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This Is Scary  
User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2650 times:

I hope I'm not posting about something that was already talked about. If so, mods, please delete this thread.

I wish it is what it's supposed to be: an undisciplined music band. If not, we are looking at a new catastrophe right in the eyes...

http://www.womenswallstreet.com/WWS/article_landing.aspx?titleid=1&articleid=711

There was a follow-up on that story in today's NY Times. It really looks like a terrorist dry run.


Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
128 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2618 times:

As we sat waiting for the plane to finish boarding, we noticed another large group of Middle Eastern men boarding. The first man wore a dark suit and sunglasses. He sat in first class in seat 1A, the seat second-closest to the cockpit door. The other seven men walked into the coach cabin. As "aware" Americans, my husband and I exchanged glances, and then continued to get comfortable. I noticed some of the other passengers paying attention to the situation as well. As boarding continued, we watched as, one by one, most of the Middle Eastern men made eye contact with each other. They continued to look at each other and nod, as if they were all in agreement about something. I could tell that my husband was beginning to feel "anxious."

Simple paranoia. Should all people looking like they're 'from the Middle-East' be banned from sitting near the flightdeck?! God forbid people who look like they're 'from the Middle-East' look at each other! TERRORISTS!

The man in the yellow T-shirt got out of his seat and went to the lavatory at the front of coach -- taking his full McDonald's bag with him. When he came out of the lavatory he still had the McDonald's bag, but it was now almost empty. He walked down the aisle to the back of the plane, still holding the bag. When he passed two of the men sitting mid-cabin, he gave a thumbs-up sign. When he returned to his seat, he no longer had the McDonald's bag.

Someone looking like they're 'from the Middle-East' eating McDonald's?! Must be a terrorist!

Then another man from the group stood up and took something from his carry-on in the overhead bin. It was about a foot long and was rolled in cloth. He headed toward the back of the cabin with the object. Five minutes later, several more of the Middle Eastern men began using the forward lavatory consecutively. In the back, several of the men stood up and used the back lavatory consecutively as well.

So now people with the right skin colour to be from the Middle-East can't go to the loo without being regarded as suspicious? A new low.

For the next hour, the men congregated in groups of two and three at the back of the plane for varying periods of time

Something I've always done with friends on long flights. It's called talking, not plotting a terrorist attack. Then again, I have the wrong skin colour to be a terrorist.

Meanwhile, in the first class cabin, just a foot or so from the cockpit door, the man with the dark suit - still wearing sunglasses - was also standing

Not only is it suspicious for this person with darker-than-normal skin to be sat near the flightdeck he also had the audacity to STAND near the flightdeck! The air marshall should have taken his Allah-lovin' ass out right then!

Not one of the flight crew members suggested that any of these men take their seats.

Why should they sit down? Because they have the wrong skin colour?

I threw out my friendliest "remember-me-we-had-a-nice-exchange-just-a-short-time-ago" smile. The man did not smile back. His face did not move. In fact, the cold, defiant look he gave me sent shivers down my spine.

That settles it. When a man with darker-than-normal skin doesn't give you a "remember-me-we-had-a-nice-exchange-just-a-short-time-ago" (!) smile, he MUST be a terrorist.

My husband immediately walked to the first class section to talk with the flight attendant. "I might be overreacting, but I've been watching some really suspicious things..." Before he could finish his statement, the flight attendant pulled him into the galley. In a quiet voice she explained that they were all concerned about what was going on. The captain was aware. The flight attendants were passing notes to each other. She said that there were people on board "higher up than you and me watching the men." My husband returned to his seat and relayed this information to me. He was feeling slightly better. I was feeling much worse. We were now two hours into a four-and-a-half hour flight.

Mmm, smells like bullshit! So the crew, flight crew and presumably people 'with higher authority' all felt concerned enough to be passing secret notes to each other, yet didn't divert the flight?

After seeing 14 Middle Eastern men board separately (six together, eight individually) and then act as a group, watching their unusual glances, observing their bizarre bathroom activities, watching them congregate in small groups, knowing that the flight attendants and the pilots were seriously concerned

Or reality: people with darker-skin boarded as a group (or 'friends' to use the white term), looked at each other, went to the toilet and talked to each other. My God.

Before I'm labeled a racial profiler or -- worse yet -- a racist, let me add this. A month ago I traveled to India to research a magazine article I was writing. My husband and I flew on a jumbo jet carrying more than 300 Hindu and Muslim men and women on board. We traveled throughout the country and stayed in a Muslim village 10 miles outside Pakistan. I never once felt fearful. I never once felt unsafe. I never once had the feeling that anyone wanted to hurt me. This time was different.

Nonsense. Nothing that these people with darker-than-normal skin did was suspicious. If a white person had done these things, she wouldn't have thought twice. Then again, who actually thinks this happened? The crew were terrified, yet didn't divert the flight? How would the cabin crew know there were marshalls 'all around' them?

Simply saying 'I'm not racist' doesn't make it so.

Suddenly, seven of the men stood up -- in unison -- and walked to the front and back lavatories. One by one, they went into the two lavatories, each spending about four minutes inside

TERRORISTS!!!!! Oh wait, this was just after the plane started the descent, just before the seat belt light went on. Maybe they just wanted a piss? No, course not! TERRORISTS!!!

The rest of the article is sheer nonsense, based on her idiotic paranoia and absolute racism. A dark-coloured man reading from a small book is automatically deemed a terrorist in her eyes. 'Arabs' talking to each other are terrorists in her eyes. Even someone who doesn't SMILE at her is a terrorist!

What a ridiculous article.


User currently offlineBen From Switzerland, joined Aug 1999, 1391 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2611 times:

The only thing I find scary is that 777236ER has a higher "terrorists" to "words" ratio than G W Bush.

User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2563 times:

Suddenly, seven of the men stood up -- in unison -- and walked to the front and back lavatories. One by one, they went into the two lavatories, each spending about four minutes inside

TERRORISTS!!!!! Oh wait, this was just after the plane started the descent, just before the seat belt light went on. Maybe they just wanted a piss? No, course not! TERRORISTS!!!

Wait, the author wrote, before:
The fasten seat belt light came on and I could see downtown Los Angeles...
So the guys stood up AFTER the seat belt light came on to go to the lavs; this is VERY odd. I mean, I saw pax being shout at by FAs because they simply stood up to grab a book in the overhead bin when the seat belt light was on. Why didn't the FAs say anything here? Were they scared to death, or have they been informed by the air marshall to do nothing?

If I wanted to read this article with a bit of suspicion, it is like these men wanted to provoke a reaction on the part of the air marshals. And apparently it didn't work.

But yes, indeed, there is a bit of racism in this article. As illustrated by this line:
Since the FBI issued a warning to the airline industry to be wary of groups of five men on a plane who might be trying to build bombs in the bathroom, shouldn't a group of 14 Middle Eastern men be screened before boarding a flight?

Why Middle Eastern men only?



Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineYanksn4 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1404 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2544 times:

I saw this story on Scarborough Country last night, but just was too busy packing this morning to post it on here. Anyway, I am glad that there are passengers out there that are actually keeping an eye and ear open for anything suspicious. Even if they were wrong in thinking that these people were terrorist, you can not blame them for being suspicious of these men who get up out of their seats while the plane is landing. I mean please don't call them racist just because they kept themselves on guard.


2013 Airports: EWR, JFK, LGA, LIS, AGP, DEN, GIG, RGN, BKK, LHR, FRA, LAX, SYD, PER, MEL, MCO, MIA, PEK, IAH
User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2530 times:

777236ER, I don't know what you read, but the way the author descibed the behavior of these men, it sounds incredibly suspicious.


"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2512 times:

777236ER, before you blame people of being racist who start panicing when they just see a group of ME men, you should better watch your words and what you say about people you don't know. Your assumptions base on a much weaker fundament than the fear the woman and other people on this very flight felt.


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2494 times:

Jetservice, in 777236ER's eyes this is only paranoia on the account of some ignorant American. Can't say that I'm surpised.


In reality, it is very suspicious behavior. If I was on board an aircraft that had a large group of middle-eastern males behaving like the ones she described, I would be suspicious as well. If there is a large group of people, white, black, or brown, who are "secretly" communicating with each other to avoid alerting any crew on board, that is SUSPICIOUS behavior. And no 777236ER, it's not simply because of their skin color, despite the fact that that race does have a strong and undeniable history of being involved in terrorism.

777236ER, this is not a story of paranoia, it's a story of suspicious behavior that occured on a flight, regardless of the skin color of the men. You're just focusing on that one thing to make the lady sound racist.



Anyways, I'm happy that the crew on board were professional and responsible in handling the situation. The flight attendants did not make a scene to stir anything up, and the Air Marshal(s) on board were ready in case they tried anything.




-NWA742


User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2486 times:

NWA742, of course it was the suspicious behavior. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE doing that would raise red flags to anyone paying attention. But since they were Arabs, 777236ER can't bring himself to admit that. He needs to stop treating people differently based on their race.


"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2473 times:

But since they were Arabs, 777236ER can't bring himself to admit that. He needs to stop treating people differently based on their race.

So true. It's funny that 777236ER seems so against any kind of racism, yet he treats Americans quite differently than anybody else.



-NWA742


User currently offlineSchoenorama From Spain, joined Apr 2001, 2440 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2473 times:

I'm afraid I have to agree with 777236ER here. The fact that these men looked like Arabs is an important factor which contributed the writer (and apparently the rest of the whole crew) to become suspicious. In other words, had they had a more Western look, these people probably would not have worried so much. That is racism, whether one likes it or not.

I believe these people were simply preparing their prayers and they probably performed their prayers in the bathrooms. Also, and against what many people might believe, Muslim in general are very hygenic and many wash themselves several time a day, even when aboard a plane.




Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
User currently offlineDelayedagain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2461 times:

Let's hope that at the worst it was group behaving irresponsibly. The alternative just makes me shiver.

tell us, 777236ER, read the report again thoroughly and tell us honestly: if you had been on that flight, wouldn't you have felt just the teensiest bit apprehensive? Fine, on a site like this to prove how much more cool, suave and liberal you are...but go on, tell us the truth.

That much activity out of seats on what is still a pretty short flight? A trip to the john, fine! As a group? In line?

You'd have been bricking it like the rest of us.

And can't you at least agree that the actions of the suspects in question is deplorable? Let's say they were just being irresponsible. They know the mood across the world right now - did they think they'd get their kicks by deliberately acting suspicious? Kind of makes things harder for others of middle-eastern origin when travelling, don't you think?

Like walking alone down a dark road and there is a woman walking along...you keep well back, or cross to the other side etc etc...just to give out those signals (as far as you can) that there's no threat. Obviously, 777 is the kind of man who would walk 3 feet behind her. Not doing anything illegal....no history of any wrongdoing...but no common-bloody-sense!



User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2449 times:

In other words, had they had a more Western look, these people probably would not have worried so much

I wonder how the hell you could possibly know that. Amazing!



"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2441 times:

The fact that these men looked like Arabs is an important factor which contributed the writer (and apparently the rest of the whole crew) to become suspicious.

Even if it was a factor, it was very small. So the writer noticed a large group of middle eastern men on her flight, big damn deal. Our nation was attacked by groups of middle eastern men using 4 of our airliners, so excuse the hell out of her for noticing them at an airport and on an aircraft.

Also, if you'll read what she said rather than jumping to conclusions, she didn't get really suspicious until she noticed the mens' behavior on board.

That is racism, whether one likes it or not.

More like profiling, which a lot of people have no problem with, for many good reasons.

And how do you know what aroused the crew members' suspicions?



-NWA742

[Edited 2004-07-20 18:37:11]

User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8770 posts, RR: 42
Reply 14, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2425 times:

It'd be much less futile to bash each other over this story if it was confirmed to be true. Fishy quotes from the story:

"The next day, I began searching online for news about the incident. There was nothing."

Translation: Even if you don't find anything anywhere, it is still true because I say it.


"I asked a friend who is a local news correspondent if there were any arrests at LAX that day. There weren't."

Translation: No info on the arrests (There must have been some!!) is available because it's all one big cover-up by the TSA, FAA, DHS etc. etc. I say it so buy it.


"I called Northwest Airlines' customer service. They said write a letter. I wrote a letter, then followed up with a call to their public relations department. They said they were aware of the situation (sorry that happened!) but legally they have 30 days to reply."

Maybe NWA didn't want to reply because they feared she would twist their words on their mouths for an even "better" story? Or maybe they just didn't want to put up with this BS?


Gee, why do you folks buy everything with the word "terrorist" in it hook, line and sinker? Are you so afraid ("Be very afraid!) of these nutjobs that you see them everywhere? Look at it, besides 9/11 not one succesful terrorist attack has happened inside the US, and only one more has happened in a Spain, a former member of the "Coalition of the Persuaded Willing", and it was not related to air travel. So chill out people, you're more likely to be killed by lightning strike than by a terrorist.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineKC7MMI From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 854 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2399 times:

What a very interesting article. I too would be a little concerned if I was on that flight.

That settles it. When a man with darker-than-normal skin doesn't give you a "remember-me-we-had-a-nice-exchange-just-a-short-time-ago" (!) smile, he MUST be a terrorist.

777236ER takes things out of context.
I'm no expert but this is a change in behavior (which isn't normal, obviously) and mixed with the fact that you have 14 middle eastern people doing suspicious activities (of course you can say "what if they were white?"...but remember, 9/11 happened because of 19 middle eastern people) it's either very coincidental or they were all up to no-good. Even though they didn't bomb the plane, it sure looks as though they were testing the crew and the FAM's.



User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2388 times:

I don't know whether the story is true or not. But if something like that happened on one of my flights I would be alarmed, too.

Look at it, besides 9/11 not one successful terrorist attack has happened inside the US, and only one more has happened in a Spain

What about Bali, Djerba, Istanbul and some attacks that could be stopped before it was to late?
Sure these attacks weren't in the US of A and not air travel related (exception: Reid) but they show that there is a threat.

pelican




User currently offlineDiamond From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3279 posts, RR: 63
Reply 17, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2375 times:

This topic was opened in the Civil Aiviation forum 4 days ago:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1654841/


Whether these men were or were not terrorists, they seemed to be moving in a way that HAD to attract attention, and it sounds as though they did so deliberately.

Everyone (including other Middle Eastern passengers) should have been concerned.

It doesn't have to be about race or racial profiling. If 14 young white American men had acted in this way, it would still have been suspicious.



Blank.
User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2369 times:

To all those who doubt this is a true story, there is a follow-up in today's NY Times, here (if you have an account):
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/20/business/20road.html?pagewanted=all

For those who don't have a NY Times account, here are a few excerpts:
There is no doubt that something out of the ordinary happened on Northwest Airlines Flight 327 from Detroit to Los Angeles on June 29. The plane was met at the airport by squads of federal agents and police responding to radio messages from the pilots about concerns that 14 Middle Eastern male passengers had spent the four-hour flight acting suspiciously.

...

I have since spoken at length with Ms. Jacobsen, and also with an official of the Federal Air Marshal Service, who confirmed the gist of Ms. Jacobsen's narrative, if not her interpretation.

...

Then the plane landed without a problem. Waiting at the door were officers from the Federal Air Marshal Service, the F.B.I., the T.S.A. and the Los Angeles Police Department. The 14 men were questioned at length and released.

...

"We interviewed all 14 of these individuals,'' Mr. Adams said. "They were members of a Syrian band" traveling to a gig at a casino near Los Angeles, he said, adding that their names were run through "every possible" data bank and terrorist watch list. "They were scrubbed. Nothing came back."

...

As for the Syrian band, "They gave their little performance in the casino and two days later they flew out on a JetBlue flight from Long Beach to New York," Mr. Adams said.


The journalist, JOE SHARKEY, also wrote that he tried to find that mysterious Syrian Band, but could not locate them.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8770 posts, RR: 42
Reply 19, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2365 times:

"What about Bali, Djerba, Istanbul and some attacks that could be stopped before it was to late?
Sure these attacks weren't in the US of A and not air travel related (exception: Reid) but they show that there is a threat."


I focused on the "Western world", which does not include Bali, Djerba and Istanbul; places where the author of this gem will probably not go in a lifetime because she thinks she'll be bombed to pieces if she ever sets foot in countries like Indonesia, Tunisia and Turkey.

In case this story is true, I sure hope she'll travel by ground in the future (a.k.a. Greyhound Laugh out loud ), that way, she'll spare us this kind of story. Some people really "paint the devil on the wall" each time they see someone act in a way they don't recognise as totally normal. Paranoia at its best.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8770 posts, RR: 42
Reply 20, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2359 times:

"The journalist, JOE SHARKEY, also wrote that he tried to find that mysterious Syrian Band, but could not locate them."

Not that uncommom, is it? If 14 people out of millions visiting the US each year can be terrorists trying out new techniques to blow up a plane with air marshals all around them Yeah sure , other 14 people can be a band that is hard to find - or can't they?



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2342 times:

Not that uncommom, is it?

It's not like these guys were part of a hard-rock garage band out of New Jersey or Ohio - there are probably 500 of them.

How many 14 musician-Syrian band do you know?

I understand all of those who claim that this is paranoia based on racism. But I don't understand how you so easily brush off the possibility that this could be a bit more serious.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8770 posts, RR: 42
Reply 22, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2326 times:

"How many 14 musician-Syrian band do you know?"

None, but what does that prove? I've never been to the Middle East, but there are probably quite a lot of musicians in that area - just like in any other place.

"I understand all of those who claim that this is paranoia based on racism."

I never said anything about racism. But you didn't quote me either.

"But I don't understand how you so easily brush off the possibility that this could be a bit more serious."

Thing is: EVERYTHING could be "a bit more serious", but when it comes to air travel and terrorists, many people act like planes are being bombed to pieces each day. The same people don't care about things that do cost lives on a daily basis.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineAWspicious From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2269 times:

This part made me laugh out loud:

As boarding continued, we watched as, one by one, most of the Middle Eastern men made eye contact with each other. They continued to look at each other and nod, as if they were all in agreement about something.

Ever notice how minorities/"foreigners" all seem to know each other? ;-]
I bet this woman probably doesn't even remember what she nor her own child was wearing... She was so pre-occupied minding these people's business - These "fourteen suspicious looking males". However, I bet she could give a vivid description of the men's attire... Right down to their socks.
It's funny and it's sad... This is the era in which we live.



User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2263 times:

Aloges, I think it is safe to describe the fear the author expresses in her report as collective concern. Even the crew didn't feel safe, nor have they been able to calm the passengers.

Yet, you accuse the messenger only of being paranoid. What makes you so sure that you would stand above of what the majority felt, that you would have acted differently and that your thinking would have been more appropriate than that of - let's say - the crew.

That being said, the report not only focuses on the ominous musicians but also on the screening process (or rather lack thereof). If passengers and the crew would have been confident that all measures had been taken to keep terrorists off from boarding, then they probably would not have considered all motions by the 14 men suspicious.



I support the right to arm bears
25 Schoenorama : JetService: "I wonder how the hell you could possibly know that. Amazing! " By reading the actual article, JetService. This lady spotted one particula
26 NoUFO : Schoenorama, the US of A is often described as "melting pot of nations". It is extremly unlikely the crew never witnessed a group of Arabic people abo
27 NWA742 : that does not mean that this behaviour can't be labelled as racism, because it is. If I walk down a street at night and I see a group of black teenage
28 Post contains images Aloges : "Yet, you accuse the messenger only of being paranoid. What makes you so sure that you would stand above of what the majority felt, that you would hav
29 777236ER : What's emphasised throughout the story was that they were Middle Eastern men. Most of the suspicious behavour was suspicious only because they were fr
30 777236ER : It's funny that 777236ER seems so against any kind of racism, yet he treats Americans quite differently than anybody else. I have nothing against Amer
31 MaverickM11 : "Racial profiling is discriminating on people based solely on their race - ie. racism." Wrong. Racial profiling is profiling based on someone's race,
32 777236ER : Wrong. Racial profiling is profiling based on someone's race, quite simply, which is sound science Profiling is discrimination - profile people based
33 MaverickM11 : "Profiling is discrimination - profile people based on race is to give them different treatment because of their race. Ie. racism." You are so wrong.
34 777236ER : Going only after blacks for the sake of going after blacks with no good reason is wrong and racism; going only after blacks because the security camer
35 777236ER : Going only after blacks for the sake of going after blacks with no good reason is wrong and racism; going only after blacks because the security camer
36 KC7MMI : Even though it is unfortunate for most Middle Eastern people that we have racial profiling, it is necessary for national security. This wouldn't be a
37 777236ER : Even though it is unfortunate for most Middle Eastern people that we have racial profiling A basic civil liberty is thrown away and it's UNFORTUNATE?!
38 Mikedlayer : For all the people saying how pathetic this article is, I'd like to wonder how you would be in the same situation, and how you would feel if the situa
39 KC7MMI : A basic civil liberty is thrown away and it's UNFORTUNATE?! Yes, it is unfortunate! If the damn terrorists (most of which are of Middle Eastern decent
40 Schoenorama : NoUFO: "Schoenorama, the US of A is often described as "melting pot of nations". It is extremly unlikely the crew never witnessed a group of Arabic pe
41 KC7MMI : One more thing and then I'm done with this thread: It's UNFORTUNATE they must worry about racial profiling and we must worry about being killed in a t
42 NWA742 : I have nothing against Americans - find me just ONE post where I've said anything where I discriminated against Americans. Just because I don't like t
43 777236ER : Racial profiling would be having airport screeners and security personnel keep an extra eye on any Arabs that look nervous, or behave in any other kin
44 NWA742 : But one of the negative effects of 'racial profiling' is that one tends to over-react and be hypersensitive to even the slightest deviation from what
45 NWA742 : Nope, wrong. Racial profiling would be having airport screeners and security personnel keep and extra eye on certain races simply because of their rac
46 777236ER : Racial profiling uses skin color, but for a LOGICAL AND PROVEN REASON. So you admit it's racism? Whether it's needed or not, it's racism?
47 Go Canada! : I wouldnt care if it was 18 women wearing bright pink tutus or 12 germans standing around signing, I would still be concerned about a group of people
48 NWA742 : So you admit it's racism? Whether it's needed or not, it's racism? This whole time I've been trying to tell you how it's not racism, I've given you ex
49 MaverickM11 : "So you admit it's racism? Whether it's needed or not, it's racism?" I think YOU are racist! If racial profiling is "racist" then tampon marketing is
50 Post contains links Nancy : I believe that this may have been the musical group http://www.geocities.com/kinankulnasawa/about.html
51 Post contains links Diamond : REPEAT: This topic was opened in the Civil Aiviation forum 4 days ago: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1654841/
52 777236ER : Racism is believing a certain race to be inferior by some means, racial profiling means it's name: profiling of a race in a certain environment for a
53 JGPH1A : Re: tampon marketing is sexist (and racist in your vocabulary) because it only markets to women. Crap - there's nothing stopping you watching tampon a
54 MaverickM11 : "Crap - there's nothing stopping you watching tampon ads, or rushing out and buying yourself a twelve-pack of Heavy Flow. It would only be discriminat
55 NWA742 : Wrong again. You're right in that ONE definition of racism is the belief that one race is superior to another First you say I'm wrong, then you say I'
56 EA CO AS : "The next day, I began searching online for news about the incident. There was nothing." Translation: Even if you don't find anything anywhere, it is
57 777236ER : Keeping an eye out for suspicious behavior in Arabs at US airports is a case of racial profiling, involving behavioral observation Ie. giving Arabs sp
58 MaverickM11 : "Ie. giving Arabs special treatment because of their race solely - RACISM. " At least we agree Affirmative Action is racism.
59 EA CO AS : Ie. giving Arabs special treatment because of their race solely - RACISM. Isn't bending over backwards NOT to screen more than 2 Arabs per flight "spe
60 777236ER : Isn't bending over backwards NOT to screen more than 2 Arabs per flight "special treatment," though - therefore making it racism, too? Yes, of course
61 Post contains images EA CO AS : Then we'd have a paradox. By intentionally NOT screening a predetermined number of Arabs for fear of profiling, we're being racists... ...but if we DO
62 NWA742 : Ie. giving Arabs special treatment because of their race solely - RACISM. I just told you how it wasn't simply because of their race, it involves race
63 Aviationwiz : I hope I'm not posting about something that was already talked about. Yes, it was, threads about this actually were coming faster than the NW DC-9 thr
64 777236ER : By intentionally NOT screening a predetermined number of Arabs for fear of profiling, we're being racists... ...but if we DO screen by profile, we're
65 EA CO AS : So why not just screen EVERYONE adequatly and reasonably? Because, unfortunately, it takes too long and costs too much to screen everyone to the same
66 777236ER : Security is apparently tighter in the rest of the world and doesn't seem to cost as much, take as long or discriminate as much as in the US.
67 NWA742 : So why not just screen EVERYONE adequatly and reasonably? They do, nobody in the race would be affected by racial profiling unless they were behaving
68 EA CO AS : Security is apparently tighter in the rest of the world and doesn't seem to cost as much, take as long or discriminate as much as in the US. Do the ai
69 777236ER : They do, nobody in the race would be affected by racial profiling unless they were behaving in such a way to be affected. For crying out loud, if its
70 NWA742 : For crying out loud, if its their BEHAVOIR that's causing concern and causes them to be screened differently it's behavoiral profiling. If its their r
71 777236ER : Racial profiling singles out a race, but how does it discriminate a race? 'Discriminating' is the act of singling out... Hence by definition, singling
72 NWA742 : Very well, my mistake, racial profiling is discrimination (singling out) a race, but is it racist? I've given my arguments as to how it isn't racism,
73 NWA Man : Yes, it was, threads about this actually were coming faster than the NW DC-9 threads. True - there were probably more than five, and all of them had e
74 777236ER : By definition it's racism, that's the point I'm trying to make. However, that doesn't nessecarily make it BAD. The problem with this article though is
75 Post contains images EA CO AS : You still haven't answered my question, 777236ER.
76 MaverickM11 : "2. The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment. " According to 777236ER, if you ever make a distinction (ie choosing chocolate
77 NWA742 : By definition it's racism, that's the point I'm trying to make. I'm saying that it's not racism. You use this definition: Discrimination or prejudice
78 777236ER : According to 777236ER, if you ever make a distinction (ie choosing chocolate ice cream over strawberry) you're being racist. No, presumably that's dis
79 MaverickM11 : "No, presumably that's discriminating based on taste. Discriminating based on race is racism. If you'd bothered to read you'd note that definition was
80 777236ER : When has 'racism' ever been used in the "good" sense? If certain people on here will want us to think, it's ok when it's got something to do with airp
81 JAL777 : If certain people on here will want us to think, it's ok when it's got something to do with airport security. So what would you suggest? You have limi
82 777236ER : Screening of all bags? Better intelligence? Look to other countries for help?
83 JAL777 : Screening of all bags? Better intelligence? Look to other countries for help? You have limited resources.
84 MaverickM11 : "If certain people on here will want us to think, it's ok when it's got something to do with airport security." Same thing goes for affirmative action
85 777236ER : It is unintelligent and irresponsible to treat each passenger as an equal threat when you know some have a higher risk probability than others. And it
86 777236ER : You have limited resources. Moreso other nations - yet no one else's planes have been flown into buildings.
87 NWA742 : 777236ER, You are wrong on saying that racial profiling is racism in the first place. The only thing racial profiling has to do with racism is discrim
88 MaverickM11 : "Moreso other nations - yet no one else's planes have been flown into buildings" That's because we've been screening everyone in the interest of "tole
89 MaverickM11 : "Presumably choosing people for a race-specific part in a play for example required racial discrimination?" That's a streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch.
90 MaverickM11 : "And it is against someone's human rights to treat them differently just because they have different coloured skin. " I think the human right to LIFE
91 777236ER : So the ends justifies the means?
92 MaverickM11 : "So the ends justifies the means?" If spending 2 more minutes on some guys luggage is going to prevent a plane from flying into a building, abso-freak
93 777236ER : But this isn't about spending two more minutes on someone's luggage. If it comes to that, the other screening is useless and you might as well just le
94 MaverickM11 : "Surely everyone should be screened equally?" Why?
95 777236ER : Because what's to stop an old woman carrying box cutters?
96 Jaysit : Do you really think that post 9-11 Al Qaeda will send 6 Arab men on an airplane to blow it up? That modus operandi has been exhausted. Body cavity sea
97 MaverickM11 : "Do you really think that post 9-11 Al Qaeda will send 6 Arab men on an airplane to blow it up?" I haven't really researched it so I have no idea. For
98 Post contains images EA CO AS : And again, you STILL haven't answered my question, 777236ER.
99 MaverickM11 : "She almost got on board, and were it not for the extensive search of every passenger on board by El AL security" El Al is the strongest proponent and
100 777236ER : What question is that EA CO AS?
101 Nudelhirsch : If it is really true, wow that is scary, when you are on board. And it was more than obvious that this thread would become what it is... But what puzz
102 NWA742 : 777236ER, you need to respond to me too............ -NWA742
103 Flymia : It is a little wired guys. But the article made bad points. First No one can get into the cockpit so who cares if the person is next to it. And also o
104 Go Canada! : i just cant believe that a syrian band of musicans didnt know how to behave on a plane!
105 777236ER : The only thing racial profiling has to do with racism is discrimination, that's true, but you have no case with this at all. That's because profiling
106 MaverickM11 : "One could take the argument further and say that as it is felt that Arabs need to be singled out their race is inferior to others in that they are th
107 777236ER : You're actually saying Arabs are inferior to other races? Or did you not read once again?
108 NWA742 : Discrimination based on race is racism by definition. By WHAT definition? The single simple one that you used? I just put forth 5 different definition
109 777236ER : By WHAT definition? The single simple one that you used? I just put forth 5 different definitions that are a little more in-depth than the one you pro
110 JGPH1A : Re: profiling would be based on the fact that Arabs have a strong history of terrorism What - of the 200 squillion Arabs in the world, maybe 1500 or 2
111 MaverickM11 : "You're actually saying Arabs are inferior to other races? Or did you not read once again?" No you're joining two statements that have nothing to do w
112 NWA742 : Once again, discrimination. So it seems that my definition is valid and hence racial profiling is racism. Your definition does point profiling as raci
113 EA CO AS : What question is that EA CO AS? Here's what I copied from our previous part of the discussion above: Security is apparently tighter in the rest of the
114 777236ER : The reason Arabs/North Africans/South Asians are profiled is because they are the perpetrators of the majority of air terrorism. Whether that makes th
115 MaverickM11 : "An oxymoron. You say certain races should be profiled because they're the ones doing the terrorism, then saying race has nothing to do with it. " Wro
116 NWA742 : You don't have to fulfil all the definitions in order to be something. For example: With a touchy subject like racism, I think you do. Simply singling
117 Delayedagain : So why aren't Irishmen profiled ? They are! I'm sure JGPH1A knows about the procedures travelling between GB & Ireland. 777 realised pretty quickly he
118 Post contains links Schoenorama : Just found this: "Thanks to a tip from Jerseygirl, I watched the CNN/Aaron Brown interview with Annie Jacobsen last night (and I have to say, the phot
119 Flymia : JGPH1A: True almost all arabs are peaceful. But first there are more than 1500-2000 terrorist that are arab. Just like there are more than 10,000 nat
120 EA CO AS : EA CO AS, If cost is a problem in the US, then perhaps it's time to change how security is funded. If you start a poll in Civil Aviation I think you'l
121 Post contains images MxCtrlr : The bottom line here is that those who fail to heed the past are doomed to repeat it. Imagine, just for one second, if the people on the planes that h
122 Nancy : A couple of my friends are Algerian (and US citizens) and they said that they get searched every time they get on a plane. They just expect it. They'r
123 SESGDL : When I flew from MSP-SEA in July of 2002 there was an Arabic woman on the plane. She was pulled aside FOUR times before boarding, then her bags were s
124 Post contains links Damirc : Unfortunately for that lady ... it wasn't a dry run ... http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/skyterror.asp Maybe she just needs to relax a bit before
125 Post contains images Lehpron : >> "More like profiling, which a lot of people have no problem with, for many good reasons"
126 Post contains images Mandala499 : What of on that NW flight, there was a Federal Air Marshall of Middle Eastern descent... and talked to the "suspects"... would the lady get freaked ou
127 Aloges : "Unfortunately for that lady ... it wasn't a dry run ... http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/skyterror.asp Maybe she just needs to relax a bit before
128 Nancy : "The source said the air marshals on the flight were partially concerned Jacobsen's actions could have been an effort by terrorists or attackers to c
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