Logan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2354 times:
I'd like to offer my thoughts on this subject, and I hope we can start a rational discussion (foolish hope on my part, but here goes).
The fundamental question of life is, to me, why are we here? I believe that the reason we are here is to figure out why we are here (sounds so simple, it's almost silly, but please, think about it). Put another way, our purpose in life is to figure out how we fit into the entirety of things. I could digress into the possibility of reincarnation, enlightenment of all beings, etc., but suffice it to say that if we kill a convicted criminal, no matter how repulsive the person or the crime, that person can no longer contemplate what is, in my opinion, the purpose of life, and cannot come to terms with it. It may be that they would not contemplate this even if they were to live, but to remove the possibility of someone being able to eventually understand what their/our life is about, EVEN IF THEY TOOK THAT AWAY FROM ANOTHER PERSON, is, in my opinion, wrong. Battlestations, everyone.
Logan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2288 times:
Alright, now that we have all discussed what the word "wrong" means, I must apologize to all that I have offended. Apparently, the subject matter is of no consequence to anyone, but my supposed or alleged forcing of my opinion as some kind of absolute truth by use of this horrible word has rendered me a blackguard. It's my opinion - to me, it is the truth, that's how strongly I feel about it. To me, there's really not too much point in having an opinion unless you express it and embrace it.
N6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2283 times:
I used to be very pro-death penalty but two independent arguments swayed my mind. The first is that there is a far too great error rate for death penalty convictions. In the past couple of year many people convicted of crimes for which they were awaiting execution have not just had their sentences commuted but been found not guilty of the crime they were originally charged. The state cannot go around executing innocent people. Even if the error rate is a fraction of 1% this is unacceptable.
Secondly, I heard a great quote from MLK:
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. You may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. You may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate, nor establish love. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
How can the state seek to end murder by killing. The argument is oxymoronic.
Furthermore, it has been demonstrated that the cost of executing an inmate is far more than keeping them in jail for the rest of there life. Other than the shear eye for an eye satisfaction that the death penalty gives society, I really don't believe that there are any policy reasons supporting it.
Logan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2270 times:
Klaus and N6376m: Yes, there are some logistical issues also, on both sides of this issue-the reality of executing an innocent person is completely indefensible. Consider also the disproportionate racial make-up of deathrow inmates (at least in the US-I don't think I need to elaborate). On the flip side, the cost of maintaining a prisoner for life has been an argument for execution; however, N6376m, you indicated that the cost was greater to execute them. Where is this from-I'm interested to see that?
Qb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2238 times:
that person can no longer contemplate what is, in my opinion, the purpose of life,
I think this excerpt pretty much sums up what is WRONG with death penalty: it's not a penalty; it's a state-sponsored murder.
A penalty, by definition, is something that is limited in time. It is inflicted so that the person getting a penalty takes this time to think, to reflect and, hopefully, to repent. But death, as a penalty, does not make sense, as it takes away the opportunity of an individual to accomplish these duties.
Death is for eternity and we all know that eternity lasts a long, long time, especially toward the end...
Logan, nice of you to try and establish a philosophical and ethical discussion here. But the radicalism (especially far-right radicalism) that pollutes this site prevents those kind of discussions. Sorry that I have to break this news to you...
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
Sabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2235 times:
Furthermore, it has been demonstrated that the cost of executing an inmate is far more than keeping them in jail for the rest of there life.
Does an execution really cost that much?
A few days ago, a dangerous murdered escaped from prison. He shot at several police officers while running away. This piece of shit was arrested again after a week, and is now again in jail. This is the kind of people that deserves death penalty, as they cause nothing but trouble anyway.
Another case is a serial murdered who first raped young girls, and killed them afterwards. Another one that deserves death penalty in my opinion.
I'm generally against it, but for examples like the above, I would like to see it being introduced in Belgium.
N6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2234 times:
I don't have the figure in front of me (I'll search for it tonight) but I remember reading an article in the WSJ from about 2 years ago - about the time the IL governor suspended all executions that provided the figure.
The article included all cost - including the additional costs of a trial for a capital offense - the defense spends a heck of a lot of money on experts when the offense is capital, and all the appeals in coming up with that figure.
Logan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2225 times:
Qb001: Good point about the word penalty - it's not like this is just a 5-minute major. Also, I welcome dissenting points of view; that's the only way to have a true discussion. Hopefully, when they all come in from waxing their pick-up trucks and polishing their gun racks, we can see if the conservatives can present their side. So far, the only real dissent has been my use of the "wrong." (so much for being civil)
Luv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12302 posts, RR: 45
Reply 23, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2217 times:
Well for starters I do not have a truck or a gun, thank you very much for that stereotype! I am for it, an eye for an eye. I do believe even though it does not work to deter others that right there is not a reason to no longer have a death penalty. Lung cancer does not stop people from smoking.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 66
Reply 24, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2219 times:
One fact that is not subject to debate.
No person who has been executed has ever committed another crime.
While I am also opposed to the death penalty, I cannot think of a reasonable alternative. I am furious that my tax dollar is being used to keep these people alive. The cost of keeping a person in prison would keep them at Harvard, it would keep them in a nice cabin aboard a cruise ship, it would keep them in a house like mine with a car like mine and they' never have to work to pay for it. That is unacceptable.
I believe it is time for those of us who do not commit crimes to file a class-action suit against all of those who do commit crimes to recover 100% of the cost of having a police force, district attorney's office and a jail/prison system.
Back to the death penalty:
I also have to reject the assertion, and we hear it all the time, that "It has been proven that the death penalty does not deter crime."
Oh really? Where?
Proof is a scientific concept. It has rules and it doesn't matter whether or not you believe this or understand it. Where is the control group? Where has it ever been that 100% of the people who commit murder have been caught, tried, and executed?
That is just preposterous. Most murderers get away with it. Most murderers know that most murderers get away with it.
The fact is, you have better chances of survival if you are convicted of murder and sentenced to death than if you walk down certain streets in America unarmed. That is the truth.
The death penalty doesn't deter crime? It's never even been tried! Hardly any of the killers out there have even been sentenced to it. If they are, unless they live in Texas there is almost no chance of the sentence being carried out. Almost no chance at all, and they know it.
There is probably a better chance of a convicted killer getting a law degree at our expense than of being executed.
For these reasons I think the secular, sociological arguments against capital punishment are a bunch of crap.
As to the religious arguments, I'm not qualified to debate them. I'll leave that to others.
N6376M good post, but I think I'd call it more of a conundrum than an oxymoron.
Logan22L one interesting point about the reincarnation issue is this. More than half of the human beings that were born on this planet since the dawn of the human race (Call it Lucy or Genesis) ARE STILL ALIVE. In other words, the present population of Earth exceeds the number of humans who have died in the past 2.5 million years (or 6008 years since creation). So it is not possible for all humans to have lived on this planet before, much less hundreds of times. So if the new souls are from other planets are they really sous. And if some people are being born without souls is it okay to kill them?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
: To me, it's purely a question of logic... it doesn't seem logical to me that the government can outlaw killing someone, yet reserves that right for it
: C-boy, you´re thoughts really scares me! Wonder where you keep the hood and cross? In the closet, maybe? Micke
: Luv2fly: Please forgive the stereotype - I couldn't resist. Just call me a sarcastic pacifist on this issue. SlamClick: Spending money on prisoners, e
: One useful thing about the death penalty is that it can be a powerful negotiating tool for the prosecution. Defendants sometimes agree to plead guilty
: C-boy, you´re thoughts really scares me! Wonder where you keep the hood and cross? In the closet, maybe? Micke Erm....Solnabo....ConcordeBoy is black
: Oooppss!!!!!! Sorry, C-boy, didn´t know that Micke
: When it comes to death penalty, I'm split. The function of death penalty as deterent was proved as non-working and the risk of error and impossibility
: The death penalty is WRONG for several reasons 1. becouse it has no reversal, no way of going back once a person is executed. Troughout history there
: In these days, only brutal regimes and the US and Japan practice Death penalty ...point being?
: ConcordeBoy: In these days, only brutal regimes and the US and Japan practice Death penalty ...point being? What kind of Hint do you still need, CBoy?
: "2. If you are religious you have to believe that Life is given by God and only him can take it away, people should never decide when a person should
: Why is it so bad to execute criminals convicted of murder? If you have been convicted by a jury, and have been given the right to an appeal - then YOU
: Tasha: Did you read my posts? I gave you my opinions that address your very question. As to the costs, several people have chimed in that execution i
: Logan... Yes I have, and I just don't agree with you. Please read my above post, there I state a reason why I don't agree with you. Tasha
: This is really a very minor issue: If for instance a murderer is rottening away in a prison... Or he is "removed" once and for good... It really doesn
: What kind of Hint do you still need, CBoy? None, though apparently you do: HINT: "rhetoric"
: i think that death penalty can be wrong under circumstances, namely if the person to be executed is not part of a minority. apart from that its a grea
: "We should continue to dig deeper, spend more money in the search as to why people kill. Is it too much t.v. violence? Bad parenting? Maybe we should
: Going back to post no.12; all the last loopholes that could have led to your execution in the UK were removed a number of years ago so you cannot be e
: JeffM Were you trying to be sarcastic? Because the things that you said would, to a great extent, be good things to do. Studies have shown that rehabi
: I don't care how my tax money is spent as long as it's used to kill other people and not help them. Signed, Righties
: 2. If you are religious you have to believe that Life is given by God and only him can take it away, people should never decide when a person should d
: "Not to say that there should be no consequences... there should be, and they should probably be worse than death." Good idea, find out everything you
: I am totally opposed to the death penalty. Do you need any reason other than the execution of incorrectly convicted people? "Whoever sheds the blood o