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What Is Putin Doing?  
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1555 times:

I don't understand why Putin is taking such a low profile after the horrors of last week. His nation just underwent perhaps the most viscious terrorist attacks in history (an attack on kids, for Christ's sake - that's as bad or worse than 9/11), and he has not rallied the people together. Nearly half of the terrorists were Arabs as well, pointing a solid finger towards Al Qaeda or other similar groups. Maybe he's embarassed about previous mishandling of Chechnya, or that he did not do enough to go after international terrorism when he had the chance, but this is a time when many past mistakes can be forgiven, if he would simply get up off his butt and LEAD!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=5&u=/nm/20040906/ts_nm/russia_school_dc

Charles

61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUal747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1507 times:

He's probably doing more than you know. Remember, western media, yes, even in Canada, tend to focus on western issues. (Is Russia considered a westernized country yet?). Anyway, the day that it happened, I turned on the news, CNN, and they were talking about a woman who had too many dogs in her house and was arrested for animal cruelty. They did mention the story several times, but no where near the intensive attention 9/11 got all over the world. I also checked the BBC and they talked about it, but changed stories quite frequently.

UAL747


User currently offlineUal747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1503 times:

Whoops, you're in Switzerland, not Canada! Duh....sorry.

UAL


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6799 posts, RR: 34
Reply 3, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1498 times:

How he conducts himself as a statesman will be important, no doubt, but I'm more concerned with what he will do rather than say in the upcoming weeks and months.

The Russians have a tough road ahead.


User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1486 times:

Maybe he's embarassed about previous mishandling of Chechnya, or that he did not do enough to go after international terrorism when he had the chance

With all due respect, what are you talking about? Chechnya has not been mishandled -- it has dragged on for reasons beyond the control of Putin. And Putin has done a lot about leading the 'war' on international terrorism, because if you remember, Russia has been official fighting that war since 1999, all the while the international community was telling him that what he was doing was wrong, and expressly worked against Russia. The rest of the world didn't join the fight on international terrorism until the 4th quarter of 2001, a full 2 years, and hundreds of Russian deaths, later. Do you understand the justifiable cynicism for comments such as yours above?

The media, particularly the western media, made a huge deal that Putin didn't straight away travel to Beslan after the situation evolved into a tragedy. With reports of there being 3 different groups being involved, and reports that some of those involved still being on the loose, it is not a good thing to send the leader of a country into an area which has not been totally secured. Then you had the locals saying that Putin came and left under darkness, and not announcing his visit. Whilst understanding where they are coming from, due to the reason above, it is not a good thing to announce to the terrorists that he will be coming. Then you have the media wondering why there was no official announcement from the Kremlin the night it happened. I also understand why he didn't do this. At that stage, the facts were still not completely clear. He needed time to gather these facts from the responsible ministries, and also to travel to the site to inspect the scene for himself. It is better to wait 12 hours and go to the public with an accurate picture of what happened, then rush with no facts and then look like an arse later.

But now the time has come. Putin is being forced to face certain realities. But most importantly, those countries which have in the past worked against Russia, will now be forced to acknowledge that Putin, for the last 5 years, has been doing the right thing. They will be forced to work with Russia, and forget about their own interests which has often helped terrorists within Chechnya. This was the entire point behind Russia seeking official condemnation of Beslan from the UN Security Council. If you have read his speech to the Russian people, you will also have noticed that not once did he mention Chechnya. He did make, however, numerous references to the international terrorism. This will cover not only Chechnya, but also Ingushetia (where there is also a small terrorist movement working in conjunction with the Chechen counterparts). From here on in, we will soon see which countries are serious about this 'war'. The only good thing to come out of this entire tragedy, is that it was televised live around the world, forcing people everywhere to witness what has been occurring since 1999 -- you would struggle to find any reference in the mainstream western media of the Russians foiling a similar event in a school last year (or maybe 2002), except this school was in Chechnya itself.

Domestically, he cannot waiver from the current path. He has made this quite clear in his speech, and those who previously would have wanted a pullout from Chechnya, will now be firmly within his camp. A large proportion of the Russian people could really care less about Chechnya and whether they stay in the Federation or not, however, they do not want to live every day wondering if when they ride to work on the metro, it will be blown up, or will they be blown up by going to a theatre or concert, etc, etc. He does need to do something about the corruption within various government ministries. I would be expecting announcements in the coming days of heads rolling.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13554 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1466 times:
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I think Russia's declared intent to take on terrorism lends more credibility to the argument some have put forth - that we're actively engaged in World War III, and it's not the NATO vs. Warsaw Pact exchange of thermonuclear weapons we thought it would be.

It's present day society vs. the Dark Ages.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/04/russia.putin/index.html

MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin has called the hostage massacre in Beslan an attack on the entire country and made a surprising admission of weakness in the face of terrorism.

Speaking to his nation in a televised address Saturday, the Kremlin leader said the Soviet Union's collapse had left the country unable to react to attacks and warned: "Weak people are beaten."

In his 10-minute address, which followed an early morning visit to Beslan, Putin called the massacre "an attack on our country" and urged Russians to join together to fight terrorism.




"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 6, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1451 times:

EA CO AS: It's present day society vs. the Dark Ages.

Indeed. And I hope the dark ages will lose power in the November elections.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13554 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1439 times:
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Indeed. And I hope the dark ages will lose power in the November elections.

Klaus, are you completely incapable of spewing anything other than "I dislike George W. Bush," or things referring to your dislike of him?

If you have something to offer to this discussion, great - jump in. Otherwise shut the hell up and stop hijacking threads with your childish posts.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1425 times:

EA CO AS: Klaus, are you completely incapable of spewing anything other than "I dislike George W. Bush," or things referring to your dislike of him?

Sorry to disappoint you.  Nuts

But celebrating the Bush administration as a bulwark of "present day society" is difficult to take seriously. I´ve not seen a US administration in my lifetime that was as close to reintroducing medieval witch hunts as this one apparently is.

The problem we´re facing is fanaticism - the incapability and unwillingness to even consider the possibility that one´s own views on anything might be flawed or incomplete and the determination to force one´s view through with military violence if "necessary".

That is the problem. And its close similarity with problem-"solving" strategies from medieval times does indeed justify the label "dark ages".

This kind of fanaticism is not just coming from the terrorists in Beslan, New York and elsewhere; It is also a rather precise description of the official policy in Washington and to some degree in Moscow. (Remember the press conference where Bush was unable (or unwilling) to admit to any mistake he had made in the face of overwhelming evidence?)


Terrorism can never be defeated by out-gunning, out-bombing or out-hating the terrorists. That will only turn more sympathizers into actual terrorists who might still be able to be reasoned with otherwise. And you simply can´t scare a terrorist who is ready to die for his "cause". Bush´s and Putin´s threatening rethoric is simply laughable when it´s about terrorism.

There have been a few cases where terrorism has been defeated in the past. And the essential difference was never in firepower or fanaticism. It was always in finding the decisive weakness of the terrorists - their supporters and sympathizers - and demonstrating to them that the terrorists had neither the means nor the moral justification to actually achieve anything.


Police and sometimes even military means are an important part of fighting terrorism; But as has been said again and again: They are not sufficient to defeat it. You need intelligence (in both meanings of the word), allies, smart communication and a consistent strategy.


I´ve not seen any different russian strategy in Chechnya than bombing the hell out of the place - civilians or no civilians - and I have no doubt that it has turned Chechnya into a fantastically fertile recruitment base for the chechen extremists, since any moderates have never been recognized by Moscow and the people have never had a realistic alternative.

It may provide a convenient pretext to introduce martial law in the near future, but it won´t make anybody safer.

On the other side of the world, Bush´s rethoric may give some americans a warm and fuzzy feeling, but he´s got nothing to show for it. It will only work as long as nobody´s actually looking beyond the curtain of pseudo-patriotic platitudes, but so far too few americans seem to want to know. "Wollt Ihr den totalen Krieg?" has been a wildly successful slogan once before. Just not in real life...  Pissed


"More bombs! More guns! More violence!" has not worked in Palestine, it doesn´t work in Iraq and it doesn´t work in Chechnya.

Surprising? Not really.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13554 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1414 times:
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Terrorism can never be defeated by out-gunning, out-bombing or out-hating the terrorists

You're right...we simply need to "understand" them and be tolerant, right?  Insane

Bush´s and Putin´s threatening rethoric is simply laughable when it´s about terrorism.

Do you actually expect heads of state whose citizenry has been terrorized to explain why these things occurred instead of assuring the public they're taking the steps to keep them from taking place again?

the essential difference... ...was always in finding the decisive weakness of the terrorists - their supporters and sympathizers - and demonstrating to them that the terrorists had neither the means nor the moral justification to actually achieve anything.

So how do you convey this message to a group of supporters and sympathizers whose common link is religion - but a religion that lacks a central authority or single spiritual leader through which that message can even be conveyed in the first place?

Until such a solution is found, the only thing the United States, Russia, and all other nations can do is attempt to kill as many of these zealots as possible in hopes of protecting as many of their citizens as possible.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 10, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1402 times:

EA CO AS: You're right...we simply need to "understand" them and be tolerant, right?

Read my post!

Klaus: Police and sometimes even military means are an important part of fighting terrorism; But as has been said again and again: They are not sufficient to defeat it. You need intelligence (in both meanings of the word), allies, smart communication and a consistent strategy.

[...] finding the decisive weakness of the terrorists - their supporters and sympathizers - and demonstrating to them that the terrorists had neither the means nor the moral justification to actually achieve anything.


Emotionally, everybody who´s scared to death wants simple answers, retaliation, a quick fix - but all these things are simply not to be had in the real world. Promising them is simply dishonest. It is difficult, it takes time and it is always complicated. But in this case, the complicated solution is the only one that actually works - even if it´s a somewhat harder sell than the allegedly simple solutions that just won´t work.


EA CO AS: Do you actually expect heads of state whose citizenry has been terrorized to explain why these things occurred instead of assuring the public they're taking the steps to keep them from taking place again?

Not really. I acknowledge the propriety of most of Bush´s speeches immediately after 9-11 and of Putin´s recent one quoted in the other thread.

But: There needs to be a point where consolation of the population needs to be put aside and the real fight against the attackers needs to be started. And if at that point a responsible leader cannot step beyond the simplifications and tackle the actual problem with the intelligence and the complexity that is necessary, well, then I must say he fails his population badly. There´s a reason why political leaders are at least supposed to be intelligent and wise, even if they may fall short of that ideal to varying degrees (as everybody else would). Getting the best you have up there is still imperative in a crisis. Sound and effective policy are far more important than flashy delivery and endless repetition of the same hollow propaganda.


EA CO AS: So how do you convey this message to a group of supporters and sympathizers whose common link is religion - but a religion that lacks a central authority or single spiritual leader through which that message can even be conveyed in the first place?

You don´t need to hijack the Pope to get a message across to the catholics, don´t you think?  Wink/being sarcastic

I share your concern about the blatant lack of moral leadership by most muslim clerics; But actions speak louder than words. Afghanistan is widely recognized as a justified campaign; There is much too little support for a peaceful development, but there are indications some of it may still take root. Even in Iraq, the support will not be entirely in vain.

The problem is that the attack on Iraq is perceived as an illegal invasion by almost everybody. Only in the USA a relevant number of people have modified the justification for the invasion post facto from Iraq "being a threat" (before) to Iraq "needing to be freed of Saddam" (after). Most people are not impressed and remember quite well what the official original reasons were supposed to be.

When you are perceived as corrupt (see above) and morally compromised (Abu Ghraib), you simply can´t reach the people.

Reaching potential sympathizers of terrorists is not really that difficult: "Simply" act in a way that they can see you´re recognizing their valid grievances and interests. There are even a few largely independent and widely viewed arab satellite news networks, so the infrastructure is there. Too bad they don´t have much positive to report at this time.


EA CO AS: Until such a solution is found, the only thing the United States, Russia, and all other nations can do is attempt to kill as many of these zealots as possible in hopes of protecting as many of their citizens as possible.

That is simply a shortsighted, stupid and ultimately counterproductive strategy. Others have much more experience with the fight against terrorism (and even with its extermination in some cases). Listening to them once in a while may help prevent the kind of death toll that´s been racked up again by several american servicemen and -women today (why is nobody counting the iraqi deaths, by the way?).  Sad


User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 35
Reply 11, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1393 times:

In résumé, Far West behaviour do not work against terrorism, what is needed is a delicate balance between diplomacy and firmness.
None are found in the defense industry, but both exist in nature.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13554 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1389 times:
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You don´t need to hijack the Pope to get a message across to the catholics, don´t you think?

Definitely not, but I think you can acknowledge that there's a world of difference between Catholicism and Islam in that there is an organized, official source of doctrine and ideology for the Catholic faith, whereas Islam not only lacks this, but has potentially hundreds or even thousands of mullahs and imams out there claiming to have spiritual authority to create doctrine at will - many directly contradicting one another!

Just imagine for a moment that all Catholic bishops and priests individually were able to hand down their own interpretations of the Bible as official church doctrine. It would be chaos!

Much in the same way that terrorism is so difficult because there is no one nation to target, the same can be said for radical forms of Islam because there is no one spiritual leader to focus on to facilitate change.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 13, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1382 times:

EA CO AS: Definitely not, but I think you can acknowledge that there's a world of difference between Catholicism and Islam in that there is an organized, official source of doctrine and ideology for the Catholic faith, whereas Islam not only lacks this, but has potentially hundreds or even thousands of mullahs and imams out there claiming to have spiritual authority to create doctrine at will - many directly contradicting one another!

Sure. But as much as you don´t need to go through the one pope you don´t need to go through thousands of mullahs and imams in order to get your point across. Muslims still watch TV, and the new channels are quite popular. Offering them convincing policy could really make a positive impact just as much as Abu Ghraib has made a devastating one.


EA CO AS: Much in the same way that terrorism is so difficult because there is no one nation to target, the same can be said for radical forms of Islam because there is no one spiritual leader to focus on to facilitate change.

You don´t turn radicals and their supporters around by having their crazed radical leaders reverse course (although that would be nice); You turn them around by offering them a viable alternative to radicalism.

And if reasonable communication in both directions is seen as effective, most people don´t voluntarily choose the radical alternative. All these things are "only" matters of degree - there is no "perfect solution", only a long and arduous process of building defenses at the same time as bridges to the reasonable people with progressive improvements in the situation, the occasional backlash notwithstanding.

Radicals need two things:

An enemy: You need to demolish their propaganda image - prove to their supporters they are wrong (the radicals themselves will usually not be too impressed). Build a moral case that can convince your target audience - not just the voters at home!

A support base: You need to erode their support base by convincing them that radicalism will not improve their situation and won´t give them satisfaction nor a (moral) victory. If there is nobody to hide, feed or supply them any more, the radicals will have little choice but to retreat.


User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1379 times:

The rest of the world didn't join the fight on international terrorism until the 4th quarter of 2001

Ahem, I must contradict you and say that Israel's been fighting the war on terrorism up until even before its creation. Jews had to fight back attacks on her civilians before 1948 (i.e. Arab Riots of 1936-1939). There were the Fedayeen attacks constantly killing civilians on buses and restaurants up until the Suez campaign of 1956 (which destroyed them). There was the shelling of Israeli cities and farms from the Golan Heights in Syria. There was indiscriminate shelling and bombing of Israeli cities by Arab armies in 1967 and 1973. There was the Olympics Massacre, the Entebbe hijackings, and the growth and expansion of PLO massacres and terrorism in the seventies with the emergence of Yasser Arafat. There was the PLO attacks and infiltrations from northern Lebanon into the Galilee for years in the late seventies and early eighties. There was and is Hizbullah attacks into Northern Israel. And finally, there were two terrible rounds of violence (intefadahs) in the last two decades, one which Israel is currently squashing effectively (if you ask me).

So if you ask me, Israel has been side by side with Russia since 1999 fighting the war on terrorism.



NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 15, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1374 times:

The USA was one of the few remaining countries basically unaware of the terrorist threat up to 9-11... Most others were far less surprised, even if still shocked much the same...  Sad

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 16, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1344 times:

According to the german ARD Tagesschau just a few minutes ago, Putin has conceded that russian troops committed human rights violations in Chechyna and that there was widespread corruption; He also acknowldged the need to get more involved with the chechen civilian population.

This is coming very, very late. But maybe there´s still hope to turn the situation around again... Let´s hope for the best!


User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1333 times:

You don´t need to hijack the Pope to get a message across to the catholics, don´t you think?

Definitely not, but I think you can acknowledge that there's a world of difference between Catholicism and Islam in that there is an organized, official source of doctrine and ideology for the Catholic faith, whereas Islam not only lacks this, but has potentially hundreds or even thousands of mullahs and imams out there claiming to have spiritual authority to create doctrine at will - many directly contradicting one another!
Just imagine for a moment that all Catholic bishops and priests individually were able to hand down their own interpretations of the Bible as official church doctrine. It would be chaos!


You may be right, but keep in mind that many, many people who consider themselves Catholic do not always follow everything the Pope says. The Vatican's ban on artificial birth control is the most obvious example. In addition, certain Protestant denominations such as the Southern Baptists seem to function quite well and avoid chaos even though each congregation is fully autonomous in doctrinal matters.



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineJcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 18, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1332 times:

It sounds like the Russian government and Vladimir Putin are using Janet Reno as a special hostage situation consultant. Seriously, what an awful situation the Russians have continually put themselves in. What? Does the anti-terror manual cover killing as many hostages as possible yourself before going after the terrorists? Yes, the terrorists need to be killed or captured, but at the price they are doing it makes the terrorists look like the real winners in these situations--not only in hostage death tolls but politically as well. I'm not saying negotiating with terrorists is a real great strategy, but I think at the same time there has to be a medium between that and a couple hundred dead school children.


America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1313 times:

Jcs17, I suggest you too get a clue. If it wasn't for the terrorists setting off explosives (surely killing many people instantly), the situation would not have degenerated as it did. No-one expected it, and there was only one outcome. And unfortunately, that was a loss of life. Nice way to put the blame on the Russians. what an awful situation the Russians have continually put themselves in. I think not.

User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1301 times:

Also, Putin is getting fed up with the constant criticism in recent days from the 'west', in particular from Europe and NATO, who keep saying to talk to the terrorists from Chechnya. He has obviously had enough, and has been quoted of telling reporters:

No-one has a moral right to tell us to talk to child killers..........Why don't you meet Osama bin Laden, invite him to Brussels or to the White House and engage in talks, ask him what he wants and give it to him so he leaves you in peace?...........You find it possible to set some limitations in your dealings with these bastards, so why should we talk to people who are child-killers?

Talk about a


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 21, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1294 times:

Russophile, you lose some of your right to feel indignant when your troops behave like marauding hordes instead of like a regular army. Same effect as with Abu Ghraib in Iraq, only it´s happening in Chechnya for years already.

Things aren´t that simple.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 22, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1289 times:

According to the german ARD Tagesschau just a few minutes ago, Putin has conceded that russian troops committed human rights violations in Chechyna and that there was widespread corruption;

The only solution is to allow full democracy and right of secession for the Chechnyans.

Perhaps the West can help by imposing economic sanctions on Russia until Putin agrees.

Long live Chechnyan freedom.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 23, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1284 times:

You´re asking for it, don´t you...?  Wink/being sarcastic

User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1281 times:

According to the german ARD Tagesschau just a few minutes ago, Putin has conceded that russian troops committed human rights violations in Chechyna and that there was widespread corruption;

You mean to say that the 'west' only just learnt of this? Putin admitted some years ago that some Russian troops have participated in abuses outside of what their orders state. And he has also stated that some years ago that those responsible for the abuses will be held responsible and made to answer for their crimes. There have already charges laid and troops sent to jail for their abuses.

The abuses are most certainly not authorised by the military hierarchy in Moscow.


25 Jcs17 : Jcs17, I suggest you too get a clue. If it wasn't for the terrorists setting off explosives (surely killing many people instantly), the situation woul
26 Klaus : Russophile: You mean to say that the 'west' only just learnt of this? That he mentioned it now after the Beslan attack? Yes, indeed. The usual rethori
27 Yyz717 : The problem with most Russians is that they still believe that they are a superpower, a force to be reckoned with, when in reality their country is in
28 Russophile : Actually, no one knows yet for sure what happened in terms of the order of events. There are some reports that do suggest that a bomb was set off beca
29 Yyz717 : Do you support what these terrorists did, and are doing? I support the right of people to be free. At any cost if need be. The Chechnyans deserve the
30 Klaus : Yyz717: Russia can solve the problem by offering Chechnya independence. Today. Otherwise, the fighting continues. It doesn´t work that way, either. T
31 Yyz717 : It doesn´t work that way, either. That would only install the warlords du jour as de-facto dictators. Chechnya is better off being run by its own war
32 Post contains images Klaus : Except for the warlords themselves, I doubt you´ll find many takers with that theory...
33 Russophile : Chechnya is better off being run by its own warlords than by warlords in Moscow. This is 100% undeniable proof that Yyz717 has absolutely NO idea on t
34 Jcs17 : But Jcs17, are you in the same vein at Yyz717? Do you support what these terrorists did, and are doing? No. I don't support terrorism. I don't support
35 Yyz717 : Also, the people of Russia proper, Ingushetia, Dagestan and Ossetia (north and south), were not better off by Chechnya being run by its own warlords.
36 OV735 : Russophile: "Putin admitted some years ago that some Russian troops have participated in abuses outside of what their orders state." Knowing how chara
37 Post contains images Russophile : I don't think that the Chechens are right by resorting to terrorist activity against Russia, but at the same time, Russia is not in the right. If you
38 777236ER : Russia went into Chechnya in 1999 with almost the same force that the US used in Iraq in 2003, and look at the result. It's clear to see that force do
39 Yyz717 : Again, all Russians first and foremost want stability. With stability you can not have peace, you can not have democracy, you can not have freedom. Ru
40 BarfBag : Counter-insurgency is a manpower-intensive activity, and it puts immense psychological stresses on the armed forces - more so in the case of poorly tr
41 Jasepl : Of course there’s no parallel between Russia and America in this aspect. The situations are completely different – just not in the way some poster
42 Post contains images Russophile : Russia wants "stability" according to ITS rules. This is not stability -- it's dictatorship and anarchy. Yet another post which shows you have no clue
43 PROSA : Tatarstan is a highly developed industrialised region, with a GDP (in 1991) larger than Lithuania and Estonia put together, and had more than enough r
44 Russophile : In response to the last sentence of my post (Reply #4), the President of Severnaya Ossetia has announced that the entire regional government will be r
45 PROSA : And in other news, Lt-Col Yuri Baluyevsky, the newRussian General Chief of Staff, has gone on the record and asserted that the Russian Federation now
46 777236ER : Russia is not in the right. Russia and Russians need to realize that their actions are spawning these terrorist atrocities. Now just stretch it a LITT
47 Yyz717 : Dudayev seized power in 1991 in a coup (the government of the time being forced to step down), he declared independence (like Tatarstan) but also inst
48 PROSA : Let Chechnya separate if they want. It's called democracy. All well and good, but keep in mind that if Chechnya does gain independence, it will most a
49 Airplay : Nearly half of the terrorists were Arabs as well, pointing a solid finger towards Al Qaeda or other similar groups. Oh really? So if someone commiting
50 Yyz717 : All well and good, but keep in mind that if Chechnya does gain independence, it will most assuredly not be a democracy. Well, Russia is not a function
51 PROSA : All well and good, but keep in mind that if Chechnya does gain independence, it will most assuredly not be a democracy. Well, Russia is not a function
52 BENNETT123 : I do not pretend to know the answer to Chechnya. One thing that I do know is that I would not want the Beslan Group to run my country. The apparent a
53 PROSA : However just walking away would lead to Russian disintergrating. That is the nightmare scenario. The result would be a bloodbath. I'm not so sure, as
54 Russophile : I have the solution. How about we pack up ALL Chechen people, and repatriate them. Where to repatriate them? How about Toronto, Canada? How about we t
55 Post contains images Yyz717 : I have the solution. How about we pack up ALL Chechen people, and repatriate them. Where to repatriate them? How about Toronto, Canada? How about we t
56 Russophile : Tatarstan's relative prosperity may be a major part of the reason why its people seem happy with the status quo. To some extent yes. But at the same t
57 Airplay : If you don't have your throat slit or head blown off directly, you will likely succumb to being a victim of crossfire. You have not an iota of what yo
58 Jasepl : I agree with YYZ with respect to granting Chechens their homeland. Russia's resistance will not benefit it or Chechnia and will lead only to conflict
59 Post contains links Russophile : As mentioned before, Canada is already a very diverse multi-cultural country. It is not uncommon to see Bosnians and Serbs, Jews and Arabs, Irish Cath
60 Yyz717 : You have Latvians/Estonians/Lithuanians living with Russians. You have Koreans living with Japanese...... And they too, are living and working togethe
61 Russophile : If you bothered to read anything, you would have noticed that I was talking about WITHIN RUSSIA. There are 30,000 Estonians, 30,000 Latvians, and 45,0
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