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Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage  
User currently offline7LBAC111 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 2566 posts, RR: 35
Posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3993 times:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3616868.stm

At least 200 pupils and some parents and teachers are being held hostage in southern Russia after a school was seized by masked and armed attackers.
At least 17 men and women, some wearing explosive belts, entered the school in Beslan, North Ossetia, officials said.

They are believed to have laid mines and trip wires, threatening to blow up the school if stormed by police. An Islamist group, calling itself the Islambouli Brigades, claimed responsibility and described the attack as "part of the wave of support and assistance to the Muslim Chechens".


Where will this stop. 200 children taken hostage at school.
What justification is their for this?? Once again where does Islam allow this???

7LBAC111



[Edited 2004-09-01 12:21:32]


Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
250 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3967 times:

What is clear is that a whole bunch of these kids are going to die, which is a real slur on Islam. Where are all the Muslim leaders denouncing this act?


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offline7LBAC111 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 2566 posts, RR: 35
Reply 2, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3966 times:

Probably in their Mosques planning more Suicide Attacks.


Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3940 times:

The Muslim leader of North Ossetia is currently inside the school opening negotiations with the Chechens. And he has already denounced the act.

There was another bomb attack in Moscow last night near a metro. 10 people killed, including at least one kid, and over 50 injuried.

The same group which claimed responsibility for the VolgaAviaexpress and Siberia bombings have also claimed responsibility for the bomb blast last night and the taking of up to 400 people today.


User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 920 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3909 times:

I kind of understand their point, but that (or anything else) does not justify any acts of terrorism against anyone.

It's not all about Islam in that region (unlike the Middle East). Chechnya is a country occupied by the Russian Federation. After several years of trying to gain their independence (and stop the Russian agression) in a peaceful way by negotiations, they have given up and try the hard way now. At any rate, terrorism makes it only go worse.

Just my two copecks...


User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3762 times:

Islam, in the form preached by many, is not a religion of peace but a cult of violence, murder, and death. Muslims who do not follow those teachings need to speak up and denounce such actions. Sadly this rarely happens. Makes me wonder how many really do oppose it.


"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24964 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3713 times:

Although I know that it is a small group of muslims that do these kinds of acts of terrorism, its about time that someone from the Islamic world stood up against this, else the whole world will go against all Muslims and what will we have...murders of innocent muslims the whole world over...



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineJamesag96 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2095 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3703 times:

The German people were by and large peaceful, but were whipped up by the rhetoric of a few, and then were too impotent to stand up to them.

I think the same thing is happening here.

Too, Islam has not had the benefit of a religious schism, reformation, and resulting theological evolution. Sadly for the most part it is a religion mired in antiquated beliefs.

Remember Christianity has its fair share of blood in history.



Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3699 times:

Islam, in the form preached by many, is not a religion of peace but a cult of violence, murder, and death.

You really have no clue about what you are talking...

@Gkirk: I fully agree with your posting... The extremism (heck, B757300 is an extremist too with the only difference being the fact that he doesn't blow up Democrats yet) is only coming from small groups. Much people have nothing to do with those groups. Several attacks of the past weeks have even shown that a lot of bombs were against normal innocent Muslims.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 9, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3687 times:

As I see the problem with Chechnia is that what started as a rebellion for national independence has during the last ten years been hijacked by Islamist radicals for their own ends. AFAIK moderate Chechen politicians, nationalist, but willing to negotiate with the Russians, who wanted to build up a democratic country, have been sidelined (and sometimes killed as traitors) by radicals, who in some cases (as the Jordanian born leader of one guerilla group) don´t even come from Chechnia. I think some radical Muslim leaders are dreaming of a Muslim empire from Morocco to the Southern Philippines, of course under their rule and only permitting their interpretation of Islam.
There were similar problems in Bosnia, when it was discovered that a lot of Arab Islamistic radicals were coming there during the civil war to enforce their ideas of Islam on a quite unreligious public and a lot of "aid" from e.g. Saudi Arabia consisted of building mosques for radical groups.

Jan


User currently offlineMerC From Sweden, joined Dec 2003, 590 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3686 times:

Islam, in the form preached by many, is not a religion of peace but a cult of violence, murder, and death.

 Insane  Yeah sure



It's Scandinavian
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13754 posts, RR: 61
Reply 11, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3673 times:
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Islam, in the form preached by many, is not a religion of peace but a cult of violence, murder, and death.

You really have no clue about what you are talking...


Actually Sabena, he's right.

The key words there are "in the form preached by many." Not ALL - not by a long shot - but many Muslims have perverted their interpretation of Islam to justify the slaying of all non-Muslims in the name of God. Those sick individuals are the ones B757300 is talking about, not all Muslims in general.

While the percentage of Muslims who share the beliefs of these fanatics is very small, overall it's still a frighteningly large number of people.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3655 times:

Sabena,

It might be a small group of people preaching this kind of "Islam", but the fact that they follow through with action makes it too many of them. The fact that they are blowing up airplanes, destroying civilian busses, taking children hostage, beheading civilian workers, etc. etc. etc. is very disturbing. And the fact that nothing seems to be happening from within to change this is even more disturbing. Many times, it is the indifference of good people which is worse than the evil itself. Their silence and their inaction is just as bad in my eyes as the actions being carried out themselves.



NO URLS in signature
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3655 times:

While the percentage of Muslims who share the beliefs of these fanatics is very small, overall it's still a frighteningly large number of people.

Which is true. Should the goal be to simply eliminate these people? Or to help ensure that these people, and importantly future generations, change their views?

The Russians have had a very hard line against Chechen terrorists since 1999 - much the same hard line as the US is undertaking and apparently planning to undertake in other Muslim countries. Look where this approach has led the Russians. If anything, this shows that military force simply does not work against terrorists organisations, as terrorists are not a military force.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13754 posts, RR: 61
Reply 14, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3648 times:
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While the percentage of Muslims who share the beliefs of these fanatics is very small, overall it's still a frighteningly large number of people.

Which is true. Should the goal be to simply eliminate these people? Or to help ensure that these people, and importantly future generations, change their views?


You've hit the nail right on the head. What should the goal be with these people, exactly? You can't just say, "Wipe them out." However, you can't change the views of those who don't want their views changed, either.

And ignoring the problem in hopes it goes away only results in things like 9/11.

To be honest, I don't know that there is any solution, short of hoping that the majority of peaceful, decent Muslims rise up in opposition to those who would corrupt all they stand for.




"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3643 times:

I don't think any sort of outside solution is possible. The only way to end terrorism if you ask me is from some sort of change from within, some sort of revolution of thought perhaps. Terrorism and radicalism is all too much accepted in too many of these countries and people. Once this changes, maybe there will be hope for large scale change.

As we've seen, for everybody else its a lose-lose situation.



NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3316 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3632 times:

I fully concur with Tbar's approach.
The West (generally speaking) cannot do more than put aidband on a wooden leg.

We like it or not, but religion is at the core of the problem; not the precepts of the religion itself, though all religious texts are unspecific enough to support a wide variety of interpretations, but as the philosophical background on which those movements build up their motives and justify their actions.

The change has to come from inside. But where inside ?
There is nothing such as a single religious authority, there are hundreds, leading a dozen of religious variations.
It is not confined to one specific country but to a couple of dozens, all of them being more or less tightly linked to the religion, as deep in fact as in the law itself.
It is not better on the political side, by tradition, opportunism and necessity, the only things that matters in those places is the ruler's interest and his country's stability.

So what (to do) ?


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 17, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3624 times:

Another problem is that there exist plenty ofmoderate Muslims over the Islamic world, but they are constantly in danger of getting assaulted, maimed or killed by the fanatics, so they are very carefull about publicaly speaking out. Acc. to a Spiegel magazine (German news magazine, comparable to Newsweek and Time magazine in size and importance) article a few weeks ago, even in Germany, moderate Muslims, who speak out in favour of the constitution and against radicalism complain about being harrassed and threatened. In some countries controlledc by the radicals, they actually face prison.
Another thing is (what I´ve heard from a female Iranian aquaintance, who had to flee Iran as a young woman in the 80´s), is that the radical, just believe strongly and support us, we´ll promise you a pie in the sky ideas, get supported mostly by the uneducated, poorer part of the society
Instead of condeming ALL Muslims, we should help those moderates (who in some cases I see as Islamic Martin Luthers), to redefine Islam to fit into 21st century society and to reform it, without having to give up their belief. At the same time a massive educational campaign is necessary, also to teach children, that to define yourself, it is NOT necessary to hate somebody else.

Jan


User currently offlineQIguy24 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3619 times:

Just look at that Iranian author. I can't remember his name now but I think it is Salman Rushdie. He has a death warrant on him because he expressed his opinion about religion in Iran. And AFAIK he fled to England and lives there now.

User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3316 posts, RR: 34
Reply 19, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3614 times:

Yes Jan, it is as always a few who are leading the uneducated poor masses.
We had our middle ages, they are for the most part still in theirs.

Educational campaign: in the poorest countries this is usually not a priority, sometimes not even an major concern.
In the richest (oil soaked) who really did spend on education, it results in making three categories of educated natives: the incompetent who will get a high-paid job anyway by virtue of their nationality, the lazy who will not take a job but still get an income by virtue of their nationality, the gifted and working ones who will immigrate to the West.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 20, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3611 times:

In current Iran, the educated people and the middle class support changes to democracy (in fact they are heartily fed up with corrupt clerical rule, but just kind of resigned for the moment), while the Mullahs rely on the very conservative poorer class, those e.g. who can´t send their kids to a good school, but instead to a free one run by the radicals, where they get indoctrinated.

Jan


User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3600 times:

In response to OV735.

There has never been an independent country of Chechnya. The only thing which there is, is an ethnic group called Chechens. They have never had a central government, and contrary to what the pro-Chechen websites would lead you to believe, they have never lived in peace. Pro-Chechen sites go on about how the Chechens have never gone to battle, except in defence. Not true. The Chechens have been in plenty of offensive battles throughout their history -- mainly between themselves. Chechen society is very much clan-based, and it continues to be so. This is evident in that Mashkadov claims he has nothing to do with any of the recent terrorist acts against Russia (utter bullshit!!), but if he speaks the truth, then it is one of the other Chechen clans who is trying to gain more control within the Chechen society.

In the last 10 years it has NOT been Russia who has been the aggressor, but rather the Chechens themselves. They illegally declared independence after the fall of the CCCP -- independence which was not recognised by a single country -- and they turned the country into a hotbed of terrorist activity, which got so bad that Russia had no choice but to send federal troops into the Republic (remember, the Republic is not a historical one, but a Soviet created one).

Because the Russians didn't want to obliterate Grozhny, in 1996, a cease fire was signed, and the federal troops left.

It wasn't until 1999 that the current war started, and this was at the behest of the Chechens who decided that it would be a good tactic to bomb apartment buildings in various Russian cities. Even after these bombings, Moscow did not send Federal troops to Chechnya. It was only after Chechen terrorists crossed into neighbouring Dagestan and launched terrorist attacks there in support of the small movement in that Republic which wants independence from Russia and an Islamic Republic (they are in the minority).

It was then that Moscow sent troops into the region and the war began.

For the last 10 years, Federal Russia has not been the aggressor. This does not mean to say that Federal troops are not guilty of abuses, but it was not without provocation.

I 100% support the aims of the Federal Russian government in Chechnya, with reservations -- those reservations being that abuses need to be fully investigated, and those who are guilty being punished -- this has been happening more often in the last 12 months or so.

The Chechens have at no stage ever tried to peacefully negotiate a thing in regards to their desire to secede from the Russian Federation and to install an Islamic Republic (one which would be even more strict than Afghanistan under the Taliban -- yes fundamentalist Islam plays a BIG factor in Chechnya).


User currently offlineFJWH From Netherlands, joined May 2004, 969 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3572 times:

Ow G-SUS, where is humanity going???
Deahts, hostages, explosions, Al-Qaida....

I'm getting so sick of those mf bastards in the middle-east......!!!
It's all caused by (.......) religion!!



FlightS in the next 3 months: MSP, PHX, MEM, NCE, TFS, BCN. All round trips from AMS
User currently offlineJutes85 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3570 times:

I'm getting so sick of those mf bastards in the middle-east......!!!
It's all caused by (.......) religion!!


Obviously they will deny this. They can't accept the fact that they are the cause of many of the worlds security issues.


User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (10 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3568 times:

@EA CO AS, 777236ER and others,

Actually, I do agree with the interpretation you give in your posting.

You've hit the nail right on the head. What should the goal be with these people, exactly? You can't just say, "Wipe them out." However, you can't change the views of those who don't want their views changed, either.

Honnestly, I don't have a solution either...

The people blowing up themselves are promissed to be in paradise after their "heroïc" act.

Still today, kids at the age of 10-15 are being brainwashed to get an anti-Western mentality. The future generation of terrorists coming from the MEA Middle East Airlines (Lebanon)">ME is currently being brainwashed.

What can you do about it?

Saying that a mentality change is needed, is indeed thé solution, but not easy to achieve.

I really hope that stability will come soon into Iraq, and (although the chances are very small in my eyes unfortunately) a real democracy will be created. A stable environment, and attention for all the problems the people in the MEA Middle East Airlines (Lebanon)">ME have, is the way to a reduction in terrorism in my eyes.

Although the war in Iraq ended officialy a long time ago, it is sad to hear that a lot of people still don't have electricity and water. I hope that a priority will be made to give those people important things like water and electricity asap, as it only stimulates the anti-Western mentality.

Frederic


25 777236ER : We can at least agree that changing the mentality is a lot better in the long term than bombing a few people. Consider this: in fifty years no one wil
26 Iakobos : Russophile, "They illegally declared independence" I assume you could rephrase this sentence to make the paradox less visible. If these clans really w
27 Schoenorama : B757300: "...Sadly this rarely happens. Makes me wonder how many really do oppose it." Ryanb741: "...Where are all the Muslim leaders denouncing this
28 ZKSUJ : The radio here says that there are 400 people being held as hostages.
29 Prebennorholm : Apartment blocks, theatres, airliners, schools, busses, super markets, trains... This will go on forever, if no really radical event happens. On one s
30 Kl911 : QR332, '''If they were Jewish would that have been written up there?''' Jews liberate hostages, they don't take them hostage... big difference. '''No,
31 Iakobos : Cool down QR, you are right in the sense that the Chechens are not fighting under the umbrella of religious pretences, they are fighting an all-out wa
32 Jutes85 : Wow, looks like QR lost his mind. If they were Jewish would that have been written up there? Sure it would. But the difference is, that will never hap
33 MD-90 : That is just pure racism to all Muslims Considering that Muslims do not form a race, I fail to see that distinction.
34 Post contains images EA CO AS : Muslims who do not follow those teachings need to speak up and denounce such actions. We don't have free speech, how can we denounce it? I'd suggest t
35 7LBAC111 : Jutes85, They can't accept the fact that they are the cause of many of the worlds security issues. Its not that they can't accept it, its that they ar
36 L410Turbolet : What I'm really afraid of is another spectacular but completely mismanaged rescue operation, so Putin can parade himself as tough on terrorism afterwa
37 Russophile : One can hardly teach an old dog new tricks. Why should they ask in Moscow for permission. Ummm.....because it was the Russians who have had control ov
38 LY7E7 : Do you believe in your signature Russophile, or is it irony?
39 QR332 : KL, in comparison to the rest is not many. That does means they are a lot, but they are a tiny amount of Muslims. Considering that Muslims do not form
40 Russophile : Anyway, should anyway care enough, 16 are now confirmed killed, and 26 have been released. I'll leave you all to arguing over irrelevant details.
41 L410Turbolet : for several hundreds of years Since 1859 to be specific, 1783 at the best. Do you believe in your signature Russophile, or is it irony? I think he doe
42 MD11Engineer : Russophile, While during the 16th to 19th century the other imperialist nations in Europe conquered their colonial empires overseas (and geographicaly
43 Slider : Jan, I really enjoy reading your posts and appreciate your taking the time to contribute to the discussion as I am admitedly not terribly up to speed
44 EA CO AS : Thank you for illustrating yet ANOTHER big part of the problem - the "Why should I get involved against any Muslim for any reason?" argument. I'm a Ca
45 MD11Engineer : Slider, We have lots of Muslims living in Germany (mostly Turkish), in fact in Berlin (my home town) Islam is the second biggest religion right after
46 Russophile : Since 1859 to be specific, 1783 at the best. Good to see you have been getting your info from a website. Because only one who has done this would know
47 MD11Engineer : If a majority of the population of a certain region wants to become independent, then it is their natural right to declare themselves independent, ful
48 LY7E7 : To some extent, I do believe it. So what? What exactly does my signature have to do with this discussion? It has as much to do with this discussion as
49 L410Turbolet : Again, Chechnya has no right to declare any independence. What on Earth makes you think that you are the ones to say who has the right to be independe
50 EA CO AS : What DOES Russophile's signature mean, anyway? I've tried translating it using Babel Fish, to no avail.
51 Iakobos : Russophile, Could you address the questions hereafter, which I first typed in post #26 ? If these clans really want their independence, possibly throu
52 Post contains links LY7E7 : "V pobede bessmertnykh idey kommunisma, my vidim gryadushchee nashey strany" means: In the victory of the immortal ideas of communism we see the forth
53 Cumulonimbus : One day people are going to Piss off the wrong Leader and it will be Islam versus the rest of the world. A true Holy war. Lets hope it does not come
54 LY7E7 : Is there anything like fre independent media and investigative journalism that might give a multi-faced approach to the comprehension of events ? Not
55 Kl911 : '''One day people are going to Piss off the wrong Leader and it will be Islam versus the rest of the world. A true Holy war. Lets hope it does not com
56 Iakobos : KL911, do us a favour, ask your boss to transfer you to a M-E agency. With your talents you could be a valuable mole and provide strategic intelligenc
57 Post contains links LY7E7 : Apparently the numbers are more scary than 200 : http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/02/russia.school/index.html
58 Russophile : If a majority of the population of a certain region wants to become independent, then it is their natural right to declare themselves independent, ful
59 Post contains images Russophile : Apparently the numbers are more scary than 200 : If you read Reply #3, you would have seen that. By the way, the figure I gave, was sourced from an in
60 Post contains images Ryanb741 : Thing is the Russians (rightly) won't negotiate, if they did then there would be loads more hostage situations. The terrorists aren't afraid of death
61 LY7E7 : independent Russian media outlet Care to name it?
62 Russophile : Ryan, the Russians will negotiate. They will have no other choice. But, anything given by the Russians will be minimal. Sending in special forces has
63 Post contains links Russophile : Care to name it? http://www.kommersant.ru and http://www.rbc.ru You can also throw http://www.vedomosti.ru into the mix. They are the 3 most visited s
64 LY744 : Independent media is really thriving under comrade Putin. That is as long as they don't get on the bad side of the wrong person. Then it suddenly turn
65 Caribb : You know there is nothing in the the world that would justify holding elementary school children hostage. I could care less what their cause, goal or
66 LY7E7 : So what were you saying about there not being an independent media? Checking these we my sources, will have an answer by Sunday. Right now, assuming t
67 Russophile : See Vedomosti.ru? See that big logo at the top? The one with the FINANCIAL TIMES and the WALL STREET JOURNAL. Those two publications are behind Vedomo
68 Post contains links L410Turbolet : The number of hostages appears to be much higher: http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/02/russia.school/index.html
69 Qantas077 : news just in, it appears the building is being stormed by Russian Authoritites, not looking good either with closer to 1000 people being held. apparen
70 L-188 : Yeah, saw the blup on the top of the CNN homepage. Roof partially collapsed, Gunfire and fleeing children. This isn't going to be pretty.
71 QR332 : May God be with them, and I hope they all escape saftley...
72 Ryanb741 : I say if loads of kids have died it's going to be open season on Mosques in Russia. And I really couldn't care. Having grown up in the Middle East and
73 PhotoLPPT : CNN and other sources, quoting russian oficials, now report 'most hostages are alive', whatever that means...
74 Post contains links Russophile : In another aspect, Russia called an urgent meeting of the UN Security Council, and asked for a strong condemnation of the terrrorists. This is seen as
75 OV735 : The initial reports of the 'rescue operation' make it sound terribly similar to the Moscow theatre hostage crisis 'rescue' in 2002, when the special f
76 L410Turbolet : Let's hope that no news on casualties will mean good news, although the volume of gunfire and number of explosions is scary.
77 L-188 : Well with all due respect. In regards to the theatre attack, I do have to give the Russian troops credit for trying to use the gas in an attempt to sa
78 OV735 : L-188, I do understand that if they hadn't stormed the theatre building then, the result could have been much worse, however the tactic was unbelievab
79 L-188 : I never said that it wasn't painfully ill-executed or woefully underplanned.
80 Russophile : The initial reports of the 'rescue operation' make it sound terribly similar to the Moscow theatre hostage crisis 'rescue' in 2002, when the special f
81 L410Turbolet : According to Czech TV, which should have a guy on the spot, some of the Chechens barricaded themselves in the school. They also mention the unofficial
82 L-188 : I would call it underplanned too, Turbolet. Sometimes that is a byproduct of rushed planning under the gun
83 Danny : 150 dead, many terrorist escaped, others still have hostages - what a great action. I knew Putin never cared about people's lives - Kursk, theatre in
84 Ryanb741 : Danny, it was the hostage takers who started the shooting and explosions. After that point the Russians had to react, or more people would have died.
85 Danny : "Danny, it was the hostage takers who started the shooting and explosions " According to Russian officials...which means that is 99% a lie. And even i
86 L-188 : Danny, what could Putin do about the sinking of the Kursk? I am curious to find out. And Ryanb741 is quite right, a what point do you make a go/no go
87 Andrej : Hello, I was following this thread and the news regarding school. First, I believe that this is a bad tragedy. However how can one from a.net criticiz
88 L410Turbolet : Let's try not to be smartass armchair generals, Danny. I agree with you 100% on Kursk. There was no real enemy, except weather, and yet they still let
89 L-188 : Andrej, I agree with you......What happened today definately was not the "A" plan.
90 Post contains links OV735 : "Heavy gunfire and loud explosions were heard as ambulances rushed scores of casualties to nearby hospitals." - BBC, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe
91 Danny : "Danny, what could Putin do about the sinking of the Kursk? I am curious to find out." He didn't allow foreign rescue teams to even try to rescue the
92 GDB : ITN have a reporter on scenes, live. Some children escaped, Chechen's fired on them, even left the building trying to cut them down, so the Russian's
93 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Andrej, you get a lot from reading (Rude)pravo.cz and pravda.sk a true media dinosaurs and benchmark of bias... L410
94 Danny : From BBC: 0930: School roof is reported to have collapsed. 0925: Four helicopters are seen hovering over the school. 0914: A group of about 30 hostage
95 L-188 : Maybe Danny, Maybe, The BBC is pretty reliable but even their guys probably had their heads down when those explosions occured. So don't take their ti
96 L410Turbolet : Danny, a) it's different if you have hostage situation involving an airliner/bank with tens of hostages and few individual terrorists, which was usual
97 Go Canada! : Having scanned through this thread I noticed that a lot of posts at the start did not actually focus on the events that there are 100s of children fea
98 Post contains links GDB : You have a situation with 100's of terrified children as hostages, without food/water for a long time now, a lot of hostages and even if there were 30
99 Danny : "Danny, a) it's different if you have hostage situation involving an airliner/bank with tens of hostages and few individual terrorists, which was usua
100 L-188 : Very important difference there Danny. In Lima I don't believe the hostage takers believed they had 72 virgins waiting for them on death. Which means
101 Danny : I don't think these were suicide bombers. Aren't they still trying to escape?
102 L-188 : Those would be the cowards. Quite a few of them where wearing bomb belts and blew themselves up, which is why there are reports of so many dead kids i
103 GDB : I've heard several very independent foreign correspondents, who are at the scene, say they think it all started when the terrorists started firing at
104 Russophile : Danny, don't go flinging shit. Because I can throw it back, on the behalf of Russians, and say your country ain't exactly the bastion of truth either.
105 Schoenorama : 7LBAC111: "I quote from the original article, An Islamist group, calling itself the Islambouli Brigades, claimed responsibility and described the atta
106 Russophile : But these Muslim Chechens aren't fighting to protect their religion, they are fighting to protect what they believe is their territory and they just h
107 Post contains images RJ100 : It's now confirmed that there are more than 100 people dead... damn terrorists RJ100
108 Post contains images QR332 : Ryanb741, I say if loads of kids have died it's going to be open season on Mosques in Russia. And I really couldn't care. So innocent Muslims should p
109 7LBAC111 : Islamic leaders didn't say go take these people as hostages Maybe not - but there are dozens of so called clerics in Western European countries who ar
110 Boeing7E7 : Dear Russia, If you need our help, pick up the phone. This is bullshit. Signed, The United States of America[Edited 2004-09-03 17:24:33]
111 QR332 : Maybe not - but there are dozens of so called clerics in Western European countries who are actively recruiting fighters for Afghanistan and Iraq and
112 LY7E7 : I don't need an Israeli software engineer to tell me what is and isn't credible when it comes to the Russian media Ya znayu tvoyu ebanuyu stranu luchs
113 Pilot kaz : Some on the pictures I'm seeing on TV are horrible. This a truly terrible event and my thoughts are with the hostages and the victims.
114 Post contains images Andrej : Hey L410Turbolet, how you doin'? If you would read my post carefuly, I said one of the news sources I read include pravo and pravda. I am not sure wha
115 7LBAC111 : Dear Russia, If you need our help, pick up the phone. This is bullshit. Signed, The United States of America And The United Kingdom of Great Britain
116 Ryanb741 : Exactly. Regardless of other posts, this is an Islamic thing. Non-muslims don't do this on such a scale. Sick fucks.
117 Sv7887 : Hi All, I love all the anti Russian rhetoric on this thread..(Sarcasm here..) Had this occurred in the US, they'd probably be bombing some random Musl
118 L410Turbolet : Schoenorama, I think you are just making even bigger fool of yourself, by trying to find excuses (as always), whatever they might be.
119 LY7E7 : Don't politicians normally have prepared statements when something is planned? Only in countries where politicians somehow care of their citizens and
120 Russophile : I say if loads of kids have died it's going to be open season on Mosques in Russia. And I really couldn't care. I would have to concur with QR332 here
121 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : The biggest risk is the general population. Chatting with a gal in Moscow, she said that today on the metro on her way to work she saw a young boy wit
122 N6376m : I hate to say this, but it's only a matter of time until this happens on US soil. Actually, I'm surprised that it hasn't already happened. There is on
123 LY7E7 : Care to name it? http://www.kommersant.ru and http://www.rbc.ru You can also throw http://www.vedomosti.ru into the mix. Indeed reliable free sources.
124 Ryanb741 : Exactly. Whilst the pogroms against the Jews were baced on racism and were not the Jews' fault, Muslims have brought their plight upon themselves. Of
125 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : This sounds all too familiar: After AD 750 the Abbasids ruled the Muslim world. The Abbasids were Arabs descended from Muhammad's family and although
126 Post contains images Russophile : But, as I've said such exist only on the internet, which only a few percents of people in Russia have an access to. Both Kommersant and Vedomosti are
127 LY744 : Back to the topic at hand, it's been 9 hours since all hell broke loose at the school and it seems that the operation is still underway, some of the t
128 Slider : As for the Muslim dimenson..Obviously you can't label the whole race as "terrorists" for the actions of a misguided few. Not to speak for him, but I'l
129 L410Turbolet : ...'accidental' explosion within the school or internal fighting among the gang members I've heard it on the radio that one of those who got out alive
130 Iakobos : L410, Lessons are learned in Moscow, little doubt about it. One would be: there is nothing to do against a bunch of people who are prepared to die, ex
131 L410Turbolet : Iakobos, I meant lessons in the sense of underestimating the resources for immediate aftermath of the rescue operation. If the authorities failed to r
132 GDB : Appalling loss of life, however, I think it was clear from the start that this was likely to end in carnage, from the numbers involved to the fanatici
133 Iakobos : L410, I do not condone an idea as long as they are just that: ideas. See where this brings you now ? some were black and it is a wider plot organized
134 L410Turbolet : As far as underestimating the resouces needed, this is non-sense, exactly in the same line as the flawed intelligence in Iraq. You believe Moscow did
135 Iakobos : Turbo, You last post, lines 4 to 7.
136 Kl911 : Iakobos, I get the feeling that you are A: against the media, and B: you have sympathy for those Arab terrorists. I hope I'm wrong, but please explain
137 L410Turbolet : Maybe it's too late for me to comprehend... You believe Moscow did not know it was a school precisely at the opening day and hour of the new schoolyea
138 LY744 : - According to the latest reports, over 700 people have been hospitalized, and over 200 have been confirmed dead - It took 10 hours to completely secu
139 Iakobos : No L410, I do not buy the "we did not know" or "we could not appreciate the real situation" approaches. Totally understandable that they could not kno
140 L410Turbolet : No L410, I do not buy the "we did not know" or "we could not appreciate the real situation" approaches. Totally understandable that they could not kno
141 Kl911 : Iakobos, ''Kl911: you did not understand a bit. The media reports (what ?) and have to make sell. Behind the legitimate aim to inform, there are also
142 Iakobos : Kl911: for the sake of the truth, it was said that the cameraman is not British, he is Russian and hired by a British media channel. He did not say an
143 Post contains images Jutes85 : I might be a bit slow on the uptake, but if I understand you correctly you're basically saying that "Moscow" let it become such a horrible tragedy on
144 Kl911 : Iakobos, ''I also saw and heard the BBC/Skynews and the relation was: he does not know how many bodies were there but many. '' If it isn't 100 bodies,
145 Iakobos : As far as you are concerned Kl911, it is extremely clear. You are not shocked that (if) AQ is involved in this region, it comforts you in your opinion
146 Schoenorama : Kl911: "The fact is that innocent little children died because of ARAB terrorisme. I guess that's clear by now." Would you please calm down, and THINK
147 Russophile : KL911, I suggest you stop it with your hate filled vitriol towards the Arabs. It is pathetic. The fact is that innocent little children died because o
148 Kl911 : ''Would you please calm down'' No I won't, Since : A: It's always the same people involved in those terrible attacks. B: It's always the same people d
149 Iakobos : Actually Kl911 is in my view a valuable member on this forum. He definitely help others to put things in perspective.
150 Schoenorama : ....and it's always the same saying completely unfounded stupidities! "It's always the same people involved in those terrible attacks." No it's not. A
151 Kl911 : ''No it's not. A couple of planes came down the other day and no Arabs were involved there!''' You want me to give you again the WTC history? All 19 w
152 Schoenorama : Kl911: "You want me to give you again the WTC history? All 19 were Arabs. EDIT: And in case you talk about the russian planes: there is no info yet."
153 Russophile : Chechyen terrorism is not about Islam against the Rest of the Holy World. Chechyen terrorism, like ETA terrorism, is about separatism. THAT'S the issu
154 Kl911 : '''So instead of shouting BLOODY ARABS, shout BLOODY SEPARATISTS and I'll join you without hesitation!!!''' OK, I got the point. Forgive me for my poo
155 LY744 : More updates: - At least 18 members of the armed forces and MVD are currently hospitalized due to injuries suffered in the school storming and subsequ
156 LY744 : - Sadly, the casualty count is up to 250 according to officials - The last two terrorists were killed 13 hours after today's fighting began, they were
157 Iakobos : Russophile, what about : the boiling situation in the whole region (not the sole Chechnya) is a direct legacy of Stalin's politics. what about : Putin
158 Boeingnut : From CNN.com One witness told a reporter that a hostage-taker had set off a suicide bomb in a gymnasium full of children. Valery Andreyev, head of the
159 LY7E7 : Other independents include(The Independent) which is owned by Berezovsky, and still has a large readership (50,000), and is rabid against Putin. You h
160 Russophile : You help me to prove my point. For someone who says Ya znayu tvoyu ebanuyu stranu luchsche chem ti dumayesh haven't you realised that at every stage y
161 Ryanb741 : You know, events like this are increasingly making be think that it's about time that the allies team up to eradicate the Islamist menace. Forget the
162 LY744 : Apparently the terrorists, disguised as construction workers, hid a large number of explosives and weapons inside the school several months ahead of t
163 Sv7887 : Ryan, I have to agree with you. I'm a dual US/UK citizen and see the same thing happening. I'm studying in London right now, and the anti Muslim senti
164 LY7E7 : 50,000 is quite a good number. Have a look at New York or London No, it's not a good number.The NYT circulates in much higher numbers in NYC alone. (A
165 Slider : WAKE UP, before starting a major religious war!!!! Newsflash for you: we're already in one. The war has begun. It was declared a long time ago while t
166 PROSA : I'm a dual US/UK citizen and see the same thing happening. I'm studying in London right now, and the anti Muslim sentiment is quite obvious. Even in t
167 Ryanb741 : But there IS something wrong with Islam. The religion encourages the use of violence to convert people to Islam. That distinguishes it from the other
168 PROSA : Unfortunately, Islam is still a male dominated religion still living in the Middle Ages and this has put it at odds with the modern world It could be
169 Iakobos : Obviously some here are leaving their bowels to do the thinking. Looks like a bad copy of OK corral. Can you try to raise it two levels gentlemen or i
170 Slider : Bingo Ryan!! Right on the money- your posts have been a beacon of truth and fact among some here who would muddy the waters by not calling these assho
171 Ryanb741 : No our brains aren't made of gunpowder, but personally I am fed up of the same bastards commiting the same crimes because some book allegedly allows i
172 Iakobos : Ryanb741, We only need a few more like you to get rid of everyone who does not deserve to live, by your standards of course. Half of the planet will b
173 Slider : Iakobos- Ah, I knew it was only a matter of time before the intolerance card was played. So predictable. And the personal attacks and insults are a ni
174 Iakobos : So Mr Slider, what is the real issue since you know it. Please tell the world, whom until now has been reduced to listen to what our dear leaders are
175 Post contains images Slider : So Mr Slider, what is the real issue since you know it. Please tell the world, whom until now has been reduced to listen to what our dear leaders are
176 Schoenorama : Slider: "Newsflash for you: we're already in one. The war has begun. It was declared a long time ago while the rest of the world sat in silence. " But
177 Slider : So Schoen, If this is a civil war, a valiant fight for independence, why are the Chechens aligned with terrorists?
178 Russophile : The fact that 9 of them were Arabs, does NOT mean that their motives were religious. The fact that the OTHER terrorist were NOT Arabs should ring a be
179 Russophile : Interestingly, although they do blame al-Qaeda, Moscow doesn't want any international intervention claiming this is a 'domestic issue'. Also, do you k
180 Schoenorama : Slider: "If this is a civil war, a valiant fight for independence, why are the Chechens aligned with terrorists?" The word 'valiant' is yours, Slider,
181 Iakobos : No Mr Slider, the issue I was refering to is not who the perpetrators are but what are their motives, what pushes them to kill people at random. This
182 Russophile : Now, Russophile might be able to tell us how the Russian troops did operate in Chechnya in the last 10 years (minus a break), how many Chechens died,
183 Sv7887 : Russophile, Excellent post. I agree wholeheartedly with what you've said. The USA cannot speak on a higher moral ground. Just look at what's going on
184 Russophile : I was impressed with President Putin's speech. I was frankly surprised that he admitted the problems with the border guards and corruption. The questi
185 Buckfifty : No our brains aren't made of gunpowder, but personally I am fed up of the same bastards commiting the same crimes because some book allegedly allows i
186 Iakobos : No Russophile, you misunderstood me, but I can understand why. I do not say X or Z are more guilty, I say that all are guilty of atrocities. For the C
187 LY7E7 : Here's something different on the same subject. I live about 4 blocks away from the Russian embassy in Tel Aviv. Returning home last night I noticed f
188 Iakobos : Humane gesture LY... No embassy here but feelings replace the candle.
189 PROSA : How will Russians react? I think that is a question best answered on Monday, for this will be when the daily papers will be chocked full of informatio
190 Iakobos : For everyone's sake, let's hope that V. Putin has something more in his brains than PROSA. Now on a civilized level, Comrad Vladimir Vladimirovich AND
191 Andrej : Hello, I believe that there will be no negotiations. Putin will not talk to Chechen separatists. He did not negotiate with them before, and after what
192 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Such as Maskhadov, who says that he only wants independence, although he still has Islam in mind, but this has taken a back seat due to the opinion of
193 Russophile : If anyone is interested, here is Putin's speech in it's entirety, as news outlets are only picking and choosing....... Speaking is hard. It is painful
194 PROSA : For everyone's sake, let's hope that V. Putin has something more in his brains than PROSA. Care to tell me what's so bad about my idea? I'll bet you c
195 Slider : And the world did nothing to assist. The world was more of a hindrance if anything else. Very good post overall, Russophile. I would say your statemen
196 Yyz717 : We CANNOT confuse or compare Chechyan terrorism wth terrorism in the West. Chechyans want self-determination -- Russia should allow them that democrat
197 Iakobos : The only thing that destroying a country, like you suggest Prosa, can bring is even more hatred. You should also realize that scorching and bombing br
198 Post contains images Andrej : Hello YYZ717, would you like to care and give me example where Russians killed 150 children? I try to think and really can not think of any. It seems
199 Yyz717 : Hello YYZ717, would you like to care and give me example where Russians killed 150 children? Sure, how about the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 197
200 Post contains images 7LBAC111 : YYZ717 While the terrorist tactics might seem ugly, they are nothing compared to the Russian/Soviet treatment of many minorities until 1991 I am shock
201 Post contains links Schoenorama : 7LBAC111: "I am shocked that you can in any way condone the Chechen rebels slaughter of 150 children. You sicken me." Please indicate exactly where he
202 Russophile : So Yyz717, let me get this straight. You support Chechen terrorism against the Russian people, but do not support Palestinian terrorism against the Is
203 Post contains links 7LBAC111 : Schoenerama Please indicate exactly where he is condoning the Chechen rebels Please read YYZ717's post again. I quote I am on the Chechnyan side of th
204 Schoenorama : 7LBAC111: Talk about selective quoting... This is what YYZ717 said: "While the terrorist tactics might seem ugly, they are nothing compared to the Rus
205 Yyz717 : So Yyz717, let me get this straight. You support Chechen terrorism against the Russian people Correct. Chechnyans were raped and murdered by the Sovie
206 7LBAC111 : Schoenorama Please indicate exactly where he is condoning the Chechen rebels? At that point the impression I had was that YYZ717 was condoning the ter
207 Klaus : According to the german ARD Tagesschau just a few minutes ago, Putin has conceded that russian troops committed human rights violations in Chechyna an
208 7LBAC111 : Schoenorama One other thing - I accept that this isnt a reflection of ALL Muslims, and if at any time I implied that I did then that was never my inte
209 PROSA : The only thing that destroying a country, like you suggest Prosa, can bring is even more hatred. You should also realize that scorching and bombing br
210 Schoenorama : 7LBAC111: "At that point the impression I had was that YYZ717 was condoning the terroism. The following statement proved that I and Andrej were correc
211 Andrej : Hello YYZ717, would you give me more information, when Soviet Armed Forces had killed 150 children at one point during Afghan War? I believe that ther
212 Yyz717 : IRA now can justify thier attacks in 1980's. Northern Ireland is a democracy (or rather part of the democratic GBR) and the majority of people in Nort
213 7LBAC111 : To all those who claim to RESPECT YYZ717, I ask you to read his above posts and reconsider yopur position. This is a person who claims the recent murd
214 Klaus : 7LBAC111: This is a person who thinks Chechnya should be treated with humanity. I see. Kill them all, or what? You´re aware of the children in Chechn
215 Russophile : This person may harbour sympathies for the atrocities in Spain and America. No, he doesn't. He doesn't support terrorism against Spain. He doesn't sup
216 7LBAC111 : Klaus, I'm aware of the children of Chechnya, and I am equally aware of the children of America and Spain. Does YYZ717 think of the suffering these ki
217 Andrej : Hello Russophile, I say amen to your post!!! Some poeple just don't want to learn !!! Cheers, Andrej
218 Yyz717 : for YYZ717 to post his support and justification on something which repulses every right thinking person - it's nothing short of incomprehensible. Wha
219 Jutes85 : What's really incomprehensible is that Russians are willing to risk their own children's lives for the sake of denying Chechnya freedom. What the hell
220 Post contains links and images Zak : slate has a bunch of on spot cartoons in todays edition: more can be seen here: http://www.cagle.com/news/TerrorisminRussia/main.asp
221 Jutes85 : Russia needs a strong dictaror back in power. I can tell you that he will not take any of Chechnya's BS, it will be left to rubble in no time.
222 Klaus : Jutes85: it will be left to rubble in no time. It already is reduced to rubble. You´re several years too late. Why do you think they´re getting more
223 Andrej : Dear Klaus, with all due respect, where did you hear that Russians are willing to talk to the radicals? As of last, I have heard that Russians will no
224 Post contains images Klaus : Andrej: with all due respect, where did you hear that Russians are willing to talk to the radicals? As of last, I have heard that Russians will not ta
225 Post contains images Andrej : Hello Klaus, everything what I stated is possibility, but will they take course of action? Prob. not, b/c they have a better way than I predict. (That
226 Yyz717 : Russia needs a strong dictator back in power. Then it will remain a poor corrupt 3rd world country.
227 Andrej : Russia needs a strong dictator back in power. Then it will remain a poor corrupt 3rd world country. Yet again, it shows that you really have no idea
228 Yyz717 : Yet again, it shows that you really have no idea what you are talking about. I think that applies to you, not me. The West is wealthy because of its d
229 Russophile : Russia needs a strong dictaror back in power. I can not agree to this. What Russia needs is authority. I would blame Yeltsin for a lot of the troubles
230 Post contains images Andrej : YYZ717, I was refering to your statement Then it will remain a poor corrupt 3rd world country. Russia is no poor 3rd world country. It is developed in
231 Post contains images L410Turbolet : no Chechens were taken to Siberia in late 1990's and that is what Stalin did. He relocated Chechens, and so far they were not. So I guess current lead
232 Klaus : Andrej: As far as I remember, no Chechens were taken to Siberia in late 1990's and that is what Stalin did. No, you´re right, as far as I can tell. t
233 Jutes85 : Russophile: I can not agree to this. What Russia needs is authority Russia needs a leader that everyone will be afraid of. If Stalin was still in powe
234 Klaus : Jutes85, you still seem to believe that every problem in the world can (and should!) be "solved" by just being more brutal and more ruthless than ever
235 Post contains images Jutes85 : Being dumb and heavily armed is no substitute for being smart and successful. Hmmm, according to history military might destroyed every enemy. WWI, WW
236 Klaus : That´s the whole point of terrorism: You can´t simply carpet-bomb them like a regular army. If you´re ready to commit mass murder on civilians, mos
237 Jutes85 : Ahh Klaus, you make it sound so simple. Unfortunately, you can't always please both sides. The keystone in a successful anti-terrorism campaign is kno
238 Klaus : Jutes85: Ahh Klaus, you make it sound so simple. I wish! There´s nothing "simple" about this. It takes long, there are few things you can reliably kn
239 LY7E7 : If you can still remember that, the response to the 9-11 attacks was worldwide and basically unanimous Only because it happened in the US and on an en
240 Russophile : I really can't wait until that happens. Russia which will forge relationships based on dipomacy and friendship. Read: Russian bear flexing its militar
241 Yyz717 : like Yyz717, you are an outright Russian hater. I believe in democracy and human rights. The Russians killed more than 70M people in the last 100 year
242 JeepBoy : There is one thing left to say: At least the Russian's admitted to making mistakes and didn't fuck arse around and have FOX 8 to have the latest freew
243 Post contains images Klaus : Yyz717: I believe in democracy and human rights. You might want to make that a little more obvious, once in a while... Yyz717: The Russians as a natio
244 JeepBoy : The problem Klaus is that these buffoons have already put those of us in need at the end of the queue. PEAK OIL jb
245 Russophile : I believe in democracy and human rights. And you still don't see how totally hyprocritical you are? Russia: A democracy in which the people directly e
246 Klaus : Russophile: Russia: A democracy in which the people directly elect the President, and the representatives of the Duma. Nominally, yes. In practice it
247 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Well, we know you don't want this to happen, because like Yyz717, you are an outright Russian hater. If you want anything but a strong Russia, then I
248 Russophile : Hater is way to strong word. But you're right that I don't want strong Russia because it inevitably means Russians forcing their will upon other with
249 Jutes85 : Most Ukrainians I know have absolutely no ill will towards the Russians. Myself included. My family also has good feelings towards Russians, and same
250 PROSA : YYZ, Why do you hate Russians so much? You do know that Russians themselves are not barbaric animals like you would like us to believe. 20 Million peo
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