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Philippines Surrender To Terrorists  
User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 23
Posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1317 times:

BAGHDAD, Iraq — Pleading for the life of a truck driver held hostage in Iraq, Philippine Undersecretary of Foreign Affairs Rafael Seguis (search) said the country would withdraw its troops "as soon as possible."

Seguis' appeal to the group holding Angelo dela Cruz (search) was aired on Arab-language television network Al-Jazeera on Tuesday. But he did not elaborate on whether the Philippines would move up their scheduled Aug. 20 pullout from Iraq.

It is unclear if dela Cruz is still alive. The militant group, the Iraqi Islamic Army-Khaled bin Al-Waleed Corps (search), had initially said they would kill the hostage by Sunday if the Philippines did not agree to pull out its 51-member peacekeeping force one month earlier than planned. Earlier on Monday, the Philippines announced that the kidnappers had extended their deadline to 3 p.m. EDT Tuesday.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,125451,00.html

Wow, the Philippines decide to pull a Spain. Didn't even take anything on the magnitude of multiple bombings and they've decided to run away with their tails tucked between their legs.

The sad thing is the guy is probably already dead but the Philippines have once again proven that a nation that doesn't have the will to fight will be forced to surrender at the alter of radical Islam. Expect the Al-Qaeda linked MILF terrorists to launch attacks in the coming months now that they know what tactics to use and that the government doesn't have the guts to fight back.


"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8726 posts, RR: 43
Reply 1, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1295 times:

Good for them.

And yes, I'm just saying this to piss you off, B757300.  Big grin



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14074 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1288 times:

No, Gloria Macpagal Arroyo finaly refused to let Bush continue to pull her country into a war based on lies.
Also, there has been trouble in the Philippines concerning the US forces there, who acted against agreements.
Acc. to the constirtution of the Philippines, foreign forces are not allowed to act on their own in this country and this is what the American "advisers" did.

GMA is in charge of a country with a sizable Muslim population, and most trouble with them stems from the time of American colonialism (big fruit companies Dole and Del Monte getting control of whole provinces on the island of Mindenao, which is predominantly inhabited by Muslims) and the US sponsored dictatorship of Ferdinand Marcos, who disowned Muslims to settle christian Filipinos in formerly Muslim regions.

She finaly realised that she is responsible to the population of the Philippines and not the American president.

Jan


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5727 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1288 times:

Appeasment did not work in 1938 with Hitler and sure as hell won't work today with those creatures from AQ.

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14074 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1283 times:

Turbolet,

This doesn´t mean you´ve got to stick supporting Bush´s lies forever.
Also, I understand your feelings, but in my opinion, even if Chamberlain really trusted Hitler, it gained Britain about one year more time to go through a crash rearmament program. In 1938 the British forces were, due to neglect during the 20´s and early 30´s definitely not able to takle the German Army.

Jan


User currently offlineSolarix From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1261 times:

She finaly realised that she is responsible to the population of the Philippines and not the American president.

Then why didn't she pull the troops out last week? Why did Manila wait until being blackmailed by terrorists before acting on something that is suppose to help the Philippine people?


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14074 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1258 times:

Because she was only reinstated as president last week.

Jan


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5727 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1257 times:

MD11,
there are studies that suggest the same thing for Wehrmacht - difference in combat preparedness between 8/1938 and 9/1939 (i.e. Williamson Murray - The War of 1938), Germany having to fight on two fronts from the very beginning - of course, if France chose to honor its Czech-French ally treaty, clique within Wehrmacht's top-command opposing war in 1938, "Devil's Pact" Ribbentrop-Molotov was still to be signed.
The bottom line is: we should have ignored the Munich treaty, fight and most likely lose like the Poles did, but not having to deal with the Munich-trauma ever since. But there would have to be someone totally different sitting at Hradcany than Benes - a guy who was permitted to fail big time as a president twice in ten years - how sad!

Anyway, I don't want to "litter" this thread with irrelevant topic.

Come on, I am no fan of Dubya either, but this is not about Bush, is it?  Insane Saddam is gone and there's one dictator less - that's a good thing - whether GWB lied or not to make it happen is now irrelevant in Iraq, however its more than relevant for the US itself. The future of Iraq is at stake now and I suppose the objective is to make it as stable, secular and predictable as possible - some sort of local modification of democracy being a welcome bonus.
The presence of the foreign troops is to prevent civil war waged by those presumably tolerant and peace-loving Sunnis and Shiite and make sure the country doesn't get hijacked by extremists like those having fun beheading defenseless civilians.
The Filipino troops are not involved in any combat, are they? This is about a government of a sovereign country letting a bunch of cowards from bleakly defined Al-Qaida to define its foreign policy, cowards who don't have the guts to even not show their face. Spain set the trend, Philippines followed, who's next...

[Edited 2004-07-13 04:45:07]

User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17661 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1242 times:

"No, Gloria Macpagal Arroyo finaly refused to let Bush continue to pull her country into a war based on lies.
"

What are these lies of which you speak?

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/594222/



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineVafi88 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3116 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1241 times:

Nice to see a *coalition* country actually caring about its people and soldiers...




I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14074 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1235 times:

The thing about the Philippines is that the whole involvement in Iraq is highly controversial at home, same as the stationing of American "advisers" in Mindenao (esp. concerning the US as a former colonial power). Some Filipino militaries have been quoted that they would like to have the American equipment to give them an edge over the Abu Sayaff terrorists, but rather not the American soldiers.
Also, at the moment there is a controversy goping on between the Filipino veteran´s organisation and the American government concerning the pensions for the Filipino soldiers who fought in the US Army during WW2, when the Philippines was still an American colony.
The American government is still being accused in the Philippines of meddling too much in Filipino internal affairs.

Jan


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5727 posts, RR: 19
Reply 11, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1229 times:

MD11,
but what is the relevance of your, otherwise very welcomed insight into Philippine politics, to the fact that a legitimate government lets a group of paramilitaries dictate its foreign policy?
If this tactics works for AQ or some other Islamist extremists- next time they will kidnap someone else and demand something involving those Abu Sayaff terrorists or Philippines, how will she deal with that? She fights terrorists on her own soil and surrenders to them abroad - a little schizophrenic approach, isn't it?

L410

[Edited 2004-07-13 04:54:51]

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14074 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1207 times:

I think it is more the feeling of being involved in a war which is not their war. They have enough trouble going on at home (corrupt former president "Erap" Estrada left a whole heap of manure to be cleaned up, like undoing land reforms, which brough the communist NPA guerilla out again, which was almost gone. Estrada also acted against agreements made between his predecessor Ramos and various moderate Muslim organisations, forcing them into the corner of the radicals, which BTW, get financed by Saudi Arabia).
And don´t forget, those Al Qaeda terrorists could only get access to Iraq through the bad handling of the situation by the US. It looks also as if the Filipino government has been bullied into joining the "coalition of the willing" by threats concerning development aid and visa to the US. The country is highly depending on the Filipinos working overseas, who each year sent billions of dollar back to their homeland. Many of them work in the United States ansd in the Middle East. If theay would loose their work permits the whole country would suffer.

I expect that there will be a major UN intervention going on in Iraq within the next few years. I hope that under a robust and credible UN leadership most European countries and countries from Asia (incl. the Philippines) will work to bring peace to Iraq.

Jan

BTW, my personal interest in the Philippines comes from the fact that both my first wife and my current girlfriend are coming from there. My girlfriend is coming from a Christian province in Mindenao, about 50 km from the Muslim area. My daughter out of my first marriage has a Filipino citizenship beside the German one.


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 1200 times:

Pulling out troops due to a major terror attack, as happened in Spain, I can live with.

Pulling out because ONE PERSON is kidnapped. That is sheer cowardice.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14074 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 1191 times:

No, the point is that the majority of the Filipinos was against the involvement in Iraq from the beginning. Now with the results of the investigation showing the intelligence f+ckup AND the kidnapping the government has no reason anymore to stay in Iraq.

Jan


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 1189 times:

Fine, but there's more honorable, more sincere ways to pull out. Doing so in the face of ONE hostage sends completely the wrong signal. It's not like a major attack. And I think it shows a lack of fortitude.

User currently offlineJamesag96 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2095 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 1183 times:

So one person isn't worth it, but 270 dead is?

Isn't that a slippery slope? I would think that any concession due to a terror attack sends the wrong message...regardless of casualties.



Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1159 times:

Phillipines is mostly CATHOLIC not muslim, you have to understand that MD11Engenier

User currently offlineQIguy24 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1142 times:

Those phillipino troops werent even combat soldiers were they? I thought they were only there fonr humanitary reasons. But those coward terrorists obviosly doesn't want the best for Iraq.

User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (10 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1141 times:

Well, There goes another one of your coalition.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Before you know it, the US will be in Iraq alone with its long time puppy the UK. I thought Rumsfeld once said something as: 'we have built a strong coalition around us, we do not need the support of countries like France and Germany, that's just old Europe. The world has chanced, I look more to new Europe, to the East.'

Off course back then, those few countries, all joining out of opportunistic reasons and against the will of their population, hoped facts on the ground would prove them right, but now even Tony Blair admitted those stockpiles of WMDs will never be found, so where's the imminent danger? Where's the reason for this war in the first place? Therefore many governments of coalition nations get nervous as they feel they will be kicked out of office by their people (at least that's what we do with liars in Europe... we'll have to see what Americans do) so I think basically any pretext whatsoever is good to get out asap and be able to say to Washington: 'Hey, we still support you, but you see, we just have to leave you here, we can no longer ignore the will of our people at home...'

Expect Bulgaria, Rumania, and some other European counties which are still officially on your list to pull out in the coming months too.... You better call some more troops, Mr Bush, because soon no other country is going to fight that war of yours anymore.

[Edited 2004-07-13 11:10:47]

User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5727 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (10 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1126 times:

Sabenapilot,
is doing what the terrorists tell you that "no longer ignore the will of our people at home..." of yours?
I'd say it's a road straight to hell!


User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (10 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1125 times:

I say the only way to avoid embarrassing situations like these, when a country is forced to let criminals behead one or more of its nationals, simply because withdrawing its troops would be widely seen as 'giving in' (like South Korea had to do last month), is to withdraw IMMEDIATELY and UNILATERALY.

I strongly feel Italy, Poland, and other countries lucky enough not to have any hostages in Iraq right now, should benefit from the freedom to act and pull out immediately, just like the Spanish have done! Glad to see at least one government has the brains and guts to make the correct analysis: This in not a just war; it is not even our war. Let those who still feel this war is just fight it alone!


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5727 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (10 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1119 times:

Just like the Spanish have done it very much the same way like the Philippines intend to. Remember that letter from AQ? "no more attacks on Spanish troops as long as their government does whatever we tell them" Things like that only give more legitimacy to AQ, because then it looks like they're running the show in Iraq.
Maybe the Polish and Italians feel different about Iraq? Why shloud they pull-out? Because someone in "Brussels" thinks it would fit the EU foreign policy?


[Edited 2004-07-13 12:09:12]

User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (10 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1111 times:

The rights and wrongs of going into Iraq seem to me to be beside the point in terms of this situation. Equally, the belief as to whether the Philippines should have sent troops in at all is also beside the point.

I'm sure everyone, regardless of what the believe about Iraq is appalled at the hostage taking that has so far occurred. Equally, the reaction of the Filipino government in pulling out in response to the terrorist demands sets an appalling precedent, and ensures that it will continue. To those who crow about another coalition member withdrawing, perhaps taking a step back might be in order. Should the UN become more involved in Iraq, which is what many opponents of the war wish for, these actions will continue. We will see hostage taking, and demands that the constituent country withdraw their personnel from any UN operation, as well as any US/UK one.

These people do not greatly care what authority it is, they merely want them all out. Put aside your views on whether the coalition should or should not have gone in in the first place, we are dealing with current reality, not what might have been. In order for Iraq to have a chance, security, whether in the shape of the UN, NATO or just the US/UK and others, must be maintained.

This response merely ensures that the terrorists/insurgents/freedom fighters (delete according to your viewpoint) are now completely convinced that their tactics work. They will continue to take foreign hostages for precisely that reason. The actions of the Philippines has made life harder for every other nation involved, and for the UN itself. That cannot be a good thing.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21486 posts, RR: 53
Reply 24, posted (10 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1105 times:

The idiocy is in full swing again...  Insane

Aznar lost the elections because he was caught in the attempt to manipulate the elections with the terrorist attack, not because of the attack itself!

Some of you are still too lazy to bother with the complicated and uncomfortable facts when it suits your cheap prejudices, apparently. It basically invalidates everything else you say...

[Edited 2004-07-13 12:26:30]

25 Sabenapilot : So you are saying we have to do the exact opposite of what AQ asks us, just to show them we are serious? Ever considered what kind of countries those
26 L410Turbolet : Klaus, it's not about Aznar or Zapatero winning or losing elections, but about the fact that they pulled out of Iraq as a consequence of the Madrid bo
27 Klaus : L410Turbolet: it's not about Aznar or Zapatero winning or losing elections, but about the fact that they pulled out of Iraq as a consequence of the Ma
28 Gman94 : They pulled out of Iraq after kicking out a lying and manipulating government that had dragged them into the invasion against overwhelming popular opi
29 Canoecarrier : Rumsfeld once said something as: 'we have built a strong coalition around us, we do not need the support of countries like France and Germany, that's
30 Klaus : Gman94: No they kicked out a government based on the actions of terrorists. The polls a few days before the Madrid bombings still had Aznars party com
31 Ryanb741 : What I can't understand is why in all of the hostage cases no rescue attempt has been made. Surely the best message to send terrorists is sending in t
32 Klaus : Where exactly?
33 L410Turbolet : Klaus, I don't understand what prejudice against Spaniards you are talking about? The only thing I'm saying is that Spain's pulling out of Iraq was co
34 Ryanb741 : Surely the intelligence agencies can work it out.
35 Klaus : If they could, they would intervene, I have no doubts about that. Quite similar to nobody being able to find Osama, it appears.
36 Klaus : L410Turbolet: I don't understand what prejudice against Spaniards you are talking about? The only thing I'm saying is that Spain's pulling out of Iraq
37 JGPH1A : Re: Surely the intelligence agencies can work it out. Yeah - they've done SUCH a good job with intelligence on Iraq so far - spot on every time !
38 L410Turbolet : Exactly that. It´s a conveniently simple prejudice contradicted by evidence. Klaus, I'd say it's just an opinion. Your opinion is different and I thi
39 Gman94 : I don't see how Aznar tried to manipulate the Madrid terrorist attacks to his advantage. If a terrorist attack happened in the UK my first instinct wo
40 Captoveur : Thanks for making anyone not from the middle east an even bigger target. Signed, Every non-middle easterner in the area
41 Post contains images Sabenapilot : L410Turbolet, I don't see any contradiction in what Klaus said! It is a perfect analysis of the election result in Spain. Aznar might have managed to
42 Qantas744 : The greatest terrorist threat in the UK is from AQ not Irish Republicans and it has been like that since 9/11 but even more so since the current Iraq
43 L410Turbolet : Sabena, my objection is not much against the fact that they pulled out of Iraq, but against the timing and the fact they did it as a consequence of th
44 Post contains links Klaus : L410Turbolet: I'd say it's just an opinion. Your opinion is different and I think you have every right to believe whatever you want to. It's a good id
45 L410Turbolet : Klaus, since neither me nor you (am I wrong?) have English as native language I think its rather tricky to argue about meaning of words. In my underst
46 Post contains links Schoenorama : L410Turbolet: "So did Aznar lose because of the bombings or because of that "overwhelming popular opinion" against Spain's involment in Iraq? " Aznar
47 Alpha 1 : Isn't that a slippery slope? I would think that any concession due to a terror attack sends the wrong message...regardless of casualties. Even a milli
48 L410Turbolet : Just to set the record straight, Schoenorama - I NEVER called the SPANISH PEOPLE cowards but cowardly the actions of Zapatero's GOVERNMENT. And we ten
49 MD11Engineer : Luisca, 90% Catholic, 5% Muslim, rest protestant, Bhuddist, Animist. This still makes it about half a million Muslims in their country, not immigrants
50 Schoenorama : Of course we tend to differentiate between nations and their government, but when it is clear that the Spanish population did not want their troops se
51 MD11Engineer : Latest news from the Philippines is that the senate and ex president Fidel Ramos are against an immideate withdrawal. It looks as if the Pinoy troops
52 Post contains images Sabenapilot : Alpha1, there's nothing cowardly in making sure these AQ militants are not given any more chances to make advantage of hostage takings in Iraq and sca
53 Alpha 1 : there's nothing cowardly in making sure these AQ militants are not given any more chances to make advantage of hostage takings in Iraq and scare milli
54 MD11Engineer : BTW, in cases of kidnappings in the Philippines, by law all accounts of the relatives are imideately frozen to prevent the family paying ransom. Then
55 Post contains images Sabenapilot : alpha1, Whahahah! Do you actually believe for a second the USSR didn't bother to win the hearts of the Afghan people by building some infrastructure j
56 MD11Engineer : At least Kabul was a fairly modern city under the Soviets. In other provinces they just faced the same as the Us and the UN troops are facing now: Feu
57 FDXmech : >>>Whahahah! Do you actually believe for a second the USSR didn't bother to win the hearts of the Afghan people by building some infrastructure just t
58 Sabenapilot : FDXMech, You must have misunderstood that latest post of mine, because I did not mean to give ANY MORE OR LESS positive attribute to the USSR's Afghan
59 L.1011 : "Peace in our time!" Signed, Nevill....oh wait.....Gloria Macpagal Arroyo
60 MD11Engineer : L1011, No, concentrate on the war in their own country, at the same time trying to win back moderate Muslims, who got turned away after Estrada f*cked
61 Donder10 : Why did the Us not help to finish the business in Afghanistan? More to the point,why isn't the EU especially Germany helping to finish the business in
62 MD11Engineer : There is at least one brigade of German troops in Afghanistan, probably more, based in Kabul and Kunduz. Jan
63 Zak : "More to the point,why isn't the EU especially Germany helping to finish the business in Afghanistan?" think about your statement. currently, the eu d
64 L.1011 : Afghanistan is an example of the kind of common sense foreign policy, when your side of the Atlantic, our side, and the world's other prosperous free
65 Post contains images Galaxy5 : currently, the eu does alot more to stabilize and get the terror out of afghanistan then the u.s.. the fact that the country that suffered from a terr
66 MD11Engineer : Last time I checked Germany had about 2500 soldiers directly involved with ISAF, plus all the logistics and Luftwaffe personal taking care of the supp
67 Post contains images Solarix : Well, There goes another one of your coalition. You seem quite happy to see us fail. The Filipinos were there to merely help the Iraqis. Do you enjoy
68 Donder10 : Last time I checked Germany had about 2500 soldiers directly involved with ISAF, plus all the logistics and Luftwaffe personal taking care of the supp
69 L-188 : am very glad the Filipino hostages' life will be spared. But I have to agree with Alpha 1 that pulling your entire group out of Iraq because of one pe
70 L410Turbolet : Do you want something from the government of Philippines? Ingredients: 3 people - at least one speaking Arabic 1 citizen of Philippines (either a true
71 Post contains links L-188 : BTW: It doesn't look like the Filipino's are the only ones caving into hostage demands, civilian companies are too. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,293
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