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Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return  
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 58
Posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1339 times:

This article is 3 weeks old and I wish I had found it sooner, but it is fantastic and it shows that there is sign of hope and peace in the Middle East even when things right now are very bad.

Israeli activists, intellectuals recognize the right of return
Document submitted 'for truth and reconciliation'

Signatories include Prof. Anat Biletzki, Andre Draznin, Haim Hanegbi, Yehudith Harel, Michel (Micado) Warschawski and Oren Medicks

Thursday, July 29, 2004

Israel, 2004, is a state on the road to nowhere. Fifty-six years after its establishment - notwithstanding its many achievements in agriculture, science and technology, and albeit a great regional military power, armed with doomsday weapons - many of its citizens are heartsick with existential worry and fear for their future.

Since its foundation Israel has lived by its sword. An incessant succession of "retaliations," military operations and wars has become the life-support drug of Israel's Jews. And now, almost four years after the beginning of the second Palestinian intifada, Israel is up to its neck in the mire of occupation and oppression, while it goes on extending the settlements and multiplying the outposts, repeating to itself ad nauseam that "we have no partner for peace."

Ten years after the Oslo Accords, we are living in a benighted colonial reality - in the heart of darkness. Thirty-seven years after Israel conquered the last of the Palestinian territories in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, over three and a half million Palestinians under its rule are penned up in their towns and villages. The term "Palestinian State" - which for years embodied the peace option - is being used by many Israeli politicians as a mirage phrase, a spin on the reality of occupation: "In the future," they whisper with a knowing wink, "the Palestinian entity in the Territories may be called a 'state.'" And meanwhile Israel is amplifying the devastation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, as if determined to pulverize the Palestinian people to dust.

In the face of the large Israeli camp of supporters of the separation walls - those, both right and left, who are terrified by the demons of demography, constantly counting the populace to find out how many Jews and Arabs are born and die every week, how many Jews and Arabs live in the entire country and in each of its districts every month - it is vital to pose an alternative outlook, based on the following principles:

Coexistence of the peoples of this country, based on mutual recognition, equal partnership and implementation of historical justice.

We are united in a critique of Zionism, based as it is on refusal to acknowledge the indigenous people of this country and on denial of their rights, on dispossession of their lands, and on adoption of separation as a fundamental principle and way of life. Adding insult to injury, Israel persists in its refusal to bear any responsibility for its deeds, from the expulsion of the majority of Palestinians from their homeland more than half a century ago, to the present erection of ghetto walls around the remaining Palestinians in the towns and villages of the West Bank. Thus, wherever Jew and Arab stand together or face each other, a boundary is drawn between them, to separate and distinguish between the blessed and the cursed.

We are united in the recognition that this country belongs to all its sons and daughters - citizens and residents, both present and absentees (the uprooted Palestinian citizens of Israel in 1948 ) - with no discrimination on personal or communal grounds, irrespective of citizenship or nationality, religion, culture, ethnicity or gender. Thus we demand the immediate annulment of all laws, regulations and practices that discriminate between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel, and the dissolution of all institutions, organizations and authorities based on such laws, regulations and practices.

We are united in the belief that peace and reconciliation are contingent on Israel's recognition of its responsibility for the injustices done to the indigenous people, the Palestinians, and on willingness to redress them. Recognition of the right of return follows from our principles. Redressing the continued injustice inflicted on the Palestinian refugees, generation after generation, is a necessary condition both for reconciliation with the Palestinian people, as for the spiritual healing of ourselves, Israeli Jews. Only thus shall we stop being plagued by the past's demons and damnations and make ourselves at home in our common homeland.



Read the rest of the article here:
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=15&article_id=6707

It is people like these that can bring peace to the region. We all have to make sacrifices. We have to accept Israel's right to exist and the Israeli people's right to exist on this land and Israel needs to recognize the right of return for the Palestinian refugees.


"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21463 posts, RR: 53
Reply 1, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1328 times:

Voices like these (and their necessary counterparts on the palestinian side) are indeed the only source of hope as far as I can see.

Not so much for advocating particular decisions in policy, but in recognizing the humanity of the "opposing" side.

It is possible. And it is also necessary.

Naivity wouldn´t help anyone. But cynicism is just as naive - merely in the other direction.


User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2256 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1314 times:

Nothing new here. Uri Avnery stated same opinions decades ago.


2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineKl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5141 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1302 times:

Nothing new,

Jews wanted peace since the beginning, actually they never wanted war... It's the Palestinians who refused it over and over again. And I can't see them making a normal statement soon, looking at the trouble they have in their own 'white house' I'm afraid for the day Arafat dies, and at the same time looking forward to it. It's strange but it doesn't seem to change the problem.
I am still convinced that Arafat should have been arrested for mass murder of innocent civilians.

KL911


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21463 posts, RR: 53
Reply 4, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1297 times:

Kl911: Jews wanted peace since the beginning, actually they never wanted war... It's the Palestinians who refused it over and over again.

"Now give us your land and move away, peacefully, please!"  Insane

That´s not how this works.

Without acknowledging each other´s real grievances there can´t be any lasting peace.


User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1286 times:

Klaus, I respect your intentions and your quest for peace. However, there is absolutely no proof that Arabs are willing to accept an independent Jewish state. Even those Arabs who "accept" Israel's right to exist only do so on on the premise that the Jews will allow millions of Palestinians to return, thus ending the Jewish majority and destroying the state of Israel as we know it. In Jews/Israelis/Zionists opinion, that is just as bad as trying to militarily destroy Israel.

You always talk about both sides recognizing each other and such. It is not an acceptable plan for Palestinians to return to Israel. So what do you propse? Do you feel that Arabs will EVER accept an independent Jewish state without the right of return? Because I don't. And there is no peace to be made with an enemy who seeks nothing less than the death of your state.

What would be your plan for peace, Klaus?


User currently offlineKl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5141 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1281 times:

We all talk about return, but don't forget that the most Palestinians come from Jordan, and not from Israel. That Jordan doesn't want them back is also a big problem. It's actually one of the 'forgotten' pages of history.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_jordan_renounce_claims.php

Jordan maintained an uneasy relationship with its Palestinians, now the majority east of the Jordan. The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) constantly incited the Palestinians against Jordan even though Jordan gave them citizenship and in general treated them better than any other Arab land. By 1970 the PLO became such a threat to Jordan, and an international embarassment for Jordan because of their terrorism, that King Hussein drove them out of Jordan.


User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1278 times:

It will be interesting to see the role Jordan has when Israel completes the fence and finishes dealing with the Palestinians. Will the Jordanians be willing to accept them and make them part of Jordan, or will they be a foreign entity?

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21463 posts, RR: 53
Reply 8, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1278 times:

Starting every sentence by saying that the "other side" is evil and untrustworthy to begin with surely won´t get you anywhere.

a) The fanatics must be pushed out of the way on both sides. The only way to do that is to build actual trust between the two populations. Initiatives like the one above are necessary, but only a first step to achieve that. Of course, they can´t be limited to one side.

b) There needs to be an actual recognition of the other´s situation and interests, as well as of one´s own problematic positions. Without at least a basic willingness to put everything on the table it won´t work.

c) Both sides need to find a reasonable path to a peaceful coexistence. Ideological extreme demands are unachievable and need to be dropped on both sides.

d) I personally would prefer the notion of a free, united and above all secular state for all inhabitants of the area. But if both sides insist on a "racially", culturally or religiously "pure" institution for each larger group (I don´t see that anybody is thinking about the minorities in all this!), then the optimum will be some sort of apartheid just like today, merely on a somewhat less hostile basis and in defined borders. Still, the question of the expatriates needs some resolution, and there will have to be compensation agreements on various levels.


I know that listing the necessary steps is a lot easier than actually making them. But I don´t think there can be any doubt that the current situation is untenable and can only be described as one gigantic disgraceful failure for all involved (and that includes the external forces as well).


User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2256 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1268 times:

the notion of a free, united and above all secular state for all inhabitants of the area

It is as feasible as EU becoming a one , united state with one government, one economy , one nation. Gimme a break.



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineKl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5141 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1258 times:

I love the modern times... a German participating in this discussion..  Laugh out loud

User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1257 times:

Even in pure theory, IMHO, your d/ would be an impossible marmelade Klaus.

I have two questions:
* are the "Palestinian Territories" (Gaza+WB) a viable economic entity ? (even if the event that the colonies would be moved)
* could the same PT accept more inhabitants than they already have (taking the demographic factor into consideration) ?


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21463 posts, RR: 53
Reply 12, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1255 times:

LY7E7: It is as feasible as EU becoming a one , united state with one government, one economy , one nation. Gimme a break.

Here you go: [BREAK]

Considering that we´ve gone from bitter enemies to not just allies but partners in the EU, we´ve already covered the toughest 95% of that distance. Whether the remaining 5% would make sense is another question, but there´s no urgency to that.

Sure, we don´t have an ongoing occupation to deal with, but in terms of positive imagination and constructive energy there isn´t anything more daring and successful than the EU integration on the political scene world wide.

I´d love to see a little more of these qualities in the middle east...


User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1249 times:

Klaus, one large secular state is simply not feasable. It sounds all nice on paper but it will never happen nor is it practical. Why bothere discussing it?

That is not the best solution; Heck, even the UN acknowledged 60 years ago that partition was the best way to go. The Palestinians need their own state.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21463 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1245 times:

Rjpieces: Klaus, one large secular state is simply not feasable. It sounds all nice on paper but it will never happen nor is it practical. Why bothere discussing it?

I don´t say it´s easy to achieve - but by your standard of limited imagination, Germany and France would still have to be at war, instead of considering a shared citizenship in the future...

Things can change, people can change, perspectives can change. But it´ll never be the timid, the hateful or the resigned people who will achieve it.


Rjpieces: That is not the best solution; Heck, even the UN acknowledged 60 years ago that partition was the best way to go. The Palestinians need their own state.

And the present situation of Israel would be what? A confirmation of that earlier belief? Or the confirmation of its failure?


User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1238 times:

I don´t say it´s easy to achieve - but by your standard of limited imagination, Germany and France would still have to be at war, instead of considering a shared citizenship in the future...

Totally different situation. Unfortunately, not many comparisons work with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

And I suppose anything can be achieved--A Native American state could be carved out. Things can change, people can change, perspectives can change. But it´ll never be the timid, the hateful or the resigned people who will achieve it.

Your argument doesn't always work.

You do realize that you are asking Israel to give up everything it has worked for in the past 60 years? All the fighting, all the death would have been for nothing. And I also hope you see the lunacy and idiocy of giving up your country in order to facilitate "peace"?

Your plan is not an option; most Israelis discred it, as they have for years. Peace can be achieved with two seperate states.

And the present situation of Israel would be what? A confirmation of that earlier belief? Or the confirmation of its failure?

200% better off than the Palestinians, and the rest of the Arab world. Don't hate on Israel because they were able to thrive despite being attacked several times.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16280 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1234 times:

Now if only some Arab activists would recognize Jewish right of return to the Arab countries they fled from, then Arab societies would be on the same high moral ground as Israeli society.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineKl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5141 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1231 times:

Yyz717,

A very good point! I'm sure we'll work it out one day.

There's only one thing that bothers me... : Israelis arrive in 1945 ( and way before as well ) with nothing, and still they build an important economy, While there Arab neighbours smoke their stuff, drink coffee and do nothing. Why didn't the Arabs do more to increase their economic power? Even now you see schoolkids running on the streets throwing stones etc etc. Go to school boys! If kids already don't go to school, how can they ever have a good economy? The parents make them fight because they still believe they can drive the Israelis ( Who have been living there for thousands of years) into the sea!! Pfff


User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1229 times:

Surprised this hasn't turned into a flame war yet.....KL911, Arab members will tell you that Israel's accomplishments are a direct result of US Aid. Of course this is bullsh*t as the US didn't start giving serious aid to Israel until 1973, and still gives mostly military aid.

Now if only some Arab activists would recognize Jewish right of return to the Arab countries they fled from, then Arab societies would be on the same high moral ground as Israeli society.

Indeed. But why would they ever go back to countries they were persecuted in? That is why a Jewish Israel is essential. It is one of the few places that Jews can live totally peacefully in. The state Klaus calls for would result in many Jews dying; Frankly, coming from a German it is almost offensive.


User currently offlineJutes85 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1218 times:

Even now you see schoolkids running on the streets throwing stones etc etc. Go to school boys! If kids already don't go to school, how can they ever have a good economy?

They can't go to school, the IDF and the Imperialist Israeli state destroyed them.

Signed,
BA, Horus, QR332.


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1209 times:

Klaus,

Beautifully said on all points!

Kl911,

Jews wanted peace since the beginning, actually they never wanted war...

They wanted peace with the Arabs off of their land.

It's the Palestinians who refused it over and over again.

Really? Let's see....who are the refugees again? The Jews or the Palestinians?

And I can't see them making a normal statement soon, looking at the trouble they have in their own 'white house' I'm afraid for the day Arafat dies, and at the same time looking forward to it. It's strange but it doesn't seem to change the problem.

Most Palestinians hardly love Arafat. He's created more trouble for the Palestinians than good. He is the reason why their are major problems between the Arab governments and the Palestinian refugees.

I am still convinced that Arafat should have been arrested for mass murder of innocent civilians.

And the exact same thing can be said about Sharon.

Hmm...Sabra and Chatila massacre in Lebanon comes to mind. An attack which resulted in 800 Palestinian deaths. A massacre carried out Elie Hobeika, leader of the Lebanese Forces militia, sponsored and supported by Sharon!

Rjpieces,

However, there is absolutely no proof that Arabs are willing to accept an independent Jewish state.

Which is exactly why Israel will have to become a secular state and not a Jewish one.

Even those Arabs who "accept" Israel's right to exist only do so on on the premise that the Jews will allow millions of Palestinians to return

Isn't that what this thread is about? Right of return?

thus ending the Jewish majority and destroying the state of Israel as we know it.

Sorry, no, it will neither end the Jewish majority nor destroy Israel. The Palestinians would become somewhere around 40% of the population and the land would still be called Israel and those Palestinians would have Israeli citizenship.

In Jews/Israelis/Zionists opinion, that is just as bad as trying to militarily destroy Israel.

ROFL! Can you explain to me how accepting the right of return is just as bad as militarily destroying Israel when absolutely no force is being used? When absolutely nobody is being forced to live or have their lives threatened?

It is not an acceptable plan for Palestinians to return to Israel.

How is it not acceptable for the indigenous population to have the right to return to their lands? Oh yeah..it will "destroy Israel" right Rjpieces?

Do you feel that Arabs will EVER accept an independent Jewish state without the right of return?

No they will not.

Because I don't.

Good, you learned something.

And there is no peace to be made with an enemy who seeks nothing less than the death of your state.

Not death, we seek justice for the Palestinian people by giving them the right to return to their lands.

KL911,

We all talk about return, but don't forget that the most Palestinians come from Jordan, and not from Israel.

This is entirely false. First of all, the country of Israel did not come into existence until 1948. Throughout history, Jordan has been extremely sparsely populated with nothing but some bedouin tribes. The area was called TransJordan meaning the area across the Jordan River.

On the other hand, in 1900, Palestine had a population of 750,000. At the time, that was a high number.

Jordan maintained an uneasy relationship with its Palestinians, now the majority east of the Jordan. The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) constantly incited the Palestinians against Jordan even though Jordan gave them citizenship and in general treated them better than any other Arab land. By 1970 the PLO became such a threat to Jordan, and an international embarassment for Jordan because of their terrorism, that King Hussein drove them out of Jordan.

That was entirely Arafat's fault. Arafat was acting as if he had his own little country in Jordan and was controling certain areas for himself. He is responsible for the trouble between the Palestinians and Jordan and in general, the Palestinians and all the Arab countries.

I don't think King Hussein handled the situation properly as he killed thousands of Palestinians in the process, but the responsibility is that of Arafat.

Rjpieces,

Will the Jordanians be willing to accept them and make them part of Jordan, or will they be a foreign entity?

Sorry, but Jordan is not going to get back the West Bank. The Palestinians will not let it and the world will not let it. West Bank and Gaza once free of Israeli rule will become a Palestinian state.

Klaus, one large secular state is simply not feasable.

Yes it is, we believe it is because it was a secular before Israel came to exist.

That is not the best solution

It is the only solution.

Heck, even the UN acknowledged 60 years ago that partition was the best way to go. The Palestinians need their own state.

And the Arabs rejected it because they did not want to give up 56% of their land to accomodate Jewish immigrants. You simply cannot partition the land and satisfy both sides. The Palestinians were mixed all over. The UN partition plan would have caused the Palestinians on the Jewish side to immigrate to the Palestinian side. Something we don't want.

Not to mention that they were giving the majority of the land to the minority.

You do realize that you are asking Israel to give up everything it has worked for in the past 60 years?

Ummm....care to explain how the right of return will mean giving up everything they worked for in the past 60 years?

And I also hope you see the lunacy and idiocy of giving up your country in order to facilitate "peace"?

They give citizenship to anybody that is Jew. Yet they deny citizenship to the indigenous population. That is lunacy. The fact that they are giving citizenship to Ethiopians just because they are Jews but deny citizenship to the indigenous population is really frustrating.

They would not be giving up their country by allowing right of return.

Nobody is being made to leave.

200% better off than the Palestinians, and the rest of the Arab world. Don't hate on Israel because they were able to thrive despite being attacked several times.

Thrive because of the support they had from the world.

Yyz717,

Now if only some Arab activists would recognize Jewish right of return to the Arab countries they fled from, then Arab societies would be on the same high moral ground as Israeli society.

And I would fully support such an initiative. Please keep in mind though that Arab Jews were not forcefully kicked out. During the 40s, they experienced massive discrimination, but there were never any moves to expell the Arab Jews. They left by choice. By the way, the Arabs tried to convince the Arab Jews to not leave, especially Syria. As you know, the Arabs were trying to cut down on the Jewish immigration to Israel as much as they can to prevent the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine. They left because they were encouraged by the Zionists to leave, often times given great incentives. They were promised nice financial packages.

About the return of Arab Jews to the Arab countries, this could be made a requirement as part of the two-way Israeli/Palestinian solution. I would fully support it.

Also please keep in mind that there still are Jews in Arab countries, not all of them left. Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria all have descently sized Jewish populations. I know of the more than 15 million Lebanese in the world, 5,000 are Lebanese Jews. These are Jews who decided to retain their Lebanese citizenship and not become Israeli citizens despite Israel's many attempts during the civil war to lure the Lebanese Jews to Israel.

Kl911,

Israelis arrive in 1945 ( and way before as well ) with nothing, and still they build an important economy

The difference is the Israelis were given assistance by not just the US at the time, but the entire western world. They helped the Israelis build up their country and helped them become industrialized. A luxury the Arabs never had.

While there Arab neighbours smoke their stuff, drink coffee and do nothing. Why didn't the Arabs do more to increase their economic power?

I agree that this is our fault and we could be improving ourselves, but this has nothing to do with Israel/Palestine.

This argument can also be said about many countries in the world. The fact is the Arab world is not the worst off in the world, their are countries that are far worse off when it comes to economy and poverty.

Even now you see schoolkids running on the streets throwing stones etc etc.

What do you want them to throw?

If kids already don't go to school, how can they ever have a good economy?

Many kids do go to school. Lately there have been a lot of cheap schools set up in the Arab world and even public schools (meaning you don't pay for them). Those who don't go to school don't go because they can't afford it.

There is poverty everywhere in the world. Not just in the Arab world.

The parents make them fight because they still believe they can drive the Israelis ( Who have been living there for thousands of years) into the sea!!

Last time I checked, that was only desperate Palestinian refugees in Gaza and West Bank. Yes, there have been Jews living in this land for thousands of years. But they'v always been a minority. In the year 1900, they were less 10% of the population.

Oh and these 10% are not called Israelis. They are called Arab Jews.

Rjpieces,

Arab members will tell you that Israel's accomplishments are a direct result of US Aid. Of course this is bullsh*t as the US didn't start giving serious aid to Israel until 1973, and still gives mostly military aid.

Israel has been recieving aid from the western world since its creation. They recieved military aid (massive military aid), financial aid, and infrastructure aid. The western countries helped Israel start itself up and help it develop its industries. A luxury the Arab world has never experienced.

During the early years of Israel, France and the UK were probably the biggest contributers in helping Israel, I think more than the US at the time. For France, this changed greatly when De Gaulle came into power.

Speaking of France, this is why the majority of Israel's air force during the 50's and 60's were French made. Israel was one of the biggest operators of the Dassault Mirage fighter. Israel and France also together developped their nuclear arsenal.

Regarding the US aid, since the late 70's, the US aid has become financial aid which Israel uses to buy military equipment and also develop itself. Oh, and before you use the "Egypt gets $1.2 billion in aid, but look at their state!" argument, let me tell you why.

Egypt has a population of 76 million people and is one of the fastest growing populations. Israel is a tiny country with 6 million people. You are talking about less than half the aid being distributed to more than ten times the population to a country 50 times as large. Not to mention that Egypt cannot as freely spend its financial aid as Israel can.

But why would they ever go back to countries they were persecuted in?

The point is they would be given the option. I don't think many Palestinians would want to go back to Israel on the otherhand. Most if they were given the option will probably go to West Bank/Gaza, the Palestinian state.

The state Klaus calls for would result in many Jews dying

LOL!

Frankly, coming from a German it is almost offensive.

And this statement of yours is offensive to Germans and Germany.

I'm off to sleep.



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineJutes85 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1186 times:

Israel has been recieving aid from the western world since its creation. They recieved military aid (massive military aid), financial aid, and infrastructure aid. The western countries helped Israel start itself up and help it develop its industries. A luxury the Arab world has never experienced.

Now thats funny. I guess you never heard of the BILLIONS that the Arabs are making off the oil fields? What Israel is receiving is chump change, compared to what the Arab world is worth. I guess Arabs never learned to share or give to those less fortunate, shame really.

The difference is the Israelis were given assistance by not just the US at the time, but the entire western world. They helped the Israelis build up their country and helped them become industrialized. A luxury the Arabs never had.

 Nuts  Nuts

The Arabs were granted a huge gift - Oil, yet I see huge poverty rates in the richest region in the world, that's ludicrous! Just imagine if all the major Oil fields were in the US, the poverty in the country would be almost non-existent.!


User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1184 times:

Klaus,Beautifully said on all points!

Klaus, the fact that someone who deeply despises Israel as much as he does, agrees with you should be a sign......


Most Palestinians hardly love Arafat. He's created more trouble for the Palestinians than good. He is the reason why their are major problems between the Arab governments and the Palestinian refugees.

Let them replace him, or overthrow him, if they hate him so much..........


Me: However, there is absolutely no proof that Arabs are willing to accept an independent Jewish state.

BA:Which is exactly why Israel will have to become a secular state and not a Jewish one.


Thank you for confirming that Arabs will never accept an independent Israel.

ROFL! Can you explain to me how accepting the right of return is just as bad as militarily destroying Israel when absolutely no force is being used? When absolutely nobody is being forced to live or have their lives threatened?

Means are different, but the ends are the same.

Me:Do you feel that Arabs will EVER accept an independent Jewish state without the right of return?

BA:No they will not.


And that is exactly why Israel is building a security fence and turning its back on the Palestinians. See how you like it then. What exactly do you think is going to happen once Israel completes the fence and pulls out of the GS and some WB settlements? Please answer that.

Not death, we seek justice for the Palestinian people by giving them the right to return to their lands.

At the expense of the Jewish state.

Yes it is, we believe it is because it was a secular before Israel came to exist.

It wasn't anything before Israel came to exist. It was a barren wasteland. And Jews were at the mercy of Arabs then, just as they were in Arab lands.

It is the only solution.

As I've said, Israel has more or less given up hope of peace with its neighbors. That is why they are building a fence and being done with you lunatics. IMO, they should have done this 20 years ago.

Please keep in mind though that Arab Jews were not forcefully kicked out.

How fast you are to say Jews weren't kicked out of Arab countries; and yet you insist Jews kicked Arabs out of Israel.....

Also please keep in mind that there still are Jews in Arab countries, not all of them left. Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria all have descently sized Jewish populations. I know of the more than 15 million Lebanese in the world, 5,000 are Lebanese Jews. These are Jews who decided to retain their Lebanese citizenship and not become Israeli citizens despite Israel's many attempts during the civil war to lure the Lebanese Jews to Israel.

LOL. Syria has about 250; Egypt less than 100; Lebanon also less than 100. Compare that to 20,000 in 1948.

The difference is the Israelis were given assistance by not just the US at the time, but the entire western world. They helped the Israelis build up their country and helped them become industrialized. A luxury the Arabs never had.

That is your excuse for the pathetic state of the Arab world?

I agree that this is our fault and we could be improving ourselves, but this has nothing to do with Israel/Palestine.

Improve yourselves first, then come talk about the Palestinians.

The point is they would be given the option. I don't think many Palestinians would want to go back to Israel on the otherhand. Most if they were given the option will probably go to West Bank/Gaza, the Palestinian state.

They can go back to the West Bank/Gaza. Once Israel pulls out, they can but**ck themselves allday for all Israel cares.

And this statement of yours is offensive to Germans and Germany.

Well unfortunately for Germans their fathers and grandfathers committed the Holocaust. Germans of today have a moral obligation to help Israel in every way possible--And they have been absolutely amazing for the most part.

I do not think Klaus wishes any harm to Jews; I think he is either ignorant to, or ignoring, the fact that the right of return would destroy the Israel of the past 60 years. The same Israel that every German has an obligation to protect.


User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2256 posts, RR: 19
Reply 23, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1174 times:

Klaus,

My real point was that no Spaniard will ever live under Swedish/German/French (or vice versa) government when it will have to decide how things are run in Madrid and Barcelona. Every European country, despite the European Union, keeps its own national issues to itself and always will. Indeed , current situation in the EU is very nice, especially considering a thousands years long history of bloody wars and hatred on the continent. Germany will always remain a German speaking country run by a vast German majority, speaking German and learning Goethe and Schiller before Shakespeare and Flaubert. Same valid for any other member of the EU. Same is valid for Israel and Palestine. We may live peacefully side be side one day, but we'll never be a one multinational country.



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 34
Reply 24, posted (10 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1164 times:

LY7E7 you are mistaken, both on the EU subject and even on the global scale. I am confident you are young enough to see what the EU will become in 4 or 5 decades, your grandson might see the same on a worldwide scale.

The notion of country, at least in Europe, as people have been teached and used to stick to is eroding, and faster that many would have thought.
If one looks at the most socially developed nations, basically NW Europe, you might see that people are less likely to identify themselves with "nationalistic" milestones and are the most likely to espouse international ideas and values.
If a referendum took place asking the people if they are prepared to be governed by a competent albeit non-national body, I think you should be extremely surprised.

The EU has been very keen to promote and support regions over nations.
It says something that people are free to choose where to study, work and live (and vote) and still have exactly the same rights everywhere.
This was made possible by the disappearance of differentiating elements, among them the link between state and religion and army conscription.

Most of us already understand and have adopted the idea that we are part of a same large family. Do not be surprised if people ask "European" when you ask for their identity.

Almost one century ago, a Belgian named Henri La Fontaine (Nobel peace prize) wrote "The great solution: Magnissima Carta". Truly visionary !


25 LY7E7 : Iakobos, I have a very strong affection to the view of the unification as you have presented it. The vision of "One World" (I just take the idea of th
26 Rjpieces : Hell yes. Most were by fear and Jewish Zionist terrorist groups. Proof please. Brainwashing? You are operating under the assumption that Israel is fun
27 MD11Engineer : LY7E7, Two Southafrican colleagues, who´ve been working for IAI and IMI in Tel Aviv told me that there is an increasing number of Jewish/Arab marriag
28 LY7E7 : Jan, For the Jews it mainly depends on the origins. Ironically Jewish families with roots in Arab countries tend not to accept such marriages. There h
29 Post contains images MD11Engineer : Thanks for the answer, Rudy, I´ve got a very good friend in Berlin, who is a Sephard Jew from Aserbeidjan. Her children (she was married to a guy fro
30 Post contains images LY7E7 : Jan, The relations between the Sephardic and Ashkenaz Jews are an interesting issue by itself. Nowadays, especially in Israel the situation is better
31 MD11Engineer : LY7E7, Unfortunately I don´t hand out phone numbers... :-( BTW, Her mother is reallly beautifull as well, in her mid 40s... It seems that the mostly
32 Post contains links Rjpieces : I found this site today. It gives a fantastic history of the Arab/Palestinian-Israeli conflict..... http://masada2000.org/historical.html
33 Qr332 : Genius QR. I ask you why politicians are pro-Israeli and you answer "because they are pro-Israeli". Seems somebody was dropped on the head alright. Wo
34 Rjpieces : The hell does that have to do with this thread? I didn't even participate. Yep, I do think you were dropped on the head alright. Do you always avoid t
35 Post contains links Horus : Interesting article I read in Yahoo today: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&ncid=721&e=1&u=/nm/20040824/wl_nm/mideast_dc Horus
36 Rjpieces : Doesn't really matter anymore Horus. Israel will be out of most of the WB and GS, with a fence seperating the Israelis and the Palestinians soon enoug
37 Jutes85 : The Palistinians will find something else to bitch about.
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