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Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State  
User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 47
Posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1541 times:

Seems the man has more then 7 lives!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3569012.stm

Since 1998 he survived two presidential elections, six referendums and came back to power after a US supported coup which ousted him for 48 hrs.

I think we can now say without doubt he truly is an elected leader, so can the US and the right wing coalition in Venezuela stop trying to get him out of power and let the man get on with his work?

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1515 times:

It's a big Fraude!! At least that's what the news here say...

KL911



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21413 posts, RR: 54
Reply 2, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1508 times:

The international monitors haven´t complained as of now...

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21413 posts, RR: 54
Reply 3, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1494 times:

Welll... the response doesn´t actually contribute any information; It doesn´t rebuke any of the original article´s points. It apparently generalizes from individual incidents which are not explained in any way.

It sounds a lot like a rant by a frustrated opposition politician. I´d like a little more information, please!


User currently offlineLHSebi From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 1049 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1486 times:

It apparently generalizes from individual incidents which are not explained in any way.

I'm sorry, I suppose you need to have followed the situation in Venezuela more closely to completely understand the article/response. I am not going to explain every incident in detail, but I am sure you can find lots of information on the net. If you just read up on some of the news articles from the coup in late April 2002, you will find many of these incidents clarified. Hope this helps!

Sebastian

Edit: wrong html tags

[Edited 2004-08-16 16:49:37]


I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1471 times:

Klaus Please dont speak what you dont know, He is a Dictator, he has ordered military to SHOOT protesters. He has turned Venezuela into a Castro Type Communist dictatorship, I have Family in Venezuela, they are not "rich elite" but they think this man is INSANE. He created a special branch of the army that serves only him, And news over here is calling it a Fraud.

User currently offlineLHSebi From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 1049 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1470 times:

Thank you Luisca  Smile

Sebastian



I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1472 times:

It is so nice to see the communists and socialists on this site come out and support a murderous dictator. I'll say one thing for the left and that is they're consistent in who they support.


"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineUssherd From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 328 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1469 times:

Another long post, and only half of what I have to say. Don't get me started on what's wrong with Venezuela!

I'm disappointed by the results of the referendum, but if the results are deemed valid by the international observers, the opposition now has no option other than to shut up and accept the inevitable. My desire to see Chávez ousted has nothing to do with political or social ideology - it's simply based on the fact that, under Chávez, the Venezuelan economy has gone from bad to worse. The poor and middle class folk are worse off than ever; and as for the rich elites, I can't say anything about them (as I’m not personally acquainted with any of that class!), but I imagine that they’re as rich as ever. What is stated in the link below rings true for me, as it echoes what I myself have seen, and what family and friends in Venezuela are telling me.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4413284,00.html

A few points from the article:

* The economy shrank 9 percent last year and hasn't grown since 2001.
* Per capita income was $5,380 from 1990 to 2002 - below that of neighbouring Colombia, Panama and the Dominican Republic.
* Unemployment is 15 percent, according to government statistics, compared with 11 percent in 1998.
* More than half of adult Venezuelans lack formal employment, eking out livings as maids, cabbies or street peddlers.
* Of more than 11,000 factories operating in 1999, fewer than 5,000 were still open in 2003, according to Venezuela's leading industry chamber, Conindustria
* Inflation is expected to reach 25 percent in 2004; the highest in Latin America.

Add to this the government’s efforts to limit the freedom of the press and the repeated warnings from international bodies regarding the erosion of the independence of the various branches of the government.

The president has spent millions on far-reaching social 'missions', including a nationwide literacy program, scholarships to help people finish high school, state-run bargain supermarkets and Cuban doctors sent to work in slums. These programmes have had a positive impact on their lives, so it's understandable that the poor should vote for Chávez - they're more concerned with their daily needs rather than in the big picture. The fact that Chávez hasn't succeeded in improving the economic lot of the average Venezuelan is almost invariably blamed on the opposition, who "won't let the president do his job".

The whole subject of Venezuelan politics depresses me. The opposition is certainly more politically and economically savvy than Chávez and his MVR-istas, but they're no more trustworthy and no less corrupt than the current administration. With me, it's more a case of wanting to go back to the devil Venezuela knew before... because there's no knowing what this new devil may do next.

In all honesty, I feel that I'm incredibly lucky to have the option of not living in Venezuela.



[Edited 2004-08-16 18:02:31]


Cada loco con su tema...
User currently offlineLHSebi From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 1049 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1460 times:

In all honesty, I feel that I'm incredibly lucky to have the option of not living in Venezuela.

Amen to that! My family and I were very lucky that we left at the time we did, just before things really started to mess up!

Doesn't it strike you as a strange coincidence, that the number of votes needed to get rid of him was 3.76 million, and the "preliminary" votes were 3,576,517...mighty close, or?

Sebastian



I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
User currently offlineUssherd From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 328 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1460 times:

Doesn't it strike you as a strange coincidence, that the number of votes needed to get rid of him was 3.76 million, and the "preliminary" votes were 3,576,517...mighty close, or?

Very peculiar indeed!

... I'll be on the phone with my family tonight, to hear the news from the battle front, so to speak.



Cada loco con su tema...
User currently offlineLHSebi From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 1049 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1451 times:

Please let me (us) know if there is anything! Unfortunately (well, fortunately, but you know...) I don't have any close relatives there at the moment that can report! Thanks!

Sebastian



I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1443 times:

I can tell you that the richer are poorer, the middle are poorer, and the poor are poorer since Chavez, the only one that is richer is the Military, they are the new ELITE of the Country. Family in Venezuela says everybody is talking about Fraud in Venezuela

User currently offlineSchoenorama From Spain, joined Apr 2001, 2440 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1432 times:

I've lived in Caracas for some time, although not as long as others on this board, but I haven't experienced the 'dictatorial regime' others seem to be talking about.


Luisca:

"He is a Dictator, he has ordered military to SHOOT protesters."

First, he's been democratically elected a couple of times. Second, any PROOF of him shooting protesters?

"He has turned Venezuela into a Castro Type Communist dictatorship"

Again, he won the democratical elections several times. Rather than supporting the rich and richer, he supports the Poor and Poorer. That's not Communism, Luisca. You might not like it, that doesn't mean that it necessarily is Communism!

"I have Family in Venezuela, they are not "rich elite" but they think this man is INSANE"

I wonder what your family thinks about you...

"And news over here is calling it a Fraud."

Let me guess.... Fox News?


B757300:

"It is so nice to see the communists and socialists on this site come out and support a murderous dictator. "

... and it is so nice to see the ultra-rightwing on this site call every democratically elected and re-elected president a murderous dictator (without providing any credible link) for the mere fact that he or she doesn't like him.



Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1430 times:

"And news over here is calling it a Fraud."

Let me guess.... Fox News?



Telemetro, RPC, TVN, all local news in Panama.

He may be elected, but he does not have popular leadership NOW, he is giving the military all the power of the country. He is NOT helping the Poor. I have no problem with socialist Presidents, LULA for example, he is a great leader, I may not believe his Ideology, but I respect him, becouse he does not Impose his beliefs and he Is working for EVERYBODY.

Chavez is doing the same thing to Venezuela that Torrijos did to Panama, Torrijos preceded Noriega in Panama, he gave the military so much power that they had everything and people had nothing. I had to flee Panama in 1989 becouse of Noriega so dont you ever DARE say that I do not know what I am talking about. Have you ever lived in a dictatorship? I was SHOT at at age 4!. We were spayed with acid water, We were held at gunpoint when we were eating in a restaurant by the military, we had to be evacuated by the US military in 1989 and move to Grand Cayman, we lost EVERYTHING. We later moved to the US and lived their for a few years. We came back to Panama and in just 14 years of democracy the differance is amaizing.

[Edited 2004-08-16 19:34:11]

User currently offlineJuanr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1427 times:

This is getting mad, a left wing dictator in Venezuela while right here in Colombia we are on our way to a right wing civil dictatorial regime!!


Juan
SKBO


User currently offlineLHSebi From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 1049 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1421 times:

Schoenorama,
By the frankly quite ignorant comments you made there, I can only assume you lived there back before Chavez became what he is today. Unless you have been there to witness it, don't say such things...

Sebastian

P.S. Luisca, sorry to hear about your past. I hope it's better now!  Smile



I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1418 times:

It is so nice to see the communists and socialists on this site come out and support a murderous dictator. I'll say one thing for the left and that is they're consistent in who they support.

So now the truth comes out, B757300 only supports democracy when he thinks its the right result.


User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1416 times:

Thanks sebastian, It is much better, we came back and started a company with the compensation we got. one more thing, I just saw that Carter said that he believed that the results were correct, but I have to say one thing about that man. He signed back in 1978 the Canal Treaty, he signed it with Torrijos, if he was the true humanitarian he claims to be he wouldnt have signed this treaty with a brutal dictator, giving him more power than he already had. I have absolutly no respect for the man becouse of this.

User currently offlineLHSebi From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 1049 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1414 times:

Thats good to hear.

As for Carter, I am also following the happenings on eluniversal.com, and apparently there are people that don't trust the results. And people that are involved in the counting. They are questioning the method of counting the votes. Apparently, it could be that they didn't actually use the machines which were earlier proven to be unmanipulable (supposedly). http://www.eluniversal.com/

Sebastian



I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 20, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1405 times:

See, this is the way to do it. If the people of Venezuela did not want him as their elected leader, they'd have booted him. But still, outsiders will cry foul and demand that he go.

The international monitors haven´t complained as of now...

Which monitors Klaus? The same ones that praised the Florida polls as being free and fair?


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6574 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1396 times:
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Mr. Carter has endorsed the election result. Many may not be happy with that crazy person in power, but for the forseable future seems like Venezula is stuck with him.


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineSOUTHAMERICA From Colombia, joined Dec 2003, 2497 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1391 times:

while right here in Colombia we are on our way to a right wing civil dictatorial regime!!

With which the inmense majority of the country is absolutely happy and support (except of course those politicians who won't see their personal interests satisfied with the re-election, and two or three dumbasses who don't have the foggiest idea of what their saying).

Slight difference huh?


SOUTHAMERICA


User currently offlineJuanr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1370 times:

Slight difference huh?

Not at all, a true democratic regime do not censor their oponents opinion as it is happening on both Colombia and Venezuela. In our country perhaps the president has a lot of support in larger areas of the people, however calling everyone who disagrees with the goverment "narco-terrorist" is not too democratic, is it?

Perhaps some rich people can now travel through our highways to their farms in the lower lands but it takes more than that to provide us with real peace, a subject in which our current goverment is not going well, not even talk about the monologue that they have started with the paramilitary groups.

Also not to mention that from day 1 the president started an agressive political and publicitary campain and that he wants to rule the country as it was his own farm.

Do I need to say more?

But to stay in the topic, my point was to state that we are facing a dark future in this region with a right wing Colombia that support 100% the US and a left wing Venezuela that provides support to COlombian guerrillas.

God help us.

Juan
SKBO




User currently offlineSOUTHAMERICA From Colombia, joined Dec 2003, 2497 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1358 times:

Not at all, a true democratic regime do not censor their oponents opinion as it is happening on both Colombia and Venezuela.

And that's why the press (who is almost always biased) shows equally those who support the government, and those who don't, as well as the different polls and surveys that are constantly done all throughout the country.

Perhaps some rich people can now travel through our highways to their farms in the lower lands

Are you kidding me? Tell me (in millions) how many people has travelled by roads each high-season since Uribe is leading the country. Could you do that with your buddy Pastrana? Yeah, but at three blocks from your house you would already be kidnapped while Pastrana was travelling to Madrid to buy a dress for his wife.


but it takes more than that to provide us with real peace, a subject in which our current goverment is not going well

Of course, impossible that you were so high in the air to believe that in 2 years we would end a 40 year deep conflict. You know that it's impossible, everybody knows that, that's why the inmense majority of the people is supporting the decision to give him the time he needs.


Also not to mention that from day 1 the president started an agressive political and publicitary campain and that he wants to rule the country as it was his own farm.

Again, if this farm-administration has given better results than the little-delicate-velvet-cushin administration of Pastrana, and if finally someone has had the pants and balls to look to the guerillas straight to the eyes, then way to go !

Look, don't try to make-up what reallity shows, and don't try to make more dramatic the few mistakes that the administration has. Go walking to downtown Bogota and ask many people of different social conditions what they think of the government (specifically the president) and you'll see what the answers are. People have faith, and you know it, maybe your obsessive biasment and hatred towards certain people does not allow you to see the obvious...

And as many have said, if this is a dictatorial regime, well long live dictatorial regimes 'cause democratic administrations had done nothing to make us live better.


SOUTHAMERICA


25 Juanr : You are right, God Help Us since it is true that te majority of the people in this country is as blind as you Juan SKBO
26 Bruno : It seems like bashing the United States is a sure way to win elections in other countries. This was never the case before. Bush has certainly figured
27 Post contains links Schoenorama : LHSebi: Ignorant comments? I started my posts with admitting I have not lived as long in Venezuela as other apparently have. You call that ignorant? Y
28 Post contains images SOUTHAMERICA : You are right The same as saying = I have no other arguments to support my obsessively biased ideas. And the worst part of it is when you remember tha
29 Juanr : Reply 25: long live dictatorial regimes 'cause democratic administrations had done nothing to make us live better. Reply 29: People's voice is God's
30 SOUTHAMERICA : Contradiction??? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, go learn some English first and then come and see that it was a totally ironic comment (the 2nd). Als
31 Juanr : Also, don't cut the sentences when you quote something, that is not right and you know it. And....what have you just done? Reply 23 With which the inm
32 LHSebi : Schoenorama, Yes, ignorant comments. You state that you haven't lived in Venezuela for a long time which is (obviously) not the part I call ignorant.
33 TBCITDG : But at the end fo the day, didn't the people of Venezuela put Chavez in power? So far the international observers have indicated that there was no "co
34 Post contains images SOUTHAMERICA : And....what have you just done? Cut meaning supreme sentence parts, not divide, which is acceptable to make specifications. I am getting tired of you
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