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Question(s) For You Religious Buffs.  
User currently offlineAa61hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 57
Posted (10 years 10 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1934 times:

1. If a person was born mentally ill in some form, and the person kills someone, but they did not know it was wrong because of the disease will they still go to hell? (Thou shall not kill)

2. If a person in the most remote country does not know that God exists, so therefore can not believe in a religion, will they go to hell because they do not believe in God? Though they do not know there is a higher being.

I have always been wondering these questions...


Go big or go home
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 10 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1920 times:

There are no absolutes. I think most faiths reserve final judgment for their respective "Gods". This of course doesn't absolve us to answering to a more tangible authority...the local police.

Many TV evangelists will try to convince you that his/her interpretation of various scripture is absolute and correct, but most intelligent people know better.


User currently offlineJj From Algeria, joined Jun 2001, 1227 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (10 years 10 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1916 times:

These are hard questions!

1- If the mentally ill person kills someone not knowing it... i don't believe he'd go to hell, because it probably wasn't his intention, or was not aware of what he was doing.

2- I believe he wouldn't go to hell for not knowing... but I cannot really answer that since I'm not a priest or anything...


User currently offlineAC320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 10 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1909 times:

Well from a Jewish point of view according to what I've studied.....

1- It's a moot point since hell does not exist

2- Judaism teaches that the righteous of all nations (i.e religions, creeds, etc..) have a place in the world to come. The issue is not simply faith, but what one does in this world.


User currently offlineNormalSpeed From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (10 years 10 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1896 times:

1. If a person was born mentally ill in some form, and the person kills someone, but they did not know it was wrong because of the disease will they still go to hell? (Thou shall not kill)

The big thing that we stress in our church is accountability, so I'm going to say that no, a mentally ill person that was truly unaware that their actions were wrong will not go to "hell." (I put the term "hell" in quotations because our church has a little different perspective than others concerning that.)

2. If a person in the most remote country does not know that God exists, so therefore can not believe in a religion, will they go to hell because they do not believe in God? Though they do not know there is a higher being.

Sort of the same question, sort of the same answer. You have to recieve the law before you can live it.

-Normal





User currently offlineSleekjet From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2049 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (10 years 10 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1899 times:

1. I wouldn't think so, but it is always tough trying to think like God thinks.

2. I don't think you can be held responsible for knowing God and Christ when you've not been told of such. However, I feel that we are born with a moral compass, as it were, which gives us direction even when the teaching is absent. I think God would judge them according their adherence to that moral foundation.



II Cor. 4:17-18
User currently offlineKYIPpilot From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1383 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (10 years 10 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1881 times:

I have always wondered if someone born in, say, war-torn Africa, and since birth has known nothing but killing, stealing, rape, etc. as a way of life, and do it themselves, will they go to hell? If they have never learned about religion or God, how can they go to hell if their morals are killing?


"It starts when you're always afraid; You step out of line, the man come and take you away" -Buffalo Springfield
User currently offlineGo4EVA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 10 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1876 times:

God will judge with perfect justice, of that we have been assured many times in the Bible. God deals with people in a just manner. He is also able to see into our hearts, what our true thoughts are, not just how we present them outwardly:

1. If a person was born mentally ill and murders, was the person's INTENT to murder, mindful of the implications? Doubtful. Besides, the answer to that question (the intent) is already known to God.

2. Does a person genuinely seek God? Again, what is in his/her heart? Since God is just, it is reasonable to believe that He will likely give some form of revelation to that person. However, the Bible is silent in that area. We will have to wait and ask God "personally" when we meet Him.

God bless,

- Jeff


User currently offlineGo4EVA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 10 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1871 times:

Aa61hvy and all,

I have read many posts here in the non-av. forum which reflect honest, but often false commentary about the Christian faith. There are many excellent sites on the net with all the info about what we believe. A really good place to start is:

http://www.christiananswers.net

God bless,

- Jeff


User currently offlineIMisspiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6345 posts, RR: 33
Reply 9, posted (10 years 10 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1865 times:

The answer to both is no. Charles Manson will likely spend eterntiy in hell, Adolph Hilter will certainly but it is, in my opinion, reserved for the truly evil.


Damn, this website is getting worse daily.
User currently offlineAdvancedkid From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (10 years 10 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1854 times:

Hi,

I agree very much with Sleekjet.

Advanced


User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (10 years 10 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1821 times:

I'd agree with most floks on the first, answer could be no for the most part.

In hinudism, we don't have a "hell", or at least I've never been taught of one. Rather, the greatest torture of any soul is to be reincarnated. We have something like heaven, in hindi it is pronounced "Vy-koon-ta" and it is more or less located outside the known universe, it's where God lives as the 'over-seer' and if you're good, you hang with him forever. 'Good' meaning that like Buddhism, one must pray a lot and meditate and since most folks in the world care more for material objects in life, they end up getting recycled as their sentence. That does not make them bad or sinful, just that not everyone gets to go to God, it's like an exclusive club.  Wink/being sarcastic

Of course if oneself is not aware (like not knowing another's God) I do not see how one can be punished on the ideologies of another's religion.

Go4EVA, dude don't depend on another's ideas about God, you should be referencing your Bible; where your opinions, ideas and most cherrished beliefs stand on their own. My only bias in this case is that I first found that website 6 years ago for a humanities term paper and discovered it's fraudulant attempt to mix science into the religion. I felt the website had insecurities, as if the Bible itself was not enough to believe in. Essentially, the Bible is the only book you need, that and...well it will vary on interpretation and perspectives. Just don't go around selling the religion and peace be with you.



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineGo4EVA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 10 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1817 times:

Lehpron,

Go4EVA, dude don't depend on another's ideas about God, you should be referencing your Bible; where your opinions, ideas and most cherrished beliefs stand on their own.

I agree. In post 7, I gave an answer based on my Bible... And remember, on some issues the Bible is silent. That was part of my answer.

In post 8, I gave a link to a resource for those who do not or will not read the Bible, for whatever reason. I have looked the site over and found that it generally gives sound scriptural summaries and answers to questions for those who are searching and don't want to start with reading the Bible.

As for myself, I do read parts of the Bible almost every day and have read it cover-to-cover.

As I said, I agree with you, the source is the best.

Hey ! You go to ERAU-PC? I graduated from there ~20years ago. COOL!

God bless,

- Jeff


User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8508 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (10 years 10 months 6 days ago) and read 1806 times:

1. No. God has infinite mercy for such people and their actions.

2. This is a much harder question to answer, and a lot of Christians wonder about the same exact thing. Personally, the Bible says that God reveals Himself in His own way to every person, so I guess that even people who have never heard of Jesus can still get saved.

Romans 1:20 KJV - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

However, Christians are charged with the responsibility of spreading the good news as far and as wide as they can, so that everyone has an opportunity to hear it and decide for himself. There are also some astounding examples of missionaries who have gone on mission trips and discovered people who have never heard of Christianity, and yet they were prepared to accept it in ways that can't be explained by conventional thinking.

http://net-burst.net/hot/miracle.htm

African prophets
The Gedeo were a half-million strong Ethiopian tribe who believed in Magano, the benevolent, omnipotent, Creator of everything. And yet few prayed to Magano. They were far more concerned about trying to appease Sheit’an, an evil spirit. They felt they did not know Magano well enough to be free from this evil spirit. One day, however, a Gedeo man, Warrasa, prayed that Magano reveal himself to the Gedeo people. Then followed a vision in which he saw two white-skinned strangers erect temporary shelters under a certain sycamore tree near Warrasa’s hometown, Dilla. Later they built more permanent shiny-roofed structures. Warrasa had never seen either type of dwelling before. A voice told him that these men would bring a message from Magano. During the next eight years other Gedeo soothsayers prophesied that strangers would soon arrive with a message from Magano. At the end of 1948, missionaries Brunt and Cain planned to set up base far from Dilla but the political climate forced them to decide on Dilla. So two white men erected tents under that very sycamore tree Warrasa had seen in his vision. Events continued to unfold in accordance with the vision. Today there are tens of thousands of Gedeo Christians. (54-56)

(Of course, there’s nothing special about being white. It’s just an historical fact that for some people groups it was white people who first brought them the Gospel.)

‘What happened among the Gedeo is by no means an isolated incident,’ writes Don Richardson. ‘Incredible as it seems, literally thousands of Christian missionaries down through history have been startled by exuberant welcome even among some of the earth’s remotest peoples! Folk . . . anticipated the coming of message-bearers for the true God almost as knowledgeably as if they had read about them in the morning news!’ (56) Richardson has documented some of these incidents in a book mentioned below. Bracketed numbers indicate relevant pages from that book.


An amazing pony
For countless generations, the Wa people in Burma passed on their ancient tradition that one day a ‘white brother’ would bring them a copy of the book about God that they had lost. In the 1880’s, Pu Chan, one of their tribesmen, persuaded several thousand of his people to abandon headhunting and spirit-appeasement. He said the true God was about to send the long-awaited ‘white brother with a copy of the lost book’ that had been part of their folk-lore from time immemorial. If the brother learnt that the Wa people were doing evil things, he might consider them unworthy of the true God’s book.

One morning Pu Chan readied a Wa pony, and told some of his disciples to follow it. He said that the previous night the true God had told him that at last the white brother was near. God would cause the pony to lead them to him. The pony started walking. Surely it would simply stop at the nearest stream. To the disciples’ amazement it kept going. On and on it went for about 200 miles over mountainous trails and down into the city of Kengtung, then turned into the gate of a mission compound and headed straight for a well. The disciples looked all around. No white man. No book. Hearing sounds in the well, they peered in. From the dry well a white face greeted them. Did he have a book from God? Yes! Before long about 10,000 Wa people had given their lives to Jesus. (87, 102-104)


Dreams and visions
Years before he had heard of missionaries, Adiri, a native in Dutch Guiana (now Suriname, South America) received dreams and visions in which he was convicted of sin and apparently converted. Heaven and hell were revealed to him. Near death because of illness, One appeared to him announcing that he was the mediator between God and man, and telling Adiri to go to missionaries for instruction.

(Source: The Missionary Review of the World, July, 1896: 519-523, referred to in Strong’s Systematic Theology: 844)

You might say, ‘Ah, but missionaries were involved!’ Yes, for two reasons. First, if this had happened centuries before the arrival of missionaries, we would never have heard of the event. In other words, who knows how many times such incidents have been repeated in unrecorded history? Second, would God have let Adiri in ignorance of so many other spiritual truths when missionaries were so close?


The Lisu (China)
In southwestern China several hundred thousand Lisu expected a white man to one day arrive with the book of the true God written in their own language. The amazing thing is that as at that time there had never been a written form of their language. Of course, it happened and they responded. (89, 105)


Saved from drowning
The Camaroons lived in southwestern Africa. Long before the arrival of missionaries, many of them were caught in a storm while fishing. When his canoe capsized, the chief was in a quandary as to whom he should cry for help. Reasoning that the god of the hills could not help, and that the evil spirit would not help, he prayed to the ‘Great Father’ to save him. Immediately his feet touched the beach. He was one of the few in the party who survived. He gathered his people together and recounted the story, concluding, ‘Now let all my people honor the Great Father, and let no one speak a word against him, for he can save us.’ Thereafter he became renowned as a man of peace, making every effort to prevent strife and bloodshed.

The chief’s son related the story to missionary Alfred Saker, saying, ‘Why did you not come sooner? My father thirsted for the knowledge of God.’ (Strong’s Systematic Theology, page 843)

Saker reported this in England in 1879.


User currently offlineRedngold From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 44
Reply 14, posted (10 years 10 months 6 days ago) and read 1801 times:

1. If a person was born mentally ill in some form, and the person kills someone, but they did not know it was wrong because of the disease will they still go to hell? (Thou shall not kill)

There is an accountability factor here. While taken literally "thou shalt not kill" does apply to every human being, God is the only one who knows the content of a person's heart and mind.
This is why many churches won't baptise infants, give communion until a child is able to understand the meaning of the sacrament, and won't perform the sacrament of confirmation until a person has reached a certain age. It is also why the Jewish Bar Mitzvah doesn't take place until the age of 13.
If you read the Left Behind series (which I know, is not the Bible, but is a fictionalized narrative of Biblical ideas) the authors chose to have all children under the age of 12 disappear in the Rapture -- because they had not yet reached the age of accountability.

2. If a person in the most remote country does not know that God exists, so therefore can not believe in a religion, will they go to hell because they do not believe in God? Though they do not know there is a higher being.

Most Christians agree that there are really two ways to get to Heaven:
1. You believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, or
2. You never, ever, in your entire lifetime, had a chance to hear the Gospel.
--> You no longer fall under #2!



Up, up and away!
User currently offlineAnsettAW From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 205 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (10 years 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1781 times:

Aa61hvy, A few years ago I read a book that tackled your second question. It's called Eternity in Their Hearts by a missionary, Don Richardson, who describes how the concept of a supreme God has existed in hundreds of primitive cultures throughout the world for centuries. If I remember correctly, the author suggests that God has set "eternity in the hearts of men..." (from Ecclesiastes in the Bible), and that God has "worked" in the hearts of people from remote corners of the world. Some are presented with the Gospel message, others are not. For those who never hear it, God apparently knows the heart of the individual and whatever decision they would make if they had the opportunity to make it. We can't judge and no one knows for sure. It would be arrogant for anyone to say that there is no "redemption" for these people.


Snap, Krackle, and Pop are thinly veiled emblems for the Trilateral Commission.
User currently offlineTYSGoVols From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 634 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (10 years 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1774 times:

I do not see reading other book books bseides the Bible subtracting from my faith in its inherent word. I see it as receiving another person's view point. I also it as a way to validate science not the other way around or science to discredit it. Try this web site if you honestly don't think the Bible can be scientific.


http://www.answersingenesis.org/

In Christ
Garen B.



Rocky Top You'll Always be home sweet home to me, Good ole' Rocky Top WOOOOO
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3350 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (10 years 10 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1753 times:

1. If a person was born mentally ill in some form, and the person kills someone, but they did not know it was wrong because of the disease will they still go to hell? (Thou shall not kill)

---

No. In order to commit sin (or at least in Roman Catholism), one must be aware that their action is wrong. I don't have my religion book at home, so I can't tell you what the other conditions of sin are.

AAndrew


User currently offlineAC320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 10 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1738 times:

An interesting note:

The Sixth Commandment, in the original Hebrew is a mere two words "Lo tirtzak" which if I remember my Hebrew correctly means

You shall not murder

Interesting choice of words, and you guys know how much how I love words.



User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 10 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1736 times:

Christiananswers.net?

A pathetic website, that uses bad science to the extent to which it implies dinosaurs existed when humans did.


User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (10 years 10 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1729 times:

Both are good questions, ones I've asked myself and ones I'm sure many Christians also ask.

1. If a person was born mentally ill in some form, and the person kills someone, but they did not know it was wrong because of the disease will they still go to hell? (Thou shall not kill)

As we believe that God is a God of Mercy, my personal opinion is that someone who is truly unable to know right from wrong (not just using it as an excuse to avoid punishment) I feel that God will not hold the person accountable for their actions. Just as God does not hold a small child accountable for their sins, (as the child has not yet learned how to distinguish right from wrong) a person who, through no fault of their own, also cannot distinguish right from wrong is not held accountable.

2. If a person in the most remote country does not know that God exists, so therefore can not believe in a religion, will they go to hell because they do not believe in God? Though they do not know there is a higher being.

This one is a little more difficult and one you'll find a lot of varying answers on so I can only give my opinion. First of all, a belief in God is not what is required to go to heaven as even the devil and his demons believe in God. Also, God has instilled in everyone a belief in a higher power even though some choose to ignore it. One must believe in Jesus as the Son of God and believe in him as one's savior. If someone has never heard of Jesus and how to go to heaven, then he cannot be held to the same standard as someone who has. God will judge the person when he dies but will not send him to hell for never having heard about Jesus. What standard does God use? I don't know but believing God to be fair, I'm believe he does not send someone who has never heard of Jesus to hell simply for being born in an area of the world without any contact with the modern world.



"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineTs-ior From Tunisia, joined Oct 2001, 3493 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (10 years 10 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1683 times:


Remark and recognize that the signs of God are every where,and yourself you are a sign of the existence of the Almighty,and then God didn't let any one without giving him the chance to discover him,just think a little and you'll feel his presence...


User currently offlineCtbarnes From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3491 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (10 years 10 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1670 times:

1. No.

2. I doubt it.

Charles, SJ



The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
User currently offlineCsavel From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1376 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (10 years 10 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1657 times:

Ctbarnes, I went to Georgetown and one of the Jesuits there said, "in Catholicism, you are required to believe in hell, but you are not required to believe anyone actually lives there." Loved it.

In my own religion (Judaisim) I know that traditionally suicides couldn't be buried in a Jewish ceremony because they sinned against God by taking their own lives. But Rabbis got around that by saying that the very fact that they committed suicide is ipso facto evidence that they were mentally ill, and thus not responsible for their actions, and thus not sinners.

My feeling is that if God gave humans free will, then she will forgive all of our decisions, good, bad, and indifferent. We should do good and avoid sin because it is right, not because of any future reward.

I also believe that if God is all forgiving, and all merciful, then she forgives us for not believing in her. Ego is a human construct.

Why do I refer to God as she? just to be contrarian, I'm sure that gender does not apply to God.






I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
User currently offlineCtbarnes From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3491 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (10 years 10 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1630 times:

Csavel,

My tastes in hell tend to run more towards Jean Paul Sarte and his book No Exit, where a group of people are condemned to hell, which for them is a mediocre living room. Big grin

Seriously though, you're absolutely right, and I agree with everything you said (Jesuit education notwithstanding)!

Keep smiling!

Charles, SJ




The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
User currently offlineGo4EVA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 25, posted (10 years 10 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1632 times:

I thought this thread had already dried up and was sent to electron heaven... Wow!

God bless,

- Jeff


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