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French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?  
User currently offlineJamesag96 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2095 posts, RR: 3
Posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1638 times:

Have you all seen this:

http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040705092601.7br3lleq.html

First question...is this real?
Second question...is she for real?

"She said that France has a mobile, flexible and highly-motivated military and that it was the second or third best in the world."

Interesting read...if it real.



Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1629 times:

Makes sense in terms of closer Franco-German defense cooperation. France has nukes (for better or worse) and Germany does not - the only other EU member with nuclear weapons is the UK. If European defense cooperation is to proceed, clearly nuclear forces have to be included somewhere in the equation, although I would be surprised if any suggestion is made that these forces are moved out of national control. But to have these forces (while still subject to national control) available for use in the defense of the greater European whole, makes a lot of sense.

She's right about Europe needing to spend more on defense, though - its not reasonable to rely on the US so heavily, since the Cold War threat has now largely evaporated.


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1628 times:

If true, what's the problem? That was U.S. policy, and, to some extent, still is. We touted our "nuclear umbrealla" for decades, and used it as a threat to keep the USSR from attack us or Western Europe.

It is interesting, but it isn't anything that hasn't been done in the past.


User currently offlineJamesag96 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2095 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1625 times:

What I thought interesting was her comment on defense spending in the EU, and her statment that France's military was the 2nd or 3rd best in the world.




Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1616 times:

I don't have facts or figures to hand, but in terms of equipment and training and the ability to project force around the globe, I would imagine France is right up there, probably 3rd after the US and UK. France currently has military operations ongoing in Afghanistan, Haiti and Cote d'Ivoire, possible in the DRC as well (not sure) and other UN operations. I think the naval side is not so strong, the one aircraft carrier "Charles De Gaulle" was obsolete before she was even commissioned.

User currently offlineBen From Switzerland, joined Aug 1999, 1391 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1617 times:

We touted our "nuclear umbrealla" for decades, and used it as a threat to keep the USSR from attack us or Western Europe.

Yeah yeah, ok that is true but based on the absolutely incorrect assumption that 'they' are evil and want to attack us, and 'we' are friendly good people.

'They' used their nuclear umbrella for decades as a threat to stop you from attacking the USSR and Eastern Europe. It works both ways.


User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1616 times:

Unlikely the French military is in the top 3 - but then again I don't know how much they have been spending recently. BTW, I estimate 10 minutes before the 1st 'Surrender Monkeys' post. Big grin


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineGman94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 1239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1610 times:

During the 60th anniversary D-Day celebrations, a defence analyst on BBC or Sky (I can't remember for sure), said that today only the US, British and French had an effective combined military with the ability to carry out large scale operations. I would say that all three militaries are mobile, flexible and motivated which seems to be required in today's world.


British Airways - The Way To Fly
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1608 times:

If, say, Turkey invades Greece, or Russia invades Hungary, do you really believe that France will be willing to use its nukes to defend another EU state? Or will they wring their hands and ask for negotiations at the UN?

Charles


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1602 times:

Ryanb741 - if France is not no.3, who would you say is ? In terms of equipment, mobility and motivation, Russia and China, while numerically obviously HUGELY superior, probably are not a match - who else is there ? Israel ? Well equipped and motivated, but not vast force projection possiblities and quite a small navy.

I'd say the estimate of no.3 for France is about right.


User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1591 times:

I would say that Russia or China would be number three IMHO.


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1580 times:

In terms of the ability to generally kick butt (which, after all, is what you need from an army !), you're probably right. Having a million tanks does tend to lend a certain credibility !  Smile/happy/getting dizzy - but in terms of modern equipment and mobility, France has Russia and China both beat.

User currently offlineYanksn4 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1404 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1574 times:

Yeah yeah, ok that is true but based on the absolutely incorrect assumption that 'they' are evil and want to attack us, and 'we' are friendly good people.

So killing everyone who disagrees with you , putting people in prison for many years for saying one word, killing its own citizens, and arming groups that want to spread it is not evil?



2013 Airports: EWR, JFK, LGA, LIS, AGP, DEN, GIG, RGN, BKK, LHR, FRA, LAX, SYD, PER, MEL, MCO, MIA, PEK, IAH
User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1560 times:

Well according to figures provided to the UN by the UK and USA, the most powerful militaries are;

1. Iraq (Loads of WMD) Big grin
2. North Korea (tonnes and tonnes of nukes)  Big grin
3. Syria (Smuggled WMDs from Iraq).  Big grin

In all reality I maintain it is;

1. USA
2. Russia
3. China or UK or France depending on how you measure the stats



I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineBen From Switzerland, joined Aug 1999, 1391 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1557 times:

So killing everyone who disagrees with you , putting people in prison for many years for saying one word, killing its own citizens, and arming groups that want to spread it is not evil?

I dont have the time or energy to get into this fight but you are 1. Wrong and 2. Being a hypocrite.

I hope someone here (with the energy) will demolish you for those remarks.


User currently offlineGman94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 1239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1551 times:

A military is not measured in sheer numbers but on how they effectively use what's available. Russia and China do have huge armies compared to the French and the UK, but I doubt if they would be able to be deployed, used effectively and be motivated to fight as well as the French and British militaries.


British Airways - The Way To Fly
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 16, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1550 times:

As a matter of interest, what form do French nuclear weapons take?

Are they bombs or missiles? If missiles, what range do they have?



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1536 times:

Yanksn4 - clearly you studied at the "Bullwinkle Moose" school of international politics. Alas, the world is not that black and white. The US was not always Dudley Do-Right, and the Soviet Union was not always Boris and Natasha, with big round bombs marked "BOMB".

- Killing their own citizens. The US has the highest rate of judicial execution in the world. And don't even get me started on gun control or lack thereof.

- Putting people in prison unjustly. Two words. Camp Delta. Until the US tries those people in a duly convened civilian court of law, and convicts them, the US cannot claim any moral high ground about the rule of law.

- Arming groups etc etc. Contras, Taliban, UNITA - the list of US-sponsored "liberation groups" is long and very very unenlightening. Two can (and did) play at that game.

Nobody said life under communism was all beer and skittles - far from it. But all the stuff you were talking about, it wasn't evil - it was just politics. Hard to tell the difference, sometimes.


User currently offlineGOTbound From Sweden, joined Oct 2006, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1535 times:

And the French complains about Uncle W... threaten to use Nukes on rouge country's, well Uncle W didn't nuke neither Afghanistan or Iraq.

Anglo-French-German co-operation, to much history involved to make it work for real. A strong EU (incl. France as PART of it, not the self proclaimed super-power of it) with NATO (all EU non NATO members included) merged in to the Union and a stronger co-operation with USA both military and financial is what the "free-world" need to succeed.

rgs.GOTbound


User currently offlineGman94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 1239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1535 times:





French Nuclear Arsenal

Strategic Delivery Systems

Strategic Nuclear Delivery Vehicle
Year Deployed
Maximum Range (km)
Launcher Total
Warhead
Warhead Yield
Notes

SLBM
M-4 1985 4,000 48 6 x MRV, TN-70/72 150 KT On 4 L'Inflexible SSBNs
M-45 1996 5,300 16 6 x MIRV, TN-75 100 KT On 1 Le Triomphant SSBN
Air
Mirage 2000N 1988 1,205 45 1 ASMP 300 KT -
Super Etendard 1980 850 24 1 ASMP 300 KT Carrier-based

Summary of French Nuclear Arsenal:

The French nuclear arsenal, largely a legacy of De Gaulle's insistance on French strategic independence, is the third largest in the world. Until 1996, it was deployed on a triad mirroring those of Russia and the United States. However, in February 1996, President Chirac announced his intention to eliminate the land-based deterrent, destroying the Hades and SSBS S3D missiles.

Yet in tandem with this reduction, France is undertaking a modernization of its sea-based deterrent force, with the first of a new SSBN class, the Le Triomphant, along with a new SLBM, the M-45. The controversial nuclear testing at Mururoa Atoll in 1995-96 was reportedly done to perfect warhead design. The French are even pressing forward with an advanced SLBM design, the M-51, complete with a stealthy, manuevering warhead called the TN-76.

The means of air delivery will remain potent, though the last French nuclear gravity bombs have been retired. The Mirage 2000N and carrier-based Super Etendard fighter-bombers are available to deliver short-range nuclear ASMP missiles. A follow-on to the current ASMP missile, dubbed the ASMP+ is under development and is slated to enter service in 2007. The new French nuclear role aircraft, the Rafale D, should be ready then as well.

The French arsenal at the moment is rife with contradictions -- while the reductions are sweeping and encouraging, the modernization program is widespread. The French would probably not engage in multilateral arms control until the U.S. and Russia came down to approximately the same warhead level.

Strategic Nuclear Weapons: 482

Nonstrategic Nuclear Weapons: 0

Total Nuclear Weapons: 482

Taken from:

http://www.cdi.org/nuclear/database/nukestab.html

Not sure how up to date it is though.




British Airways - The Way To Fly
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1532 times:

Banco,

French nukes are on the La Redoubtable class of SSBNs. Highly capable Multi-target ICBMs, with a global reach.

In terms of military strength its:

1) US
2) China
3) India
4) UK
5) Russia
6) Spain
7) Israel
8) Pakistan
9) Germany
10) Greece

This is based on Air Force, Army, Navy, Special Forces, Power Projection, and manpower basis - and is my best guess. Its a little skewed as Israel has a very powerful army and air force but aside from i think three corvettes, no Navy to speak of, whereas Spain has a kick ass navy, and a kick ass air force but not so much of a powerful army. I'd also contend that India will eclipse China in the next ten years.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 21, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1515 times:

You've missed out France completely there, Chris! Big grin


She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1508 times:

I think he did it on purpose  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 21
Reply 23, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1505 times:

In terms of global reach France is still strong.It has permanent troop bases in Gabon,Tchad,Congo-Brazzaville in Africa alone.Anybody know whether they have a base in Nouvelle Caledonie or French Guiana?

User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1498 times:

Donder10 - I expect France has some kind of military presence in all the DOM/TOM's - if only to annoy the locals.

25 MD11Engineer : Germany´s military is still mostly a home defense force (legacy of cold war and restrictions at the end of WW2). This means we´ve got lots of tanks,
26 Delta767300ER : I would think Turkey is more powerful than Greece? -Delta767300ER
27 Jwenting : France will indeed have the capability to tell any nation wanting to quit the EU that they can nuke them unless they abandon their foolish ideas that
28 JGPH1A : Starting with you, Jwenting - what are your coodinates ?
29 Post contains images Banco : France will indeed have the capability to tell any nation wanting to quit the EU that they can nuke them unless they abandon their foolish ideas that
30 JGPH1A : Don't worry, Banco - he wasn't joking. Jwenting is our resident Dutch ultra-nationalist, who wants to bring back the Feudal System and the Spanish Inq
31 Post contains images 777236ER : putting people in prison for many years for saying one word, killing its own citizens, and arming groups that want to spread it is not evil? Guantanam
32 JeffM : And let's not forget how well those Frenchy's can march backward! Must take lots of practice. One whole aircraft carrier? I'm glad I don't live anywhe
33 GDB : France is, like it or not, very proud of it's nuclear forces. Partly because the US did not approve. It caused France's fracture from NATO in the mid
34 Dl021 : France ahs the equivelant of 4 land divisions and a air force that is large only by european standards. They cannot project power, and are limited by
35 MD11Engineer : Inmy opinion the ability to project power, as used by the US since the emnd of the cold war, is mostly used to bully other people, a succession of old
36 GDB : Usual stuff from JeffM, failed, un-funny, wannabe shock jock style. Maybe a French lady once turned him down and/or was once disparaging about him. Th
37 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Yeah yeah, ok that is true but based on the absolutely incorrect assumption that 'they' are evil and want to attack us, and 'we' are friendly good peo
38 Pelican : Yeah yeah, ok that is true but based on the absolutely incorrect assumption that 'they' are evil and want to attack us, and 'we' are friendly good peo
39 L410Turbolet : At the moment there are only five nations with modern, highly sophisticated nuclear weapons: USA, Russia, France, UK and Israel. Pelican, I only hope
40 Pelican : You can't loose nukes for a long time. At least when the first terrorist uses one you know were it is. Their other WMS's aren't kept better (actually
41 MD11Engineer : The other thing is that most nukes need regular maintenance, or they will just pop. For example the trigger neutron source usualy contains tritium or
42 JeffM : "The French were good enough to send strike aircraft and ground forces to Afghanistan, separate from the peacekeeping mission." How nice of them. I st
43 GDB : Maybe if the US had not relied on those unreliable Northern Alliance thugs, who's loyalty changes rapidly, for cash or land, think on that when consid
44 Post contains links MD11Engineer : Concerning the British and American relationship with De Gaulle during WW2 check this link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/allies_at_war_01.sh
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