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Urban Sprawl  
User currently offlineKBUF737 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 779 posts, RR: 3
Posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1701 times:

I was looking at maps of urban areas across the US and I was wondering. Just how much farther is it going to go. My examples are Atlanta, Denver, Dallas and LA. Its just sick how every time I fly into Atlanta just houses upon houses are going up spreading further and further out making longer commute times which mean less time with the family. In Denver, before we know it its going to be one giant metropolis from Fort Collins to Colorado Springs, thats nearly half the state. Just a big wall of Haze and Urbanization between the plains and the rockies. Dallas, how far is Dallas/Fort Worth from East to west. somebody said from one part to the other its nearly 70 miles. That is rediculous. This all needs to end. And LA, forget about it. San Diego is practically a suburb of LA by know. Heck. Look at Vegas, how could I forget that in the last 10 years Vegas has doubled its urban area. Sick people sick. Its time we woke up here and started limiting some things. We cant keep doing this forever you know.


The tower? Rapunzel!!!!!!
42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAn-225 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 3950 posts, RR: 40
Reply 1, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1694 times:

It wouldn't be as bad if we had some decent public transportation, and subway. Underground trains are a sign of civilization. Moscow has it. New York has it. San Francisco has it. Why not Denver?

Alex.



Money does not bring you happiness. But it's better to cry in your own private limo than on a cold bus stop.
User currently offlineDLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1681 times:

It wouldn't be as bad if we had some decent public transportation, and subway. Underground trains are a sign of civilization. Moscow has it. New York has it. San Francisco has it. Why not Denver?

Call it poor urban planning. Did you know that Douglas County, south of Denver and part of the "Metro Six" was named by Newsweek as the single worst example of Suburban waste in the history of mankind?

DLKAPA


[Edited 2004-03-04 07:53:41]

User currently offlineSophiemaltese From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2064 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1677 times:

I hate suburbs. Ick.

User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40070 posts, RR: 74
Reply 4, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1672 times:

More like no planning at all.
Predatory capitalist has an appetite to expand, expand and expand. Fickle minded soccer moms like those brand new homes with vaulted ceilings because they look bigger.
Public transit?
That would mean a half-cent sales tax hike and that's communist.
Besides, gasoline will last forever and that 0% financing for that Lexus 4X4 SUV can't be beat.
Images on TV tells us that this is the norm and what your life is supposed to look like.
 Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure


This is the vicious cycle.  Pissed



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40070 posts, RR: 74
Reply 5, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1667 times:

Suburbs
In the school halls
In the shopping malls
Conform or be castout
Suburbs
In the basement bars
In the backs of cars
Be cool or be cast out

Any escape might to help to sooth the unattractive but the suburbs have no charms to sooth the restless dreams of youth.


-Neil Peart (1982)



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDc10guy From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 2685 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1663 times:

There's a darkness on the edge of town, there's a darkness on the edge of town. Superfly. I do wish more cites where like SFO. I think that most city's where at one time. SFO has a soul. Most other city's I've been to in the US don't. I don't know why. The suburbs aren't that bad.


Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
User currently offlineCMK10 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 513 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1655 times:

Look at the Phoenix Metropolitan Area (the fastest growing metro. area in the country). New suburbs seem to spring up out of the desert every day and if you go way out into the country out beyond Apache Junction, there are about six times more people then there were thirty years ago. If the trend continues it will become like suburban New York and a cardboard box on a street corner will fetch $500,000.


"Traveling light is the only way to fly" - Eric Clapton
User currently offlineRoberta From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1651 times:

What are the trains like over in the us. i heard they're pretty bad. there not great here, france is where you wanna go. i hate to say this on an aviation websiate but i think high speed train links (180mph) should be built throughout europe and us and flights less than 2 hours stopped and replaced by trains. short flights and small planes annoy me anyway. i love longer ones and widebodies though.

User currently offlineDc10guy From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 2685 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1651 times:

That's true CMK10, Its all about supply and demand. Now that I live in the valley of the sun I don't want anyone else to more here. But I know they will Just like I did.


Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1633 times:

Where do you suggest we expand then? The middle of Yellowstone Park?

User currently offlinePendrilsaint From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 685 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1627 times:

"Subways are a sign of civilization" Well thats silly...New York's subway system is a freaking, mother loving joke! The commute from the upper west side to midtown or downtown on a rushhour can take just as long as any commuter drive in Atlanta, or Denver. Yes, soccer moms do like houses with vaulted ceilings because they look bigger. Yes, people want a larger backyard so they don't have to feel like someone is always breathing down their neck. When will people understand that some folks like living in cities that are suburban like Phoenix, Atlanta, Denver, or in some cases Boston? If subways are a sign of civilization then I'll take the barbarity of of one of the above cities (save Boston with its crappy subway system) anyday.

User currently offlineNormalSpeed From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1626 times:

"Any escape might to help to sooth the unattractive but the suburbs have no charms to sooth the restless dreams of youth."

Uh Superfly, the word is subdivisions, not suburbs, and you are taking that song completely out of context.

Personally, the so-called "sprawl" doesn't bother me...

"Yes, soccer moms [and NormalSpeed] do like houses with vaulted ceilings because they look (are) bigger. Yes, people want a larger backyard so they don't have to feel like someone is always breathing down their neck."

Amen.

'Speed

P.S. I think soccer moms are hot.

[Edited 2004-03-04 14:42:26]

User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10339 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1626 times:

"Subdivisions
In the high school halls
In the shopping malls
Conform or be cast out

Subdivisions
In the basement bars
In the backs of cars
Be cool or be cast out

Any escape might to help to smooth the unattractive truth,
but the suburbs have no charms to soothe the restless dreams of youth."

I love Rush, but I agree, these lyrics were somewhat taken out of context. I think they have some relevance, but not quite as much as perhaps is intimated above.
~Vik



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineNorth County From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 712 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1575 times:

A couple of sub-issues concerning urban sprawl in the Western US.

1. Illegal immigration.

2. Housing near the employment centers, I.E. San Francisco (and many cities) is more expensive then it needs to be for example.


On number #1: if you stop it you will have less people to house and in turn less of a need to build out farther from the urban center.


On number #2: The reason that housing is more expensive then it needs to be is that you have rent control and a restriction on upward construction. I have read Superfly write about the pending proposals for high rise condos. If you don't build up then you are going to have to build out. Take your choice. You need to allow redevelopment in the Urban areas to include upward building - or the building will continue to spread outward.



Problem is that the groups that are the most upset about urban sprawl are not trying to end illegal immigration and are not allowing present property owners to building up in the Urban centers.

I just want to add that I am in the mortgage business in the Southern California area. My college work was based on the political, social and economic history of the Southwest and Western regions.

Quiz time!

#1, There is one factor that has allowed the vast amount of Urban development in the Southwestern part of the US over the past 50+ years. What is it?


#2, The is one factor, above all the rest, that will limit the population growth of the Southwest region in the future. What is it?







User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1573 times:

#1, There is one factor that has allowed the vast amount of Urban development in the Southwestern part of the US over the past 50+ years. What is it?

Air conditioning


#2, The is one factor, above all the rest, that will limit the population growth of the Southwest region in the future. What is it?

Water



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineNorth County From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 712 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1572 times:



Very good - you are correct!


User currently offlineSR117 From Mexico, joined Jun 2000, 799 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1560 times:

How about higher density housing?

High density doesn't always = ghetto, and european cities are proof of that. Sooner ir later it will become part of a solution.


User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3413 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1539 times:

High density doesn't always = ghetto

Yes it does.


User currently offlineKYIPpilot From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1383 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1538 times:

Care to elaborate, Flight152?


"It starts when you're always afraid; You step out of line, the man come and take you away" -Buffalo Springfield
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 20, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1514 times:

Urban sprawl? Get used to it.

Most estimates have the world population reaching one billion between 1800 and 1850. Most have it reaching two billion between 1900 and 1950. It is 6.3 Billion today.

Plot that on a graph. Start with the human population being more or less flat at about half a billion as long ago as you'd like and graph it. No matter how you plot this the population curve is nearly vertical today. It has more than doubled during my adult life. It will double again two or three more times before I die. That is something like a sixteen-fold increase.

More people are alive on earth today than have died since the beginning of the human species. Put another way, nearly 25% of all the human beings ever born on this planet are still alive today, they are under 21 years of age and live in the third world many in stupefying poverty. The reason is simple math - two beget four, four beget eight, eight to sixteen and so on. We used to have diseases and predators and wars that kept the population in check but those things are hardly a factor anymore except in the world's poorest regions. Our birthrate per couple has not declined and more of our children are living to breeding age.

When things are scarce they have value. When they are common they do not. The blunt truth about us, even the bleeding-heart liberals is that we do not value human life very much.

Now ask yourself how fast food production is increasing.

Ask yourself is it fair that Canada hoards so much of the world's fresh water.
(Just kidding Canada  Smile)

Enjoy your Urban sprawl. The urban and suburban area of Sacramento California expand outward into some of the world's best farmland. They scrape away topsoil and pave and pour concrete where food wanted to grow. That is California's solution. Why, because it is cheaper to build on flat ground. It is an illusion, it is more expensive in the long term (centuries) but cheaper for the guys who want the profits from development right now.

Overpopulation is virtually the only problem the entire world has. And nearly all of our two hundred plus nations see it as their solution, not their problem.

I am going to do my part and die soon. What are you doing about it?
Well, I feel better now.

In the time it took me to write this the population increased by nearly five thousand. (I just reloaded the population clock)




Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineB2707SST From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 1370 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1486 times:

True, population is still growing, but the rate of growth is slowing (now is that the second or third derivative...). Excluding immigration, most developed countries have stable or slightly declining populations. I remember hearing that Russia and Spain are contracting at a somewhat alarming rate. Pat Buchanan likes to get worked up over this.

Very underdeveloped countries have low growth rates, because there's simply not enough food to support a larger population. Wealthy industrialized countries have low birth rates, also leading to stable populations. Developing countries are the exception, because rising incomes lead to larger families but birth rates have not yet declined. It's hoped that as third-world incomes rise, the world population will stabilize or even shrink a little.

Like North County said, urban growth limits must drive up housing prices - that's what happens when supply is fixed and demand rises. Rent control destroys the incentives for new investment in urban housing and creates ghettos. Public housing costs the city huge amounts of money and often deteriorates into slums.

There's no way out once growth is restricted: the laws of supply and demand are about as immutable as gravity. Swedish economist and socialist Assar Lindbeck made the famous statement, "In many cases rent control appears to be the most efficient technique presently known to destroy a city—except for bombing."

The only alternative is allowing new development. For an industrialized country, the US has a relatively low population density (see http://web.hhs.se/personal/suzuki/o-English/po01.html for rankings), so that's where we've tended to go in the past.

Pick your poison.

--B2707SST



Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40070 posts, RR: 74
Reply 22, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1468 times:

NormalSpeed:
Uh Superfly, the word is subdivisions, not suburbs, and you are taking that song completely out of context

I should be ashamed of myself on the RUSH lyric! Embarrassment Embarrassment Embarrassment
I have been a diehard fan for 17 years and I had to sing the “subdivisions” part of Subdivisions in a RUSH cover band I play with from time to time.
The song was not taken out of context. I have an interview of Geddy Lee on MTV with Martha Quinn on Betamax (1982), where he discusses this very issue.
(Gosh I am dating myself)

North County:
The reason that housing is more expensive then it needs to be is that you have rent control and a restriction on upward construction. I have read Superfly write about the pending proposals for high rise condos.

Gavin Newsom’s proposal to Manhattanize San Francisco was soundly defeated 70%.
70% of the voters can’t be wrong. Liberals and Conservative within San Francisco were opposing to this and it lost in every district with San Francisco.
These proposals are on the ballot every election cycle and they are always defeated by 67-72%, which is the breakdown of renters to homeowners within San Francisco.

Without rent control, this entire town would be a rich man’s fairyland.
Whare are those who work at the coffee shops and cleaners going to live?
Rent control works in places like San Francisco and New York. There is no other place to expand. Getting rid of rent control will not make prices drop. It would permit the highest bidder to live here. Gavin Newsom has failed in every attempt to weaken rent control.
In most places, rent control is a bad idea because there would be no incentive to build new housing. Here in San Francisco and New York, the isn’t any place to develop.
Rent control here in San Francisco only applies to buildings build before 1979.
Ironically dozens of older apartments went up in flames on those rare nights when there were no winds blowing here during the dotcom boom.
Of course the fire department never wanted to investigate any of these cases.



Flight152:
You are way off the mark.
Have you seen New York’s Upper East Side of Manhattan? Chelsea?
Have you seen Chicago’s Lincoln Park?
Have you seen San Francisco’s Marina, Laurel Heights, Pacific Heights, Seacliff and Twin Peaks districts?
These are all high density, high value, low crime areas. You can’t find a place in any of these areas for less than 7 figures.



Pendrilsaint:
The commute from the upper west side to midtown or downtown on a rushhour can take just as long as any commuter drive in Atlanta, or Denver. Yes, soccer moms do like houses with vaulted ceilings because they look bigger. Yes, people want a larger backyard so they don't have to feel like someone is always breathing down their neck

Don’t put words in my mouth. In fact, have you seen these tiny lots these suburban track home are being build on? My backyard here in congested San Francisco is larger than these track homes growing overnight out in the burbs.
Subways are a sign of civilization.
It’s not just about the time it takes to get from point A to B. There are many other factors. A train carrying 150 people 30 miles pollutes less than 150 individual cars going the same distance.
Also, do you have any idea how much it cost to park downtown in Manhattan?


B2707SST:
Rent control destroys the incentives for new investment in urban housing and creates ghettos. Public housing costs the city huge amounts of money and often deteriorates into slums.

Yet San Francisco and New York's real estate is more expensive than any other major city in the US.
I guess rent control hasn't deteriorated our cities in to complete slums.  Insane


It’s no secret to anyone here that I love automobiles. I am still a huge proponent of subways for everyday use.
I only put 4,000 miles on my car last year. Cars last longer that way, I pollute less, got a chance to read and got a chance to hook up with some hot babes.  Smile


Now don’t get me wrong folks.
I am all in favor of building new homes and expansion. There just needs to be more planning involved. People here had a fit when I mentioned the “vaulted ceilings and fickle minded soccer moms but totally missed the part about paying for public transportation.
Portland, Oregon has an excellent planning system in place. Instead of public transit following development, development followed public transportation. They laid tracks in areas no one lived and developers build along those routes.
When developers decide to build large-scale communities, there needs to be a public transit system in place to accommodate these new residents.



KROC:
Where do you suggest we expand then? The middle of Yellowstone Park?

No.
Rochester, New York.  Smile







Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29836 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1466 times:

North County:
The reason that housing is more expensive then it needs to be is that you have rent control and a restriction on upward construction. I have read Superfly write about the pending proposals for high rise condos.

Gavin Newsom’s proposal to Manhattanize San Francisco was soundly defeated 70%.
70% of the voters can’t be wrong. Liberals and Conservative within San Francisco were opposing to this and it lost in every district with San Francisco.
These proposals are on the ballot every election cycle and they are always defeated by 67-72%, which is the breakdown of renters to homeowners within San Francisco.

Without rent control, this entire town would be a rich man’s fairyland.
Whare are those who work at the coffee shops and cleaners going to live?
Rent control works in places like San Francisco and New York. There is no other place to expand. Getting rid of rent control will not make prices drop. It would permit the highest bidder to live here. Gavin Newsom has failed in every attempt to weaken rent control.
In most places, rent control is a bad idea because there would be no incentive to build new housing. Here in San Francisco and New York, the isn’t any place to develop.
Rent control here in San Francisco only applies to buildings build before 1979.
Ironically dozens of older apartments went up in flames on those rare nights when there were no winds blowing here during the dotcom boom.
Of course the fire department never wanted to investigate any of these cases.


And this is why you ended up with huge area's of urban slums in the 1970's. The landlords couldn't get any money they put into their properties back, so it was easier to torch them for the insurance money rather then investing in the property.

Trust me, Rent control is a price control and price controls are bad.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40070 posts, RR: 74
Reply 24, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1463 times:

L-188:
But San Francisco is not a slum.
San Fransisco is a shining example of how rent can work.
Ironiclly the worst part of town (Bayshore/Hunters Point) has the highest percent of owner occupied homes.



Bring back the Concorde
25 NormalSpeed : "...I had to sing the “subdivisions” part of Subdivisions in a RUSH cover band I play with from time to time." Superfly, Dude! You play with a Rus
26 Post contains images Superfly : Dude! You play with a Rush cover band? That's sweet, man. Thanks man! I still can't play La Villa Strangiato all the way through. Alex Lifeson's shoes
27 Post contains images Superfly : Suburban sprawl doesn't have to be boring. My favorite developer Joseph Eichler has made some of the most magnificent suburban homes ever. And with a
28 PROSA : Wealthy industrialized countries have low birth rates, also leading to stable populations. Developing countries are the exception, because rising inco
29 Delta767300ER : Urban Sprawl is a fact that we are going to have to get used to. Cities like Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Los Angeles, Phoenix, and Vegas are booming in
30 An-225 : Make cities bigger... but where's the public transportation? Just today I spent 20 minutes driving Vafi88 to school, and the distance was just under 5
31 Post contains images Superfly : An-225: Make sure he gave you gas money! Just kidding.
32 Vafi88 : Hey Hey Hey!!! This underaged school attending person is out of a job!
33 Delta767300ER : I forgot to add my part of public transportation in their. Hopefully Subways, rails/high speed bullett trains and busses will be put in to combat heav
34 Post contains images Superfly : Vafi88: Ok then get him some grass! My friend had a bumper sticker that read; "Ass, Gas or Grass. No one rides for free". Delta767300ER: Hopefully Sub
35 Post contains images An-225 : Another big problem is that people can't drive. If you have a Corvette with some power in it, you shouldn't be doing 55 on Pena on your way to the air
36 VectorVictor : Well, Superfly you I probably don't agree on much, but Joseph Eichler houses are absolute gems.
37 Post contains images Superfly : VectorVictor: I just LOVE Eichler homes! Too bad there are like only 8 in city proper of San Francisco. There are hundreds out in Walnut Creek and Pal
38 Flight152 : However today's energy cost makes these very expensive to keep warm in the winter. That being a good reason why many people build new houses in colder
39 Delta767300ER : Superfly, I like the designs of those houses you posted! An-225, I agree. Nobody driving a Corvette should be driving below the speed limit! -Delta767
40 Post contains images USAFHummer : "Another big problem is that people can't drive. If you have a Corvette with some power in it, you shouldn't be doing 55 on Pena on your way to the ai
41 Post contains images An-225 : Oh yeah, Greg here has a point. Fucking dolts clogging up freeways with those god damn ok, I'll stop now . Still miss the Moscow Subway... Alex.
42 Cba : Suburbs wouldn't be so bad if proper commuter rail lines were built. Expanding a freeway only does so much good. An express train could make it from D
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