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Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You  
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16927 posts, RR: 48
Posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1399 times:

I just heard an excerpt from NPR (yes, NPR) how the Kurdish North is building roads, banks, schools, etc in peace and major Kurdish leaders are in London trying to attract businesses to the area. They've created incentives of free land, no taxes, and speedy processing through the Iraqi bureaucracy. And when was the last time you heard about a major attack in Kurdistan these days? Wow what a concept! You can either choose to blow up construction, aid workers, contractors, or build something! Why is this concept completely lost in Baghdad and the south?

[Edited 2004-06-30 02:23:01]


E pur si muove -Galileo
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1383 times:

Lies, lies, and more lies...! Your too stupid to understand...


signed,
Mikey Moore


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1382 times:

A little misleading, Maverick. With suicide attacks, and other attacks, on Iraqi civilians and U.S. forces every day; with civilians being kidnapped and beheaded, and with a shaky government, hand-picked by George Bush, they're not exaclty a bastion of stability.

They still have a long way to go. The only thing keeping them from Civil War is our troops. And what happens when they go? I hope to God they're strong enough by then, because ,honestly, I fear another Yugoslavia.


User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1368 times:

Always the ray of hope and sunshine...

They may have a long way to go but they have come ten times farther.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16927 posts, RR: 48
Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1362 times:

"A little misleading, Maverick. With suicide attacks, and other attacks, on Iraqi civilians and U.S. forces every day; with civilians being kidnapped and beheaded, and with a shaky government, hand-picked by George Bush"

Not misleading at all...none of that is occurring in the Kurdish North.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineWellHung From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1355 times:

Not misleading at all...none of that is occurring in the Kurdish North.

What's wrong with:

'Kurdish Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You'
'Northern Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You'
'Northern/Kurdish Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You'
'Kurdish North Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You'
'Iraqi Kurds Doing Just Fine, Thank You'

all of which would have all fit into the subject line. Yet with the title you make it seem as if the whole country is fine when, in fact, it is not. Deny it all you like - it is misleading.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16927 posts, RR: 48
Reply 6, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1349 times:

True...but would you have read it then? I never said I didn't learn anything from Michael Moore.

[Edited 2004-06-30 03:06:32]


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineWellHung From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1342 times:

I thought topic names were supposed to reflect what's inside - not be falsified headlines intended to attract interest. Northern Iraq is certainly part of Iraq, but the question as related to you post should be - Is all of Iraq doing just fine?

User currently offlineScottysAir From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1335 times:

Can you anyone need to know when the war is over with Iraq?

User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1320 times:

Is it just me or does this whole power handoff seem a little "off"? Wasn't it the stated objective of the coalition forces to "force" democracy on Iraq? Then why couldn't they hand over power publically as planned?

If they are so afraid of terrorist threats then the job isn't done. If the new ruling head of state is flip-flopping on plunging the country into martial law, it doesn't exactly smack of stability.

The very first act in establishing a democracy shouldn't be shrouded in secrecy. Isn't that a fundamental requirement? And with the country teetering on the brink of civil war, the timing couldn't have been worse. Not to mention the idiotic move of disbanding Iraq's army.

This poor "democracy" won't last 30 days. In some ways it still doesn't exist...


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16228 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1312 times:

Is it just me or does this whole power handoff seem a little "off"?

It's just you Airplay.

Wasn't it the stated objective of the coalition forces to "force" democracy on Iraq?

Nope. The objective was to remove Hussein and the Baath Party to enable the Iraqi's to self-govern.







Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1292 times:

Nope. The objective was to remove Hussein and the Baath Party to enable the Iraqi's to self-govern.

Then our troops should leave, and let them do so.


User currently offlineWellHung From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1285 times:

True...but would you have read it then? I never said I didn't learn anything from Michael Moore.

Interesting you change your post after I respond... Even more interesting that you claim to learn from people you consider pieces of crap. Certainly if you act in the same manner as you claim he does, you could be considered the same?  Big grin

Username: MaverickM11
From United States, joined Apr 2000, 1173 posts, RR: 3
Posted Wed Jun 23 2004 07:15:35 UTC+1 and read 272 times:

I'm not going to beat around the bush; I think Michael Moore is a piece of crap.


http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/583074


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16927 posts, RR: 48
Reply 13, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1283 times:

"Wasn't it the stated objective of the coalition forces to "force" democracy on Iraq? "

"Forcing democracy" on someone is like forcing them to breathe.

"Then our troops should leave, and let them do so."

Oh yeah, they'll all get along fiiiiiiine and play nice without some sort of outside help.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16927 posts, RR: 48
Reply 14, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1281 times:

"Interesting you change your post after I respond... Even more interesting that you claim to learn from people you consider pieces of crap. Certainly if you act in the same manner as you claim he does, you could be considered the same? "

Actually I changed it simultaneously as you were responding, and I learn from everything, even the people I consider most despicable. That makes me enlightened or something... Wink/being sarcastic



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1254 times:

"Wasn't it the stated objective of the coalition forces to "force" democracy on Iraq? "

Forcing democracy" on someone is like forcing them to breathe.

"Then our troops should leave, and let them do so."

Oh yeah, they'll all get along fiiiiiiine and play nice without some sort of outside help.



HAHAHAHAHA……this is a great example of contradiction. If democracy is as simple as breathing, and Iraq needs the US presence to maintain it, then Iraq is in an “iron lung” because it can’t “breathe” on its own.

Democracy, although a valiant goal isn’t always the answer no matter how you spin it. Maybe you can think of other biological functions to compare to the “democracy” they are enjoying in Iraq….


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1241 times:

"Then our troops should leave, and let them do so."

Oh yeah, they'll all get along fiiiiiiine and play nice without some sort of outside help.


Then are we there, Maverick, to permanently keep our troops there? If that's the case, Bush should be thrown out of office. We're not there to control their destiny, and leaving our troops there, ad infinitum, is not an option.

Our troops have to leave, and they well, eventually. We can't control it if they hate each other, but we can blame who will be responsible for unleashing that hatred, because of his pre-emptive action, can't we?

We cannot force Iraq to be a "little America" when they've not had any sense of democracy and freedom. Hell, before our own independence, we had 500 years of democracy forming in the Britian, and, later, the American colonies. We had some training-they don't.

And if you feel that way, then there's no doubt that when our troops do leave, "democracy" will die there, and they will end up like Yugoslavia.


User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1222 times:


We will be in Iraq till at least 2005, or, Iraq want us to leave. After the Gulf war, we were in Saudi Arabia till 2002, we had been conducting patrols to enforce the no fly zones till 2002, so what is a couple of years to stabilize the country of Iraq. We are not forcing Iraq to be a "little America, & the government of Iraq was not handpicked by the United States.

If we were to leave Iraq now, it would turn into one hell of a firefight.

Now, I do agree with you that there has to be an unoffical time limit, but somehow we always get sucked into things, troops in Africa, troops in Eastern Europe, hell, we are still involved in Haiti, a base in Cuba, troops in Korean protecting the DMZ side of South Korea, troops in Germany, you get the drift.




NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1205 times:

Oh well that's all right then - I wonder if the Club Med in Basra is open yet.

What is reported here is nothing new - the Kurdish area of Northern Iraq has always been more stable, and is practically self-governing and has been since Gulf War 1. It is precisely for this reason that Iraq will not hold together - the Kurds will not give up their hard-won sovereignty and return to the fold of greater Iraq, which is and always was an artificial construct of British and French imperialism.

When the Kurds assert their independence (which I reckon they will, especially given the mess that the rest of Iraq is in), it will take all the combined will of the US, Europe and the UN to prevent Turkey from invading to prevent Kurdish independence - if that happens, the whole area is buggered. In fact, either way, its buggered - its a no win situation. If I were the US I'd be saying to the Interim Government "Here's the key to the official Merc, I'm off !" and get all your troops out of there ASAP. Let them sort themselves out, its going to turn into a Shiite theocracy in the south anyway, accept the inevitable and move on.

Re: the government of Iraq was not handpicked by the United States.

I'm pretty sure I don't remember an election - do you ? Of course the US hand-picked them. Not that it will help - democracy has never been a feature in Iraqi / Ottoman / Byzantine / Persian / Babylonian politics, you can't change the habits of 8 millennia. Pessimistic but true.



User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1197 times:

We will be in Iraq till at least 2005, or, Iraq want us to leave. After the Gulf war, we were in Saudi Arabia till 2002..

One big difference, Mike: in '90, the Saudi's, fearing invasion, invited us to stage troops there, in part to protect, and in part to help drive Iraq out of Kuwait. This time, we were uninvited ,unwelcomed guests, after a pre-emptive attack. Big difference.

so what is a couple of years to stabilize the country of Iraq.

Sure, what's another 500 American lives, and few hundred billion dollars that would could use here at home?

We are not forcing Iraq to be a "little America, & the government of Iraq was not handpicked by the United States.

ROTFL. Sure they were. We made sure that they would bow to our wishes, at least until elections can be held, if they're ever held. If you seriously think this "soverign" Iraq is calling the shots, and not Washington, you're deluding yourself, my friend.

Now, I do agree with you that there has to be an unoffical time limit, but somehow we always get sucked into things, troops in Africa, troops in Eastern Europe, hell, we are still involved in Haiti, a base in Cuba, troops in Korean protecting the DMZ side of South Korea, troops in Germany, you get the drift.

Agreed, which is where this Administration failed. They didn't think for a minute past the invasion, and putting Bush on that carrier with "Mission Accomplished" behind him. They had not a freaking clue, in June of '03, what to do with a nation they thought we would be universally welcomed in, and who they thought would not resist our coming. They had no post-war plan, and a bunch of Americans and Iraqi's have paid the ultimate price for that malfesence of duty.


User currently offlineFDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 35
Reply 20, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1182 times:

>>>One big difference, Mike: in '90, the Saudi's, fearing invasion, invited us to stage troops there, in part to protect, and in part to help drive Iraq out of Kuwait. This time, we were uninvited ,unwelcomed guests, after a pre-emptive attack. Big difference.<<<

The basing of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia, regardless of invitation, regardless of welcome guest status was AQ's main reason for striking the US. We were able to pull out of Saudi Arabia with the Iraqi threat gone. Such is the way of strategic policy.



You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1180 times:

You give this President, and his administration, way too much credit. If you believe that was a strategic part of this, you're nuts. What is the diff, if we have troops in one Arab country or another? It's like shifting chess pieces-it doesn't mean squat. We still have large numbers of Americans on Arab soil, and that's one thing AQ doesn't look too kindly on.

In short, if this is a strategic move, it makes no sense whatsoever, becuase, strategically, it did nothing.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13792 posts, RR: 63
Reply 22, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1174 times:

The Kurds in Iraq have been more or less independent since the first gulf war. Saddam and Al Qaeda never had much say in their region anyway.

Jan


User currently offlineFDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 35
Reply 23, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1173 times:

>>>You give this President, and his administration, way too much credit. If you believe that was a strategic part of this, you're nuts. What is the diff, if we have troops in one Arab country or another? It's like shifting chess pieces-it doesn't mean squat. We still have large numbers of Americans on Arab soil, and that's one thing AQ doesn't look too kindly on.

In short, if this is a strategic move, it makes no sense whatsoever, becuase, strategically, it did nothing.
<<<

The monarchy was under pressure from the populice against housing the infidel in Moslem holy land. On the other hand, the Kingdom felt it was under threat from Saddam. What to do? Eliminate the threat and move out thus quelling the threat. Strategically, sound.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2984547.stm

[Edited 2004-06-30 19:25:50]


You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16927 posts, RR: 48
Reply 24, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1150 times:

"If democracy is as simple as breathing"

I never said democracy is as simple as breathing; I said forcing democracy on someone is like forcing someone to breath. If you asked a random group of people whether they want democracy or tyranny, I'm willing to bet they all choose democracy. The execution is a whole 'nuther ballgame, and that is where we run into problems.

"- the Kurds will not give up their hard-won sovereignty and return to the fold of greater Iraq"

Can you really blame them? With neighbours like they have, who needs enemies? It's a bit like Switzerland having to become part of a greater country with the Sudan. The greater question here is why are the Kurds capable of creating a nation, whereas just about everyone else (regardless of whether they're one group or many) can't?



E pur si muove -Galileo
25 Alpha 1 : What to do? Eliminate the threat and move out thus quelling the threat. Strategically, sound. Wrong. Al Qaeda won't care WHICH Islamic/Arab nation we
26 FDXmech : Wrong. Our troops in Saudi Arabia was a growing point of contention for their government. An unpredictable Iraq was their proverbial rock and hard pla
27 Post contains links Airplay : I was watching the CBS news this morning during coverage of the Saddam trial. They showed a video clip whose audio was removed (censored) by the Ameri
28 MaverickM11 : "First of all, just how much of a democracy has the US bestowed on Iraq, when they continue to censor what should be a very public and transparent tri
29 Alpha 1 : His supporters are next in line to be strung up. I didn't know Indianguy was in Baghdad these days.
30 ScottysAir : I don't know about anything with Iraq and can you please comfirmed with Iraq? When the war will be over with them?
31 Post contains images KROC : And Alpha 1 loads up a massive roundhouse right and delievers it to an outclassed 'Roy'. Nighty-night.
32 Airplay : His supporters are next in line to be strung up. Unfortunately, a great deal of his supporters are out and about in Iraq taking pot-shots at your boys
33 MaverickM11 : "Unfortunately, a great deal of his supporters are out and about in Iraq taking pot-shots at your boys. Don't you think hanging their main man might a
34 Gigneil : We are not forcing Iraq to be a "little America, & the government of Iraq was not handpicked by the United States. And where do you think they came fr
35 Airlinelover : Scotty, according to George Bush, the war is over. But there is still much to do.. But in reality, it still is a warlike area, and NO ONE knows when i
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