Marquis/Town Car has been fully redesigned? The 80's? Or early 90's?

1979 was the year. It's called the 'Panther' platform. The 1979 LTD and Grand Marquis was the first downsized Fords. GM did it in 1977, Chrysler and Ford did it in 1979.

The LTD/Grand Marquis reskin was for the 1992 model year and it's dropped the LTD name and was called 'Crown Victoria'. The Crown Victoria was a trim level offered on the LTD starting the 1980 model year. The Town Car reskin was for 1990 and again in 1998. The frame still dates back to 1979.
I guess Ford was way ahead of it's time in 1979.  Smile

My landyatch is supposed to get 9MPG city but I have the heavy duty trailer hitch that weights about 250lbs. I need to remove it. I still have as much pick up as the 2003 Town Car but mines weights about 1100lbs. more.



Bring back the Concorde
25 Flight152 : The Jaguar Vanden Plas and Lincoln Town Car totally outclasses the Mercedes. Talk about ignorance. The Lincoln Town car doesn't even come close to the
26 Post contains images Essjay : Here in South Africa, Ford has a very poor reputation...and for good reason: their offerings in recent times have been garbage! Should we be surprised
27 Marcus : In terms of worldwide sales volumes............Ford has gone down to number 3 and Toyota has taken the number 2 spot............GM is still by far num
28 BR715-A1-30 : Can anyone tell me why a turbocharger (My car has a huge one) takes so long to get started. I figured that once the fuel was ignited, it would start t
29 Post contains images Superfly : Flight152: No need to do any research and my comments aren't ignorant. The Jaguar and Lincoln Town Car looks and rides like a luxury car should. The S
30 L-188 : Essjay. Keep in mind that there are two Ford car companies. I suspec they are the ones that sold cars in SA. The ones in Europe and unrelated to those
31 Skystar : How is Ford Europe doing? Their products are excellent - the Focus (Euro Focus seems to be much better than the North American one, far fewer reliabil
32 Flight152 : The Jaguar and Lincoln Town Car looks and rides like a luxury car should. The S-series Mercedes dosen't look much different from the poor man's C-clas
33 Sophiemaltese : I have a Ford Explorer. I'm not going to go as far as saying it's a total piece of junk, but I'd expect more from a car that is a 2001. My Audi didn't
34 Advancedkid : I can only trust my German made car more than any others made elsewhere, sorry. Comparing any Mercedes with any Ford product would be just a joke, Jus
35 Post contains images Superfly : Flight152: Corner? What corner? The Jaguar X-Type looks nothing like the Vanden Plas. The degrees of separation is much greater than the S to C class
36 Cptkrell : I kinda like and mostly agree w/ N312RC's analogy. Most of my Ford buddies at design are retired now and I don't get all the horses-mouth rumors, but
37 Post contains images Superfly : Cptkrell: at least it doesn't look wuss like the new GTO). Well said! Do you have any idea what FoMoCo will do with the Lincoln Contenintal concept?
38 MD-90 : I really like the looks of the current Mustang (not the brand new retro model). But dang it does have a chintzy and cheap interior.
39 Post contains images Flight152 : The Jaguar X-Type looks nothing like the Vanden Plas. Hahaha Superfly. Jaguar Vanden Plas (retail $68,995) Jaguar X-type (retail $29,900) Fact is, the
40 Cptkrell : S Fly; yes, the ole BOF has served them (FoMoCo) well. Don't want to "sez" anything off-color about newer mods, but will be happy to relay things I fi
41 Post contains links AvObserver : Per Marcus: "In terms of worldwide sales volumes............Ford has gone down to number 3 and Toyota has taken the number 2 spot............GM is sti
42 Post contains images Superfly : Cptkrell: A good friend of mine is a car historian purist. Is it OK if he sends you an email. Flight152: Huh? I can't make heads or tails of your las
43 Flight152 : Superfly I posted pictures of the Jaguar Vanden Plas the the Jaguar X-type to show how similar they look, where you said they look nothing alike.
44 Post contains images Douglas DC-9 : My dad only drives a 2000 Jaguar XK8, along with a 2002 Ford Explorer and my mother 2000 Cadillac Escalade. My father has had I think 3 or 4 Explorers
45 B741 : Found on road dead or fix or repair daily.
46 Post contains images Marcus : Interesting article AvObserver...........specially after receiving and article from Reuters as the weekly internal memo, this mentioned that Toyota ha
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