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My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq  
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2653 times:

First off, I want to say this isn't an anti-Bush post, but rather an anti-War in Iraq post. I absolutely supported the war in Afghanistan but only wish we had concentrated our forces and intent in finishing the war there.

But my BIGGEST problem with this war is that ultimately there was something like $200 Billion dollars spent on it, which in the time of a dreary economy, the money could have been better spent. It could have been spent on stuff like health care, education, and helping fix poverty! Poverty for crying out loud, here we are the richest country in the world, and we have 30 some odd million people in our country who are not getting enough food everyday. That absolutely disgusts me, I just only wish we would fix the problems in our country first. We have people getting rotten educations, senior citizens not getting medicine, and I can guarantee you that if that $200 billion had gone to fixing that, we would be a lot better off now, and Bush would probably have no problem whatsoever being re-elected.

I also understand that 9-11 changed things in the world, but I still don't believe the war in Iraq was justified, especially since we weren't finished in Afghanistan. I'm just starting to get this disgusted feeling with the state of affairs in our own country, I wan't our government to fix it up before anything else.


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56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAnsettB727 From Australia, joined Mar 2004, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2631 times:

I sympathise, Tbar220. No matter what one's political persuasion, you can't deny that the States could kind of use a universal health care plan for all (as opposed to scores of millions going without health insurance).

User currently offlineLHMark From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 7255 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2628 times:

Tbar,

Why do you hate America?

Signed, 1/2 of A.net



"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
User currently offlineWietse From Netherlands, joined Oct 2001, 3809 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2619 times:

Why do you hate America?

Because he is being rational instead of overly patriotic.

Signed,

The other half of A.net



Wietse de Graaf
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13638 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2614 times:
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No matter what one's political persuasion, you can't deny that the States could kind of use a universal health care plan for all

We already have one.

It's called making enough money to pay for your medical bills.

Oh, I'm sorry - you meant a PUBLICLY-FUNDED health care plan, didn't you? My bad.  Insane



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineDLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

It's called making enough money to pay for your medical bills.

Do you close your eyes when you walk by the poor, or do you look away?

Or do you spit on them?


User currently offlineFJWH From Netherlands, joined May 2004, 969 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2596 times:

Wietse just entered my respected user list!

Tjap!



FlightS in the next 3 months: MSP, PHX, MEM, NCE, TFS, BCN. All round trips from AMS
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13638 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2589 times:
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It's called making enough money to pay for your medical bills.

Do you close your eyes when you walk by the poor, or do you look away?

Or do you spit on them?


Typical liberal bullshit - if I don't like the idea of publicly-funded healthcare, then by God that MUST mean that I avert my eyes from and/or spit on the poor, right?  Insane

C'mon DLKAPA, even you're better than to sink to tossing out this drivel.

And not that it's your business, but I've helped many a poor person get a job so they could get back on their feet. Can you say the same?



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 35
Reply 8, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2586 times:

EA CO AS, one factor that distinguishes a modern and cohesive society from a collection of individuals under a common flag and anthem is/are the social mechanisms put in place to ensure the solidarity between the citizens.

If your soldiers had the same mentality as you show, you would have no army re: the hell with the others as long as I have my rifle and my ammunition.
One day you might loose the first or run short of the latter...do not think it cannot happen to you...unless your name is Gates or the likes.

Besides the selfishness (and everybody is to a certain degree), understanding and accepting to leave part of your gains to the administration for social purposes is certainly more "human" than accepting to pay for tanks and planes (and the occasional war).






User currently offlineDan-air From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2574 times:

But my BIGGEST problem with this war is that ultimately there was something like $200 Billion dollars spent on it,

Dude, the $200 Billion is just for openers! Supporting the current deployment levels and rebuilding costs has a burn rate of what? $1 billion per week? More?
Where does that dough come from? Any ideas Bush fans?


User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 47
Reply 10, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2568 times:

Well, to use just one example:

US Postal Service. Government ran? Yes!

Slow...inefficient.....indifferent service....disorganized.....expensive, old, dilapidated, outdated equipment.


United Parcel Service: Government ran? No! But it does basically the same thing that the USPS does, only faster, better, cheaper, and with better service, with the best modern equipment available today.


Hmmm....what makes them so different?


User currently offlineAdria From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2563 times:

"But my BIGGEST problem with this war is that ultimately there was something like $200 Billion dollars spent on it, which in the time of a dreary economy, the money could have been better spent."..............finally someone is listening to the people around the world which know this a lot longer.

"I absolutely supported the war in Afghanistan but only wish we had concentrated our forces and intent in finishing the war there."............I see that you have been thinking about this subject so let me just ask you one thing: Do you know how many people died in Afghanistan during the war?? Have you ever thought about that? I hear a lot about those people that sadly died on 9-11 but when are you going to think about those poor people in Afghanistan and Iraq????? They didn't wanted any war!! And the number of people that were killed(in Afghanistan and Iraq) is far higher!!!!!
You have got all the CIA and the military is watching every square foot of those countries and they thought that bin laden was in Afghanistan???This war was only because they had to destroy something!!!

And were are those atom bombs and other weapons of mass destruction? 95% of the world population knew that Iraq hasn't got any! Know even the president says that there are no bombs! And know AGAIN the majority supports Bush! Arnie comes and gives a little speech and people are all thrilled. How "stupid" must you be to listen to this crap! Someone without any education is a politician. Where else in the world can that be??

Let's forget for a second about saddam and bin laden and think of those(still) living in Afghanistan and Iraq. Every day we talk about the people that died on 9-11, no one seems to care about those civilians that died in Afghanistan and Iraq! And don't give me this "we wanted to help Iraq by removing saddam" we all know that oil was the main reason. And if you don't believe me than ask yourself why there is no military action in North Korea?? They say they have the atomic bomb and yet the US government wants to talk with them.

I don't hate America and I don't hate the American people, but those thing are wrong!


User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 47
Reply 12, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2553 times:

95% of the world population knew that Iraq hasn't got any!

Indulge me.

Exactly how is it statistically more likely that any one random person-say in Uganda...or Burkina Faso...or Sri Lanka going to know this and your average American not? How did the rest of the world get privy to the inner goings-on of Iraq that somehow the US missed?


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21485 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2543 times:

Matt D: Exactly how is it statistically more likely that any one random person-say in Uganda...or Burkina Faso...or Sri Lanka going to know this and your average American not? How did the rest of the world get privy to the inner goings-on of Iraq that somehow the US missed?

obviously unreliable and unplausible information + propaganda + gullible public = people believe

obviously unreliable and unplausible information +/- propaganda - gullible public = people won´t believe




User currently offlineWellHung From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2535 times:

Interesting how some people have no problem with the government spending their hard-earned money on an unjustified war, but once someone suggests it be used to help people in their own country, they immediately get defensive.

As the thread starter said, if Bush didn't so sorely miscalculate this war and spent the money on helping Americans that don't have oil ties instead (or didn't spend it at all), the election would just be a technicality.

Matt D - where did you get your information? Try walking into a UPS store with a letter and $.37 and see how far it gets you. Sending a Letter UPS 2nd day from LA to NY costs approximately 4x more than USPS priority mail. A package costs almost 2x as much. I have never had a letter or package lost or damaged using USPS. Try collecting on UPS insurance if they damage something. Then you'll really know what red tape is all about.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13638 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2532 times:
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obviously unreliable and unplausible information

That information was apparently so "obviously" unreliable and implausible that the intelligence agencies of Great Britain and Russia believed it, along with the U.S. intelligence community.  Insane




"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineAdria From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2529 times:

"How did the rest of the world get privy to the inner goings-on of Iraq that somehow the US missed? " if they watched the TV when Powell was showing the "evidence" that those weapons exist to the UN and the UN didn't believe!


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21485 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2523 times:

EA CO AS: That information was apparently so "obviously" unreliable and implausible that the intelligence agencies of Great Britain and Russia believed it, along with the U.S. intelligence community.

So how many russian troops do you see in Iraq?

Seriously, both services had nothing convincing. Everybody distrusted Saddam, but nobody had any reliable intelligency about actual transgressions. Small wonder since those did not exist.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2521 times:

which in the time of a dreary economy

Because he is being rational





...hmm, slight contradiction we seem to have here  Laugh out loud


User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2518 times:

Do you close your eyes when you walk by the poor, or do you look away?

Or do you spit on them?


I consider myself a religious man (Jewish), and if anything my religion says to support the poor in whatever ways you can. To walk by them and look away when instead you can be giving a helping hand is shameful really. I think this could apply with all aspects of life.

Now, I'm not saying that the government should be religious, but in some sense of the morals and thoughts that religion puts forth, our society can better its morals and ideals. For example, helping the poor! Helping the needy, who for some reason or another can't make it on their own.

I don't think its liberal bullshit, it think its the good of helping other people. God knows I've been blessed with a really easy upbringing, and the least I can do or should be willing to do is help others out when they need it.

***

On the same topic of religion, since my people were once slaves, why shouldn't I support the freeing the Iraqi people? Its actually something I have considered, and on that note would have supported the war in Iraq. IF that was the pretense as to why we went to war, but it obviously wasn't and if you ask me this was not the original intentions of our government (as we all know from the UN speeches and presidential speeches, etc.). If our government made it clear without and fogginess that our intent in Iraq was to go in and "free" the Iraqi people, then I would have supported it. Even if it did mean spending those $200 billion dollars on another country.

My freedom now from slavery as a Jew, my taste of what its like to live a normal life, a life of freedom in the United States is enough for me to think that every other citizen of this world should experience it. But I feel we've been going about it completely the wrong way.



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User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 47
Reply 20, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2515 times:

I see nothing wrong with helping people who are legitimately in need. This includes people who have been stricken with unexpected illness or injury, a housewife who's husband of 30 years dies or abandons her, a teenager or kid who is a victim of abuse and/or abandoned by his/her parents, and so on.

However, we should not give one thin dime to those who are "in need" as a result of their own carelessness, irresponsibility, or laziness.

This includes, but is not limited to:

illegal aliens (including the children. As a parent, it is your responsibility to make sure you can take care of your kids. If we are to "take care" of these kids too, we will do so by taking them away from the parents and placing them for adoption. Sorry, you can't have it both ways.)

multi generation welfare recipients

teenage/out of wedlock parents/children

kids who were more concerned about looking cool than doing their homework

people who continue having kids despite not being able to support them on their own income.

alcohol/drug abusers who think that mandatory rehab/schooling are "against their will".

Third strike criminals.



User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2511 times:

ConcordeBoy,

I'm sure you could put a little more thought into your post, come on, give it a try. It wouldn't hurt really. Really, a little thought? A little comprehension? A little critical analysis about what we're talking about?

My thoughts are if you don't have anything good to say...



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User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13638 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2509 times:
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Try walking into a UPS store with a letter and $.37 and see how far it gets you. Sending a Letter UPS 2nd day from LA to NY costs approximately 4x more than USPS priority mail. A package costs almost 2x as much.

Thanks for highlighting the inherent differences in the mindsets, as well.

You've got your mind made up that sending a letter should never cost more than $0.37, no matter if it's a government-run entity or a privately-run one.

If you only have that amount, then sure - the USPS can help. But if you want service at their office locations, be sure to bring a good book. They're not too conveniently located these days either.

On the other hand, while UPS is more expensive, you can find them in more locations, they're staffed to have very quick service, and will offer better service.

The same thing could be applied to healthcare - gov't funded would be "cheap" to users (but paid in ways you don't see up front like excessive taxes), but inefficient, with long waits and inconvenient scheduling.

The current system is more expensive to users up-front, but you can get service on-demand and with far less waiting and inefficiency involved.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineBragi From Iceland, joined May 2001, 218 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2507 times:

It's a very sad state of affairs.
All those money are used to rebuild a nation where the majority hates America, meanwhile millions of people in the US are without health insurance. Good/inexpensive health care is something that everybody should enjoy, and fiancial situation shouldn't matter.

How can anyone justify this war, regarding the loss of human life and the cost?
I fully sympathize with you Tbar.



Muhammad Ali: "Superman don’t need no seat belt." Flight Attendant: "Superman don’t need no airplane, either."
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2502 times:

However, we should not give one thin dime to those who are "in need" as a result of their own carelessness, irresponsibility, or laziness.

Alright, that makes sense. But how in the world do find out who is "legitimate" for government aid or not? How do we sort it out, without making more of a bureaucratic hassle and mess? If you ask me, its just not possible, considering the numbers and statistics we've seen (15% of our population living in poverty).

When donating or helping the poor, you cannot be selective. The true intent is to help the people who need it, whether you feel it is appropriate or not. Because you can only hope and pray that it is doing good and going to the right people.

And if you ask me, eventually (it may take a long time), it will help out. Obviously some will go to waste, and some people are just lost causes who will never get out of the gutter, but that should not be up to us to decide.

Considering we're spending $200 billion dollars in Iraq, would you have a problem with that same amount of money instead being spent on civil programs in the U.S.?



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25 Tbar220 : Bragi, You also bring up an interesting point. On the same thought, all this money in Iraq is surely going to rebuild the country. It has given millio
26 Matt D : Good question. Sorry, I don't think that a blanket "all you can eat" buffet of money is the answer. I just don't buy your "well we don't know who need
27 Tbar220 : Matt D, Well maybe, I just don't have faith that government bureaucracies can be anything but inefficient and not worth our time. But maybe that can c
28 Adria : The governemnt things are really not worth spending our time, but that's only my opinion
29 WellHung : Only a complete idiot would pay 10x more than they have to (that's the difference between a stamp and UPS's lowest tier service) just to circumvent so
30 AA7771stClass : Regarding the USPS, sometimes we have to do what is helpful, not what will make money. If the U.S. would focus less on profits and more on people who
31 Matt D : I think the only difference of opinion here is question of eligibility and entitlement. You think that anyone and everyone should get it. I say no. If
32 Klaus : Most european societies are being remodeled right now (or have been, recently) not to "sink or swim" but to "we won´t let you sink, but you´ll have
33 N229NW : Thanks for the "other half of A.net" comment Wietse. You beat me to it! Here's a thought for all those people who have shifted their justification of
34 Matt D : Social cruelty Defined as what? Not forcing responsible taxpayers to foot the bill for those who are, as I've already said irresponsible, careless, an
35 Prebennorholm : $200bn, that could ease for instance health care budgets somewhat, but as a onetimer it won't change the world. $200bn is $700 per US citizen. Last we
36 Post contains images Klaus : Matt D: Defined as what? "Sink or swim" basically sums it up. Even in our modern societies people can get into bad situations even while they do their
37 DLKAPA : Typical liberal bullshit - if I don't like the idea of publicly-funded healthcare, then by God that MUST mean that I avert my eyes from and/or spit on
38 Post contains images Slider : Tbar's right. Lord knows the $9 TRILLION + that we've already spent on the war on poverty just isn't enough.
39 EA CO AS : Typical liberal bullshit - if I don't like the idea of publicly-funded healthcare, then by God that MUST mean that I avert my eyes from and/or spit on
40 NonRevKing : I don't see a reason for me (or anyone else for that matter) to be taxed at a higher rate in the name of providing free healthcare. But you're being t
41 EA CO AS : I don't see a reason for me (or anyone else for that matter) to be taxed at a higher rate in the name of providing free healthcare. But you're being t
42 NonRevKing : Health care for MY country. Not "liberation" for another. Besides, we're less safe now than before Iraq. Our enemies are more determined. Don't believ
43 Post contains images EA CO AS : Our enemies are more determined. Don't believe me? Just wait, you'll see. Wow - you almost sound like you're hopeful for a terrorist attack within the
44 NonRevKing : Hopeful? God no. I don't want it to be me or anyone I love. I don't want it to happen again period. I'm just not brainwashed by this adminsitration in
45 Dl021 : Health care for MY country. Not "liberation" for another OK so we have health care here, and it is available to everyone. Our system may not be the ea
46 Post contains images Klaus : Dl021, please use paragraphs, once in a while; Your posts are quite hard to read. Thank you.
47 Dl021 : Klaus, You are correct. I will edit the previous post, and try to remember this in the future. SOmetimes I ge tto writing and submit quickly as my wif
48 Iakobos : Preben, Are you sure you are wearing the right glasses ? - Gas was used against Iran > was also used by French, Belgians, British, Germans, Austro-Hun
49 Post contains images Klaus : Almost: Vielen Dank! ("Many thanks") It´s Danke! only as in "thanks!". You´re welcome.
50 Dl021 : Preben I agree with much of what you said, but damn those are expensive eyeglasses. Here we pay much less for even the nicer ones, did you get designe
51 NonRevKing : The "" used over the word liberation indicates that nonrevking is unwilling to share the blessings of liberty with others around the world, as well as
52 Scottieprecord : A Machiavellian take on this: I would much rather pay for the ousting of a dictator who is possibly a threat to my life or the life of someone I care
53 Dl021 : NonRevKing Do you not remember why Marie Antionette is infamous...quotes such as this one are legend. Your Majesty, the peasants have no bread! "Well,
54 Boeing7E7 : But my BIGGEST problem with this war is that ultimately there was something like $200 Billion dollars spent on it, which in the time of a dreary econo
55 Post contains images Tasha : Just a quick questing of these weapons of mass destruction... What is known: 1. Iraq produced them 2. Iraq used them 3. Iraq used them during the mid9
56 TYSGoVols : Here is a bit of redneckj phil;osophy for you and please think about it before just blowing it off. What would we spend $200 B on if we had no country
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