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Centrist And Proud  
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1505 times:

To offset the extremists, bitter rant of Matt D, I'll put down my own things I'm proud or pleased about:

1. I have voted for both Democrats and Republicans. Sometime, party affilliation doesn't count for much.

2. I believe in equal rights for others. Not preferences, or quota's, but equal chances for everyone.

3. I believe, further, in equal rights for woman. That doesn't mean I believe in the eviceration of males, as the Andrea Dworkin's of the world want ,but simply equal pay for equal jobs, and respect for the work they do.

4. I don't give a shit about OJ, or the Ramsey's, or the Peterson's.

5. I've taught my children to be tolerant of others, to question things they don't understand or agree with; to treat others with dignity and respect, and to not think they're any better or any worse than anyone else.

6. I don't wear my faith on my sleeve ,use it as a political weapon, or use it to promote hatred, discrimination and fear.

7. I do not believe in gay marriage; I do think gay union should be legal. I do NOT believe that being against gay marriage is a license to call for state-sponsored discrimination and intimidation.

8. I believe we should treat our friends and allies with respect, and with the knowledge that a. we aren't the only ones ever attacked by terrorists, and 2. that our actions, as the great power on earth makes it important that we DO consider the views and recommendations of our friends and allies, and not simply dismiss what they say, and go our own way.

9. I don't agree that illegals should get voting rights, or driving rights, but I think they should be given basic human services if they are in this country.

10, I've never found any satisfaction in wishing anyone else suffer, or is miserable, or is injured in someway, as some people seem to do.

11. I believe in not being self-centered, as the conservative creed preaches. To paraphrase Jesus Christ "whatsoever you do to the least among you, is that which you do unto me." So-called "christians" who have their narrow, intolerant views should think about that sometime.

12. I, as a white male, in the United States, am part of the most privelaged and powerful group of human beings in the world, and I don't see where I have to hold grudges and hatreds against minorities, women, and those who may have a different sexual orientation.

13. I love my country. That doesn't mean I have to agree when we treat others like shit; it doesn't mean I have to agree with or like the current president; that doesn't mean I have to belittle other nations and people because of that love.

14. I believe that our government should be what our founders wanted it to be: "Of the people, by the people, for the people", not "of business, by business, for business", as the current adminstration believes.

15. I don't own a gun, and I never will. Owning somthing that is inherently made to kill isn't something to be proud about.

16. Someone is no less of an American if they don't want to say the word "God" in the pledge: if they want to burn the flag in protest; or if they don't get teary-eyed, or beat their chest, when hearing patriotic songs.

17. I believe that since I'm mortal, that greed and bigorty and hatred diminish who we are, in the limited time we've been given on this earth. You can't take the wealth with you when you die, so why make wealth the driving point of your life.

I think this is a much better way to live than the bitter, selfish and petty way that another memeber posted his beliefs above.

[Edited 2004-08-09 06:06:49]

63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKYIPpilot From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1383 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1482 times:

Wow! Alpha, if I could put you on my RU list twice, I would. I believe in all of the same values. I wish all of the people in this country could live like this, too. But please don't bash Matt D, he is entitled to his opinion also.  Smile


"It starts when you're always afraid; You step out of line, the man come and take you away" -Buffalo Springfield
User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 48
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1472 times:

1. I have voted for both Democrats and Republicans. Sometime, party affilliation doesn't count for much.

In this day and age, that's true. That's why neither the Dems OR the GOP appeals to me anymore.

2. I believe in equal rights for others. Not preferences, or quota's, but equal chances for everyone.

So do I. But when "equality" is defined as quotas, I draw the line. Also, equality cannot be achieved at the expense of others. There will always be haves and have nots.

3. I believe, further, in equal rights for woman. That doesn't mean I believe in the eviceration of males, as the Andrea Dworkin's of the world want ,but simply equal pay for equal jobs, and respect for the work they do.

Again, so do I. But usually, for the Feminists of the world, equality is defined as "same or equal power and/or pay as men, but we still expect only the men to do the dirty work such as combat, lifting boxes, paying the bills, and opening doors."

4. I don't give a shit about OJ, or the Ramsey's, or the Peterson's.

More power to you.

5. I've taught my children to be tolerant of others, to question things they don't understand or agree with; to treat others with dignity and respect, and to not think they're any better or any worse than anyone else.

This is nothing new. Once again, I agree. But when it becomes one sided, such as "We're here. We're queer. You have to accept us, but we don't have to accept you", that's where I draw the line.

6. I don't wear my faith on my sleeve ,use it as a political weapon, or use it to promote hatred, discrimination and fear.

If you think that I go running around screaming Scripture, neither do I. Now when you say "hatred, discrimination, and fear", please elaborate. Is holding someone accountable for their actions-even if it means damaging their "self esteem" defined as hate and fear? Other than the handful of faux, extremist "Christians" (i.e. the ones that blow up abortion clinics), every Christian I've ever met, when they reach an impasse simply walk away. They don't have to resort to violence to get their point(s) across.

7. I do not believe in gay marriage; I do think gay union should be legal. I do NOT believe that being against gay marriage is a license to call for state-sponsored discrimination and intimidation.

Once again, I agree. I think the only reason the Gays are in such an uproar over the word "marriage" is simply a case of sour grapes; they want it. But they can't have it. It's all a semantics game.

8. I believe we should treat our friends and allies with respect, and with the knowledge that a. we aren't the only ones ever attacked by terrorists, and 2. that our actions, as the great power on earth makes it important that we DO consider the views and recommendations of our friends and allies, and not simply dismiss what they say, and go our own way.

Getting some input and having friends is important. But when it comes to our business, we should still make our own decisions.

9. I don't agree that illegals should get voting rights, or driving rights, but I think they should be given basic human services if they are in this country.

I don't think illegals are entitled to ANYTHING except a one way bus ride to their port of entry. What part of illegal is vague? Why SHOULD they be entitled to anything?

10, I've never found any satisfaction in wishing anyone else suffer, or is miserable, or is injured in someway, as some people seem to do.

Shame on you Alpha if you think that I relish in seeing suffering just for the sake of seeing suffering. You think I'm sort of sadist or something? Like the old saying goes: "feed a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, and you feed him for life. Sure, it's easier and seemingly more compassionate to give him a fish a day, but you really aren't doing him any favors in the long run. And why should I have to pay for it?

11. I believe in not being self-centered, as the conservative creed preaches. To paraphrase Jesus Christ "whatsoever you do to the least among you, is that which you do unto me." So-called "christians" who have their narrow, intolerant views should think about that sometime.

Do you *really*mean intolerant, or simply a non Politically Correct viewpoint?

12. I, as a white male, in the United States, am part of the most privelaged and powerful group of human beings in the world, and I don't see where I have to hold grudges and hatreds against minorities, women, and those who may have a different sexual orientation.

The only people I hold grudges against are the ones that think they can get by or ahead in life at my expense, or by casting nonexistant epithets against me-such as blaming me for slavery. As though I had anything to do with that.

13. I love my country. That doesn't mean I have to agree when we treat others like shit; it doesn't mean I have to agree with or like the current president; that doesn't mean I have to belittle other nations and people because of that love.

I agree.

14. I believe that our government should be what our founders wanted it to be: "Of the people, by the people, for the people", not "of business, by business, for business", as the current adminstration believes.

I also agree, which is another reason I am frothing at the mouth for a viable third party to rise to power.

15. I don't own a gun, and I never will. Owning somthing that is inherently made to kill isn't something to be proud about.

It's like an insurance policy. You hope you never need it. But if I ever do, I'll be damn glad I have it. If there is a burglar in my house, I sure as shit am not waiting for the police to take their sweet time coming here.

16. Someone is no less of an American if they don't want to say the word "God" in the pledge: if they want to burn the flag in protest; or if they don't get teary-eyed, or beat their chest, when hearing patriotic songs.

As much as it pains me to say it, I agree with you. If someone in this country says or does something that I don't agree with, I will still defend their right to say it. But if the country is THAT bad that you find it necessary to spit on the President or burn our flag, then what's stopping you from leaving it?

17. I believe that since I'm mortal, that greed and bigorty and hatred diminish who we are, in the limited time we've been given on this earth. You can't take the wealth with you when you die, so why make wealth the driving point of your life.

Because money is not the sole thing driving my life. I believe I have a right to pursue whatever standard of living I choose. But I think that I should be entitled to keep what I earn. What I get up in arms about is when someone sees what I have, and if they don't have it, they somehow think that I owe them.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21353 posts, RR: 54
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1470 times:

So you´re basing your life on sissy ideals, on respecting others and on compassion? Ideas that could inspire others (even (shudder) non-americans!), gain respect and help building a better world?

Come on, dude, everybody knows that that will not fly. You need to hate, despise and reject others first and foremost to state your identity! Doesn´t the US constitution say so as well?

It doesn´t? Oh. Who would have thought...?!  Nuts


User currently offlineJAL777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1462 times:

Centrist And Pround

I'm guessing spelling isn't a centrist idea? Big grin


User currently offlineMxCtrlr From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2485 posts, RR: 36
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1444 times:

Alpha1,

You continue to amaze me, dude. Sometimes you are SUCH an asshole yet there are those times, such as now, that you make at least some sense. While I do not condone or support everything you said in this post (at least), I do respect the fact that you took the time to post it.  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up

Klaus,

Do you think you might just add a slight touch of sarcasm to your future posts? This last one was sooo sentimental and sugary I almost got diabetes from reading it!  Yeah sure

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool



DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1442 times:

" but I think they should be given basic human services if they are in this country. "

LOL... that is a good one. Such a 'feel good' statement, with no teeth, no definition, etc. etc. etc.


"I'm guessing spelling isn't a centrist idea?"

I can see it now, Alpha and Randy in a spelling bee shoot out. Last one standing wins... LOL...


User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 48
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1435 times:

It never ceases to amaze me whenever we have a debate that someone always comes along and tries to shoot down the whole argument solely on the basis of one or two grammatical errors.

C'mon people....you can do better than that.



User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1418 times:

Shame on you Alpha if you think that I relish in seeing suffering just for the sake of seeing suffering.

"37. Sometimes, you just have to let someone wallow in misery for awhile."

Next.

The only people I hold grudges against are the ones that think they can get by or ahead in life at my expense.

You mean, the way us white males have done to so many throughout the history of this country? Like that? Oh, I get it. In other words, it was OK when we stepped all over Indians, women, blacks, hispanics, Asians, etc, but if they DARE step back, and assert themselves, you have a problem with it.



If there is a burglar in my house, I sure as shit am not waiting for the police to take their sweet time coming here.

There's a far greater chance someone will accidentally get hurt or killed by that gun, than there is a burgler picking your house. You want to live in fear, go ahead, I won't.

But if the country is THAT bad that you find it necessary to spit on the President or burn our flag, then what's stopping you from leaving it?

As far as I'm concerned, they're trying to CHANGE it, so why leave?

It never ceases to amaze me whenever we have a debate that someone always comes along and tries to shoot down the whole argument solely on the basis of one or two grammatical errors.

C'mon people....you can do better than that.


No, they can't, MattD, because, unlike yourself, they're bereft of ideas or a coherent thought to support their opinion. I do respect you because you have the balls to say what you do, knowing that someone like me, who believes almost the exact opposite, will fry your ass. Some others, whom I shall not name, on BOTH sides of the spectrum, don't have such stones between their legs.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16228 posts, RR: 57
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1400 times:

Alpha, as a white man living in a white suburb of a mostly black economically struggling city, there is nothing centrist about you. You are as hard core right wing as they come.

Instead of professing liberal ideals from the safety of a suburban basement in a white CLE enclave, go and do some volunteer work in the poor hoods of CLE; invite a black orphan to spend the summer with your family; provide counselling to poor black teenagers. That's what being a centrist is all about.

Until you do any of this, there is nothing liberal or centrist about you. You're as right wing as they come.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1389 times:

Alpha, as a white man living in a white suburb of a mostly black economically struggling city, there is nothing centrist about you

1. The city I live in isn't considered a 'burb of Cleveland.

2. It's 55% black. The city I was born in, and lived in for the first 16 years of my life, was bout 70% black. You don't know a fucking thing about where I live, or what I grew up with.

And I wouldn't expect someone so far out to the right, like yoruself, or so far to the left, like Roy or Dc10guy, to even have a clue to what a centrist is.

Instead of professing liberal ideals from the safety of a suburban basement/

I don't have a basement. We live in a split-level home. Going to keep making a total arse out of yourself?

You're as right wing as they come.

I guess the answer to my last question would be a big no.


User currently offlineB2707SST From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 1369 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1379 times:

5. I've taught my children to be tolerant of others, to question things they don't understand or agree with; to treat others with dignity and respect, and to not think they're any better or any worse than anyone else.

----

[Alpha 1 about Matt D's list] All those who agree with him: I don't see how you really consider yourself human beings. You're self-centered, pitiless, merciless, cowardly, bitter people.... You're just as inhuman as they are.


I agree with many of the points on Alpha 1's list, including #5, but does anyone else see a contradiction here?

--B2707SST



Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1370 times:

I don't see a contradiciton at all. I call a spade a spade. I don't see any problem with that.

User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1338 times:

Ahem, Alpha1, I point you to this thread, you little thief!  Wink/being sarcastic

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/488677

But at least it's nice to know I'm not alone.

But beware...dc10guy will claim you don't have a spine, jcs17 will say you're out for RR, and BN747 will call you a racist anyway. And Indianguy...well, he's in a whole different ballgame.  Big thumbs up

B4e-Forever New Frontiers


User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1333 times:

There's a far greater chance someone will accidentally get hurt or killed by that gun, than there is a burgler picking your house.

It's not so simple, Alpha 1.

Guns in the house are only dangerous if those in the house are irresponsible. 100% of all accidental gun shootings in the home are due to irresponsibility and nothing else.

Having a gun in the home is not the problem, irresponsible gun ownership is the problem.

It's the same with automobiles and aircraft. Irresponsible drivers kill people on the road in America every single day. Irresponsible pilots kill people as well. See what I'm getting at?

You want to live in fear, go ahead, I won't.

Just because you own a gun doesn't mean you live in fear.........what you said probably applies to about .0001% of gun owners.

Aside from hobbies and sports, I see gun ownership as a further step in the responsibility for the safety of your family



-NWA742


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16931 posts, RR: 48
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1325 times:

"not "of business, by business, for business", as the current adminstration believes.
"

WTF??? Have you been asleep during the last few administrations? This is not a new thing or specific to this administration. Centrist my arse!



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1320 times:

"..knowing that someone like me, who believes almost the exact opposite, will fry your ass.."

LOL... a legend in your own mind..

Nothing like a ticket agent with 'stones' between his legs is there...?

Centrist=claiming to have been on the winning side all along, when others no better....

Matt, you are taking this stuff too seriously.


User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5477 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1313 times:

B4E:BN747 will call you a racist anyway.

Hmmm.. okay, I'll bite... Alpha's a racist. (yeah right)!  Insane

Except he's 'a racist you (B4E) could learn a thing or two from... l


BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16931 posts, RR: 48
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1313 times:

"There's a far greater chance someone will accidentally get hurt or killed by that gun, than there is a burgler picking your house. You want to live in fear, go ahead, I won't."

There is a far greater chance of a child drowning in a bucket of water than getting killed by a gun.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1311 times:

2. I believe in equal rights for others. Not preferences, or quota's, but equal chances for everyone.

That's what Alpha1 said BN...he doesn't like quotas...ie Affirmative Action.

Get your head out of your ass and actually prove that I'm a racist...

Until then, an apology from you is in order.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers


User currently offlineJcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 40
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1303 times:

Alpha, for you to call yourself a centrist is like Indianguy calling himself pro-American. Seriously, do you realize how much hatred and vitriol you spew at not just Bush, but the entire Republican party platforms on a daily basis? I think you need to look in the mirror and realize that you are a Democrat and to call yourself a 'centrist' is absolutely false.


America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5477 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1287 times:

Alpha can speak for himself? He doesn't need you to translate for him.

I've seen his post and know of his awareness of the state of the nation as far race relations are concerned.

And oh yeah, B4E...and I owe you 'SQUAT!'

BN747




"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1287 times:

Alpha can speak for himself? He doesn't need you to translate for him.

I've seen his post and know of his awareness of the state of the nation as far race relations are concerned.


And yet you know nothing of others' views. I'm not speaking for him, I'm pointing out something to you since you have selective reading skills.

And oh yeah, B4E...and I owe you 'SQUAT!'

You have failed to prove that I'm racist. Yet you continue to slander me. Yes, you DO owe me an apology.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16228 posts, RR: 57
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1278 times:

1. The city I live in isn't considered a 'burb of Cleveland.

Rabbiting on about left-wing causes from the comfort of your split-level house on anet after your kids are in bed does not make you a centrist.

Centrism or liberalism is determined by actions, not hollow words from the comfort of a white suburb.





Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineDiamond From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3279 posts, RR: 64
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1263 times:

White suburb?

Comfort of your split-level house?

Kids in bed?


It doesn't make any difference where anyone lives. It doesn't make any difference what 'color' their neighborhood is. It doesn't matter whether a house has several levels or one level.

Several of the above posts REEK of people resenting the rather modest descriptions of how someone lives - and are trying to characterize it as elitist.

If you want to turn this thread into a discussion about how truly wealthy people live - AND VOTE - then go ahead. But aside from the Hollywood community, you're going to be pointing your fingers and the elite within your own Republican party.

The GOP has attempted to make a big deal out of Kerry's wealth. But how many THOUSANDS of people who are WEALTHIER than Kerry are voting Republican? Many - if not most of them.

I cannot believe that someone would point out a split-level house in the suburbs of Cleveland, and use it to characterize the way that someone thinks, or the way that they view life.

Just stupid.








Blank.
25 Alpha 1 : Guns in the house are only dangerous if those in the house are irresponsible. 100% of all accidental gun shootings in the home are due to irresponsibi
26 QIguy24 : I see gun ownership as a further step in the responsibility for the safety of your family. This is the biggest BS I have ever heard. I mean come one
27 Luisca : The GOP has attempted to make a big deal out of Kerry's wealth. But how many THOUSANDS of people who are WEALTHIER than Kerry are voting Republican? M
28 MaverickM11 : "And again, even with responsible people, [gun] accidents happen" They're exceedingly rare compared to, say, pool drownings.
29 NonRevKing : Since when did the Class Struggle become a platform of the Democratic party? I am sick of their divisionism. A lot of ordinary people vote republican,
30 B747forlife : NonRevKing, that's where you're wrong. Well, technically you're right because Bush won the election, not Luisca. According to the Constitution and the
31 NWA742 : the chance of that happeneing are far greater than some stray burgler picking your house. Far greater? Bull. The chances of a gun accident in the home
32 NonRevKing : B747forlife: Bitter? No, far from it. I'm quite enjoying the man you right wingers fought so hard for to get in office make a complete ass of himself.
33 NWA742 : The FACT remains, GWB lost the popular vote. The FACT remains, GWB won the election. That's what I was referring to, and you know it. Here's what you
34 Post contains images NonRevKing : For God's sake, you guys are truly pathetic. Classic right wingers, refuse to admit when one of their own is wrong, instead try and muddy up the issue
35 MaverickM11 : "GWB lost the general election (aka the popular vote) in 2000. More people voted for Gore. GWB won the electoral college...Unfortunatly. " Fair enough
36 NonRevKing : we had no idea "what you meant" Wow, and here I was giving you guys credit for being intelligent. Anyway, this is such an awesome post by Alpha1, and
37 Dvk : But we don't really know if W won the electoral vote. The Supreme Court elected W president 5-4 .
38 MaverickM11 : "Wow, and here I was giving you guys credit for being intelligent." We are, but we're not mind readers. We're sorry we didn't know that by "election"
39 N6376m : GWB lost the general election (aka the popular vote) in 2000. More people voted for Gore. GWB won the electoral college...Unfortunatly. More people vo
40 NWA742 : Period end of story. It should be that way, N6376m, but some people will never let it go. They just can't deal with the fact that their party lost, an
41 NonRevKing : They just can't deal with the fact that their party lost, and they will forever bitch about it. Sums up nicely my thoughts on the right's reaction to
42 Diamond : " ... Since when did the Class Struggle become a platform of the Democratic party? I am sick of their divisionism. A lot of ordinary people vote repub
43 Post contains images NonRevKing : Very good point D-man. Also like to add my cheers to see you're feeling better B
44 MaverickM11 : "As a result of corruption in Florida in 2000 and 2004, the U.S. Presidential Election is now being observed by an International Election Monitoring C
45 B2707SST : It was 'given' to him in a decision made by the Supreme Court Bush won every single vote count ever conducted in Florida: the initial machine count, t
46 Diamond : B2707sst - Your facts are wrong. Way wrong. Not even close. The count and recount statement above is wrong. The Supreme Court decision is laid out inc
47 Post contains links MaverickM11 : "Your facts are wrong. Way wrong. Not even close. The count and recount statement above is wrong." Care to explain? There's an interesting little widg
48 Diamond : Statewide recount If a statewide recount of all disqualified ballots was undertaken using the standards each county’s election officials have said
49 MaverickM11 : "However, I'm not going to let people tell half-truths and outright lies to re-write history" But you just did. You combined two results from divergen
50 Post contains links B2707SST : The count and recount statement above is wrong. Fine. You show me ONE ACTUAL RECOUNT in which Al Gore led Bush, not hypotheticals cooked up after the
51 B747forlife : NonRevKing - How dare you call me a right winger (not that there's a problem with it) as if you know anything about me and my ideology. At the time of
52 Post contains images NonRevKing : Nick, Hope you feel better now that you've gotten that little rant off your chest. The rest of us have moved on with life. Feel free to join us anytim
53 Alpha 1 : If your house gets broken into by dangerous robbers looking to harm you and your family and take your things, you better see damn well that a gun woul
54 MaverickM11 : "I'm far more responsible-I don't own one. That's being even more responsible." Do you have a pool? If you have children it's far more dangerous to ha
55 TriJetFan1 : Yyz717- "Alpha, as a white man living in a white suburb of a mostly black economically struggling city, there is nothing centrist about you. You are a
56 Alpha 1 : Do you have a pool? If you have children it's far more dangerous to have a pool than a gun. No, I don't have a pool. You're really desperate, Maverick
57 Post contains images MaverickM11 : "Guns suck. Not a bad creed to live by." Yeah they suck...but all things considered there are more dangerous things out there that don't get half as m
58 NWA742 : Well, I've been on this earth 43 years now, and it's never happened, so I'm not too worried about it. Again, just because there's a slim chance doesn'
59 Post contains images Alpha 1 : Golly, I think that makes me a centrist. Let's not get carried away here! Again, just because there's a slim chance doesn't mean it won't happen to yo
60 MaverickM11 : "No. Cars are not made with the expressed intent to injure and kill. That IS the main intent of a gun. " Fair enough, but cars result in about 20,000
61 NWA742 : Yes, but I'm not a paranoid worrier, who will, on the billion-to-one chance it does happen, have to have a gun in my house. Again, even responsible ow
62 Luisca : If guns were banned, would CRIMINALS witch break the law every single day respect it and not get guns underground? That is were the argument fails. Di
63 NWA742 : Banning guns would create the largest illegal market in the United States.......simple as that.........it would make the illegal drug market look like
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