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Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us  
User currently offlineGarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5391 posts, RR: 52
Posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2057 times:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/jamieson/181978_robert14.html

Read this and prepare to be outraged.


South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGo Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2041 times:

The main point is this from the report:

"Leigh Winchell, a senior official for the Department of Homeland Security, paints a painful truth: "We have to respond to calls -- that's the day and age we live in. What would the public reaction be if we didn't follow through?"

Yet, authorities should have an obligation to use their training and common sense to assess a situation. They should be able to quickly determine a student taking class photos from a terrorist. They should be able to do their job without resorting to intimidating swagger that leaves a grown man in tears."




It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
User currently offlineGarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5391 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2034 times:

The part that got me is that there were plenty of other people taking pictures. Why, pray tell, were they not questioned as well? Terrorists come in all colors, not just brown, after all.


South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineGo Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2032 times:

McVeigh was white as he not as was the 'shoe bomber' richard reid. You cant pick terrorists out based on skin colour.


It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
User currently offlineLHMark From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 7255 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2032 times:

The story as it is written would deserve peoples' outrage, but I wonder if it's been sensationalized a bit. It's an op/ed piece rather than a news report, so the writer's agenda is expected to come through.

The guy wasn't detained, and the piece makes no mention of longer-term ramifications stemming from this event. I just question how traumatizing the whole thing actually was.




"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
User currently offlineB747forlife From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 392 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2030 times:

I'm sorry, but it comes down to profiling, not anything else. Sept. 11 was done by Middle Eastern males. Terrorism in general throughout the world (at least the fundamentalist Muslim kind) is perpetuated by Middle Eastern males. Its a fact of life, and while its not pretty, it is true.

Runaway fear? Give me a break.

-Nick


User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2027 times:

It's no big deal just because it happened to poor brown skinned Ian.... Those of us that photograph the airliners that make this site what it is experience this quite a bit. I am far from being "brown skinned" and routinely get stopped and checked. Sometimes from the same officer. I'll admit it can be annoying, and I'll agree the officers could be more tactful at times, they really are just doing their job. They are the ones who will "catch hell" if something ever does happen and they were too lazy to check someone out.

You can always file a complaint.....


User currently offlineL.1011 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 2209 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2024 times:

This is indeed an outrage, and is why we need to make sure the people at Homeland Security will do their job properly.

User currently offlineJamesag96 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2095 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2024 times:

Prepare to be outraged? For what?

If I am asked for my I.D. by a uniformed cop showing a badge you know what I do? I freakin show it to him.

If I see what I think is suspicious activity from somone around a bridge you know what I do? I call the authorities.

What is truly sad and depressing is that the world has changed and now I, we, have to be more observing of the world around us.

Sucks that he had to go through that, but how do you "quickly determine a student taking calss photos from a terrorist?"



Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1996 times:

Like others have said, outraged FOR WHAT?

So the guy was questioned by intimidating officers as to what he was doing on a few occasions.



This happens to a lot of people all the time, including a number of white American spotters who contribute to this site.

Besides that fact, if they really are profiling, I don't have a problem with it at all.

Like Dennis Miller once said something like,

"I'm very proud of our nation and the improvements on security at airports, however, when the airport screeners must refuse to tell a difference between grandma with a cane and sweaty Abul with a ticking briefcase, I see a problem in that."



-NWA742


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1974 times:

I see the United States of America, which I used to admire for it´s idea of freedom, slowly turning into a police state with more and more powwer going to the executive. What are you guys scared of?
Come here to Europe, take pictures of bridges, buildings, railway stations, airports, nobody is going to stop you.

Jan


User currently offlineJamesag96 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2095 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1964 times:

I don't remember 9/11 happening in Europe. Perhaps with more observance 3/11 could have been prevented.

It sucks, and it is sad, but things have changed and we have to deal with it.



Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1951 times:

It sucks, and it is sad, but things have changed and we have to deal with it.

Indeed, the Americans have changed into a state of paranoia. The terrorists got you exactly where they wanted to get you: in scare.

The problem is that you guys don't realize that.

I don't remember 9/11 happening in Europe.

Declare a war also on some other countries in the ME-region, based on lies, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some more terror attacks in the US.

Bush is creating terrorism, not stopping it (and the figures of the past year seem to prove that).


User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1940 times:

Indeed, the Americans have changed into a state of paranoia. The terrorists got you exactly where they wanted to get you: in scare.

Oh come on Sabena, think about it. Just because we have more strict security and law enforcement doesn't mean that we, as a people, are paranoid. It's simply a necessary result of the horrible attacks against us.

Americans are not people who hide away from threats such as terrorism. We are NOT paranoid. I actually find it funny that you think you're in a position to judge us the way you just did.



-NWA742


User currently offlineGo Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1940 times:

"Come here to Europe, take pictures of bridges, buildings, railway stations, airports, nobody is going to stop you."

Except in greece, a member of the EU where 11 british nationals were jailed for taking photos of planes. They were plane spotters!



It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1928 times:

Apparently they were taking pictures of military planes on a military airfield (though I´m not sure about the later), and were arrested for espionage. I know plenty of US and Germany military installations around here were big signs on the fence tell that taking pictures is forbidden. This doesn´t apply to CIVILIAN installations though.

Sidenote: A few years ago (pre 9/11), when I was still working in SNN, Ireland, an Irish colleague told me a funny story about Galway airport. Apparently they had an airshow and two USAF F-15s came over for a visit. The American commander though didn´t want to have people taking pictures too closely of the planes, so he insisted that the planes should be parked on a remote parking spot close to the airport fence, with a hedgerow and fields on the other side. Only thing he didn´t know was that this spot, once you crawled through the hedge up to the fence, was the favourite spot for the Irish spotters, and they had the planes parked not even 20 yards away from them. Big grin

Jan


User currently offlineJamesag96 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2095 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1920 times:

"Bush is creating terrorism, not stopping it (and the figures of the past year seem to prove that). "

Great commentary on world events, and proof of your grasp of history. I don't know where you have been for the last 20 years but this didn't "appear" out of thin air when Bush took office.



Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1909 times:

Great commentary on world events, and proof of your grasp of history. I don't know where you have been for the last 20 years but this didn't "appear" out of thin air when Bush took office.

I have studied enough history in the past years to know what I'm talking about. And I'm not talking about secondary school...

It's a disagreement in opinion: you find that Bush is doing a good job for terror, I find that he is doing a bad job. You have your arguments pro, I have my arguments contra.

@NWA742: come to the EU, and you will see that we even don't talk about terrorism. We have been confronted with terrorism for so many years, that it became part of life. What happened in the US is cruel indeed, but when you want to react (and the US HAS to take measures), take those measures based on your brains, and not on your emotions.


User currently offlineJamesag96 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2095 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days ago) and read 1880 times:

I didn't say I thought Bush was doing a good job...I said he isn't "creating" terrorism, it was around way before Mr. Bush took office.


Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
User currently offlineGalaxy5 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2034 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1859 times:

He tried to explain he was a photo student who had done nothing wrong and shouldn't have to show his ID. One of the men, Ian says, erupted: "See this badge! This is a federal badge! I'm with homeland security!"

Intimidating tactics are one thing. A presumption that Ian -- who says he tried to be cooperative while not forfeiting his rights -- was guilty of something sinister is another.


Lesson #1 dont be a smartass when a federal officer asks for some ID, no you dont have a constitutional right to not be identified. Had he done what was asked the situation could have quickly been quelled.

If you look at Ian's smooth, light-brown complexion you could jump to the conclusion that he is vaguely Middle Eastern looking or Latin, maybe even Muslim.

Put a camera in his hands and place him near federal property such as the locks and Ian transforms into, well, what else? A potential terrorist.



Lesson #2, you can thank the middle eastern individuals who flew 4 Aircraft to their doom, and killed approx 3000 people. Face facts it was middle easterners who did it, its middle easterners who commit most of the terror these days, and if you look like a middle easterner life is gonna be different for you just as it is for everyone nowadays.




"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
User currently offlineDl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 20, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1856 times:
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I see the United States of America, which I used to admire for it´s idea of freedom, slowly turning into a police state with more and more powwer going to the executive. What are you guys scared of?
Come here to Europe, take pictures of bridges, buildings, railway stations, airports, nobody is going to stop you.


md11engineer hey, are you really going to tell me that Western Europe is freer than the US? You have not spent enough time here to make that judgement. Either that or you are unwilling to face the truth. Western Europe is where the cops and paramilitary gendarmes put down the riots and walk their beats with automatic weapons. Europe is where ham radio operators were more restricted than anywhere else. Europe is where the airport cops walk around with submachine guns as a matter of course. Europe was where the Aerospatiale offices behind my grandmothers apartment were bombed and no people wanted to give the terrorists their prisoners back.
What is who scared of?

@NWA742: come to the EU, and you will see that we even don't talk about terrorism. We have been confronted with terrorism for so many years, that it became part of life. What happened in the US is cruel indeed, but when you want to react (and the US HAS to take measures), take those measures based on your brains, and not on your emotions.

Sabena690 Right! Well I have probably spent more of my life in your country than you have in mine, and I will tell you that what you said is part of the problem. Europeans have become used to terrorism and have accepted it. You feel that it is like an unruly (mal eleve) child...manageable and as long as the damage is kept to a minimum not worth getting excited about. Well we feel differently. We feel that we should be able to go to a ballgame or to the metro and not have to worry about car bombs or kidnapping. We think that if we are challenged by terrorists that we should NOT appease them and allow them to think that their method of persuasion is acceptable.

Is Bush doing a good job? Well how many people were happy with Roosevelt after the first two years of WW2? About half of the voters and very few europeans.. sounds familiar?



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineFDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 34
Reply 21, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1837 times:

>>>I see the United States of America, which I used to admire for it´s idea of freedom, slowly turning into a police state with more and more powwer going to the executive. What are you guys scared of?
Come here to Europe, take pictures of bridges, buildings, railway stations, airports, nobody is going to stop you.
<<<

Have you ever heard of French anti-terror judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3031640.stm

A small snippet follows

Besides accusations of heavy-handedness and abuse of preventive detention, critics accuse Mr Bruguiere and his colleagues of not giving defendants a fair chance.

Examining judges are supposed to keep an open mind during their investigations, but according to Mr Baudouin, French anti-terror judges systematically side with the prosecution.

"They prepare extremely long, complicated questions, provide the answers themselves, and then ask - what do you say about this?" he says. "There is no real dialogue with suspects."

Such criticisms, however, are confined to France's small human rights community.

They are occasionally mentioned by left-leaning newspapers like Le Monde, but fail to have an impact with the population at large.

For the overwhelming majority of French people and politicians, Mr Bruguiere is a hero.

And in this post-11 September world, they feel that an erosion of civil liberties is a small price to pay for the sense of increased security that comes with having a powerful "sheriff" around.


This judge is great.

Jan, get real. This guy is just another crybaby, I'm not losing any sleep because this mans "inner child" was violated.



You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineGarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5391 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1831 times:


Lesson #2, you can thank the middle eastern individuals who flew 4 Aircraft to their doom, and killed approx 3000 people. Face facts it was middle easterners who did it, its middle easterners who commit most of the terror these days, and if you look like a middle easterner life is gonna be different for you just as it is for everyone nowadays.


Great - so when are we going to start profiling white males who approach federal buildings? Last I checked, Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols weren't very Middle Eastern.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineFDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 34
Reply 23, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1826 times:

>>>Great - so when are we going to start profiling white males who approach federal buildings? Last I checked, Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols weren't very Middle Eastern.<<<

You're onto something!!! The politically correct strategy in fighting terrorism.



You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 34
Reply 24, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1822 times:

The plane spotters infringed on clearly marked interdictions around a military airport (incidentally also used by civilian traffic).
If one cannot understand the meaning of a big red cross on a big camera, sorry for him.
Tough we know they did not spy, still Greek law governs this country, not our interpretation of it or its relevance.

Sabena690 don't you let yourself drift off course. Bush has not created terrorism, but his decisions led to stimulating it. There is an interesting interview of Hans Blix running on BBC for the moment (in "hard talk")

DI021 Europe freer ? freer of fear you mean ?
We have head our share of terrorism a very long time before the US of A.
Since that time yes, police and paramilitary are carrying automatic weapons in and around every "sensitive" place. We have had more than two decades to get use to it and everyone less than 35-40 do not even realize that we have also been through a very similar process.
RAF in Germany, AD in France, BR in Italy, pro-Palestinian groups, etc...that's now history.

Concerning ham radio frequency and power restrictions in Europe, kindly note there was something called a cold war here and there are 3 dozen countries contained in the same area as the US of A.


25 Captoveur : Anyone else here remember when racial profiling was called something else: Effective police work. Say you are a police officer in a predominantly whit
26 777236ER : I fail to see what right the police has to 'ask' why you're anywhere. If you're not comitting a crime the police should leave you alone. If they ask t
27 Galaxy5 : I fail to see what right the police has to 'ask' why you're anywhere. If you're not comitting a crime the police should leave you alone. If they ask t
28 Jamesag96 : "Great - so when are we going to start profiling white males who approach federal buildings? Last I checked, Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols weren't ver
29 777236ER : Yeah thats really smart, let them arrest you first and then let them take your ID, wow that makes so much sense, are you sure your not a rocket scient
30 Jamesag96 : "If they don't have a reason, I open a lawsuit for wrongful arrest." Something for nothing eh...sounds about right from you. Or, you could just pony u
31 777236ER : Something for nothing eh...sounds about right from you. Or, you could just pony up the ID and end the whole thing quickly. Why should I? It's not the
32 Nancy : I guess I'm more suspicious, but if I were an officer would ask people sitting in a car at 3 am or clustered at the end of a runway holding something
33 Iakobos : 777236ER Are you positive a citizen in the UK can deny showing his ID when asked by a (regular) policeman ? If this is the case, you are the only coun
34 777236ER : Iakobos, we don't have national ID, hence it's impossible for police to ask for ID! Police have the right to stop and search, based on 'reasonable gro
35 Iakobos : no identity card ? no driver licence ? ...hum, suspicious...
36 777236ER : We have drivers' licences, but not everyone can drive. It's not an ID card. What's so 'suspicious'? What's the point in ID cards?
37 Jamesag96 : This article discussed one guy... This thread isn't in that forum, it is here, and you and Garnet are making erroneous and irresponsible comments to w
38 777236ER : Explain to me what business it is of the police what anyone is doing taking photos of planes, and why 'ID' would help?
39 Iakobos : ...even carrying false ID is not a punishable offence in the UK... ok, I surrender ! Though, may I assume the police has some PC's and a kind of datab
40 Captoveur : The point of my example was sort of missed. It doesn't matter what color the people are, it is probably a good idea for the police to TALK to them reg
41 777236ER : Oh and you won't technically be arrested.. just detained.. which they can do for a fair amount of time, legally, if they suspect you of something. The
42 Captoveur : They can caution you here, but they still need to have reasonable evidence to suspect you of something. If you think the world follows the letter of t
43 Banco : I don't quite know why you're giving 777236ER such a hard time on this. what he says is correct. The police have to have reasonable cause here before
44 Captoveur : I also know that if the police want to make your life difficult they really can, and be within the law. Also, the police are not just going to go arou
45 Banco : Well,this is where I think you're misunderstanding the point. It isn't 777236ER being unreasonably contrary about this; I suspect a hell of a lot of t
46 VectorVictor : Nothing like a good quote or two (as repetitive as they might seem having been posted in these forum a time or two before) They that can give up essen
47 MD11Engineer : Quotation by Martin Niemöller, submarine commander in WW! and later pastor of a protestant church in Berlin Germany, served time in a Nazi concentrat
48 Garnetpalmetto : I understand the arguments being put out by some, but here's what enrages me. The federal officials questioned Spiers because he was taking photograph
49 777236ER : I wouldn't throw a hissy fit at any policeman asking to see 'my ID' (whatever that is given we don't have a national ID card). I would politely refuse
50 GDB : In WW2, there was an ID card, it was supposed to go with the end of the war, but didn't. Until in 1953 a policemen asked a law abiding man to produce
51 Jamesag96 : While the posted quote is apropos for the most part, it doesn't address what is happening today. "...but what made them choose ONE photographer out of
52 SSTjumbo : Ian Spiers is ... a terrorist? I hate to break this to you folks, but if Ian did show an ID, there wouldn't have been a reason to write the article in
53 777236ER : I mean little old while ladies, and Senators, didn't hijack planes on the 11th yet they get hassled at airports No, Saudis hijacked planes on the 11th
54 Post contains images Garnetpalmetto : Probably because he looked like the assholes that have been targeting us for over 20 years Hmm..these two individuals look nothing like "the assholes
55 Banco : SSTjumbo, there's a big difference between being asked to provide ID for the purposes of upholding the law, i.e. buying cigarettes or beer, and being
56 Jamesag96 : "No, Saudis hijacked planes on the 11th. Explains why we attacked Afghanistan." I apologize...I mistook you for being intelligent enough not to make a
57 777236ER : An incorrect statement. What is profiling if not discriminating based on skin colour?
58 Garnetpalmetto : James, while you play the part of idiot rather well, it doesn't work in this case. You said: Probably because he looked like the assholes that have be
59 StarAC17 : Proof that the terrorists are winning this war. Wasn't their an incident at a Staples a while back where a mother and her preteen son we're reported f
60 SSTjumbo : This phrase, or variants of it, is used to justify every single repressive act that a government may take. The same argument is used by every tinpot d
61 Yhmfan : On August 10, 1988, President Ronald Reagan signed the Civil Liberties Act of 1988. The Act was passed by Congress to provide a Presidential apology a
62 Banco : If I was walking down an alley at 12:00 midnight and a cop asked me for ID and asked me what I was doing, I'd show my ID and tell him the truth, I was
63 Post contains images SSTjumbo : No, it isn't a difficult thing to do, but that isn't the point. It is a fundamental freedom that the police do not have the right to stop you and forc
64 MD11Engineer : Unfortunately most continental European countries still have those ID card laws and laws that demand that you have to register yourself with the local
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