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Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong  
User currently offlineLogan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1815 times:

I'd like to offer my thoughts on this subject, and I hope we can start a rational discussion (foolish hope on my part, but here goes).

The fundamental question of life is, to me, why are we here? I believe that the reason we are here is to figure out why we are here (sounds so simple, it's almost silly, but please, think about it). Put another way, our purpose in life is to figure out how we fit into the entirety of things. I could digress into the possibility of reincarnation, enlightenment of all beings, etc., but suffice it to say that if we kill a convicted criminal, no matter how repulsive the person or the crime, that person can no longer contemplate what is, in my opinion, the purpose of life, and cannot come to terms with it. It may be that they would not contemplate this even if they were to live, but to remove the possibility of someone being able to eventually understand what their/our life is about, EVEN IF THEY TOOK THAT AWAY FROM ANOTHER PERSON, is, in my opinion, wrong. Battlestations, everyone.

Logan

48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1785 times:

You're entitled to your opinion by all means, but what makes you think your opinion makes the death penalty "wrong"?

User currently offlineLogan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1776 times:

Semantics is the best you can bring up on such a topic? In this context, the words:

Wrong = don't kill them
Right = kill them.

My point is don't kill them, so I said "wrong."

WTF?

[Edited 2004-09-09 19:41:33]

User currently offlineRabenschlag From Germany, joined Oct 2000, 1007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1767 times:

yeah! WTF!

saying that something is right or wrong beyond personal taste presupposes an universal ethic.

up to now, no scientist has discovered an univesal ethic.

existing ethics are based on faith.

faith is a special case of personal taste.

there is no ethic beyond personal taste.

so you can say that you DISLIKE the death penalty, but to say it is wrong - i dont understand.









User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21406 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1750 times:

Apart from the purely moral question, it´s rather common that people are executed and after that have their innocence proven.

This alone should make the death penalty inherently unbearable.


User currently offlineLogan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1749 times:


Alright, now that we have all discussed what the word "wrong" means, I must apologize to all that I have offended. Apparently, the subject matter is of no consequence to anyone, but my supposed or alleged forcing of my opinion as some kind of absolute truth by use of this horrible word has rendered me a blackguard. It's my opinion - to me, it is the truth, that's how strongly I feel about it. To me, there's really not too much point in having an opinion unless you express it and embrace it.

Logan


User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 850 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1748 times:

So has the killings stopped in US? NO!

Has the deathpenelty scared people from killing each other due to d-penelty??
NO!

WTH having a law that gives the state the right to kill killers? Dunno.....u tell me?

my 0,02

Micke/SE



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineN6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1744 times:

I used to be very pro-death penalty but two independent arguments swayed my mind. The first is that there is a far too great error rate for death penalty convictions. In the past couple of year many people convicted of crimes for which they were awaiting execution have not just had their sentences commuted but been found not guilty of the crime they were originally charged. The state cannot go around executing innocent people. Even if the error rate is a fraction of 1% this is unacceptable.

Secondly, I heard a great quote from MLK:

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. You may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. You may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate, nor establish love. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."

How can the state seek to end murder by killing. The argument is oxymoronic.

Furthermore, it has been demonstrated that the cost of executing an inmate is far more than keeping them in jail for the rest of there life. Other than the shear eye for an eye satisfaction that the death penalty gives society, I really don't believe that there are any policy reasons supporting it.



User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1744 times:

Has the deathpenelty scared people from killing each other due to d-penelty??
NO!



Has it long since been deteremined that the death penalty is not a deterent and yet its supporters don't give a f^ck??
YES!

 Laugh out loud


User currently offlineLogan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1731 times:


Klaus and N6376m: Yes, there are some logistical issues also, on both sides of this issue-the reality of executing an innocent person is completely indefensible. Consider also the disproportionate racial make-up of deathrow inmates (at least in the US-I don't think I need to elaborate). On the flip side, the cost of maintaining a prisoner for life has been an argument for execution; however, N6376m, you indicated that the cost was greater to execute them. Where is this from-I'm interested to see that?

Logan


User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2234 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1724 times:

Any countries in the EU that exercise death penalty?


2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5669 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1713 times:

LY7E7,
I don't think so, since all of them are Council of Europe members as well and one of the conditions of membership in C of E is ban on death penalty, I believe.


User currently offlineArmitageShanks From UK - England, joined Dec 2003, 3609 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1709 times:

You can still be killed for treason in the UK.

User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2234 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1706 times:

You can still be killed for treason in the UK

By a Court-Martial I suppose, and not by a civil court, or am I mistaken?



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 850 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1705 times:

Make it illegal to buy guns for starters, but that´ll be the day when hell freezes over........over there! U just looove to have the right to be armed, right?

Than U can have it.......as Columbine so clearly showed  Sad

Not a country in EU have the d-penelty, dunno about Russia though.

Micke/SE



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2234 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1702 times:

dunno about Russia though

Russia has it , AFAIK



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1699 times:

that person can no longer contemplate what is, in my opinion, the purpose of life,

I think this excerpt pretty much sums up what is WRONG with death penalty: it's not a penalty; it's a state-sponsored murder.

A penalty, by definition, is something that is limited in time. It is inflicted so that the person getting a penalty takes this time to think, to reflect and, hopefully, to repent. But death, as a penalty, does not make sense, as it takes away the opportunity of an individual to accomplish these duties.

Death is for eternity and we all know that eternity lasts a long, long time, especially toward the end...

Logan, nice of you to try and establish a philosophical and ethical discussion here. But the radicalism (especially far-right radicalism) that pollutes this site prevents those kind of discussions. Sorry that I have to break this news to you...



Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1696 times:

Furthermore, it has been demonstrated that the cost of executing an inmate is far more than keeping them in jail for the rest of there life.

Does an execution really cost that much?

A few days ago, a dangerous murdered escaped from prison. He shot at several police officers while running away. This piece of shit was arrested again after a week, and is now again in jail. This is the kind of people that deserves death penalty, as they cause nothing but trouble anyway.

Another case is a serial murdered who first raped young girls, and killed them afterwards. Another one that deserves death penalty in my opinion.

I'm generally against it, but for examples like the above, I would like to see it being introduced in Belgium.

Frederic


User currently offlineN6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1695 times:

I don't have the figure in front of me (I'll search for it tonight) but I remember reading an article in the WSJ from about 2 years ago - about the time the IL governor suspended all executions that provided the figure.

The article included all cost - including the additional costs of a trial for a capital offense - the defense spends a heck of a lot of money on experts when the offense is capital, and all the appeals in coming up with that figure.



User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1694 times:

Any countries in the EU that exercise death penalty?

No. In fact, practicing death penalty is a reason for NOT being admitted within the EU. Which is why Turkey has gotten rid of it - because it wants really bad to join the EU.

Another implication is that the USA, because it's the last modern, civilized country to maintain this barbaric practice, could not, technically, join the EU.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineLogan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1686 times:

Qb001: Good point about the word penalty - it's not like this is just a 5-minute major. Also, I welcome dissenting points of view; that's the only way to have a true discussion. Hopefully, when they all come in from waxing their pick-up trucks and polishing their gun racks, we can see if the conservatives can present their side. So far, the only real dissent has been my use of the "wrong." (so much for being civil)

Logan


User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5630 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1680 times:

Another implication is that the USA, because it's the last modern, civilized country to maintain this barbaric practice, could not, technically, join the EU.

Japan is not modern and civilized?



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1680 times:

Make it illegal to buy guns for starters, but that´ll be the day when hell freezes over........

Correct.

It'd require a constitutional ammendment; and as we've very recently seen, even one heavily supported by the citizens is incredibly difficult to pass.



U just looove to have the right to be armed, right?

Indeed



as Columbine so clearly showed

Pray tell... exactly what did Columbine have to do with the right to bear arms?  Yeah sure




Does an execution really cost that much?

Not per se.... it's the legal costs combined with the prison/execution costs that do.


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 23, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1678 times:

Well for starters I do not have a truck or a gun, thank you very much for that stereotype! I am for it, an eye for an eye. I do believe even though it does not work to deter others that right there is not a reason to no longer have a death penalty. Lung cancer does not stop people from smoking.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 24, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1680 times:

One fact that is not subject to debate.
No person who has been executed has ever committed another crime.

While I am also opposed to the death penalty, I cannot think of a reasonable alternative. I am furious that my tax dollar is being used to keep these people alive. The cost of keeping a person in prison would keep them at Harvard, it would keep them in a nice cabin aboard a cruise ship, it would keep them in a house like mine with a car like mine and they' never have to work to pay for it. That is unacceptable.

I believe it is time for those of us who do not commit crimes to file a class-action suit against all of those who do commit crimes to recover 100% of the cost of having a police force, district attorney's office and a jail/prison system.

Back to the death penalty:

I also have to reject the assertion, and we hear it all the time, that "It has been proven that the death penalty does not deter crime."

Oh really? Where?

Proof is a scientific concept. It has rules and it doesn't matter whether or not you believe this or understand it. Where is the control group? Where has it ever been that 100% of the people who commit murder have been caught, tried, and executed?

That is just preposterous. Most murderers get away with it. Most murderers know that most murderers get away with it.

The fact is, you have better chances of survival if you are convicted of murder and sentenced to death than if you walk down certain streets in America unarmed. That is the truth.

The death penalty doesn't deter crime? It's never even been tried! Hardly any of the killers out there have even been sentenced to it. If they are, unless they live in Texas there is almost no chance of the sentence being carried out. Almost no chance at all, and they know it.

There is probably a better chance of a convicted killer getting a law degree at our expense than of being executed.

For these reasons I think the secular, sociological arguments against capital punishment are a bunch of crap.

As to the religious arguments, I'm not qualified to debate them. I'll leave that to others.

N6376M good post, but I think I'd call it more of a conundrum than an oxymoron.

Logan22L one interesting point about the reincarnation issue is this. More than half of the human beings that were born on this planet since the dawn of the human race (Call it Lucy or Genesis) ARE STILL ALIVE. In other words, the present population of Earth exceeds the number of humans who have died in the past 2.5 million years (or 6008 years since creation). So it is not possible for all humans to have lived on this planet before, much less hundreds of times. So if the new souls are from other planets are they really sous. And if some people are being born without souls is it okay to kill them?



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
25 TWFirst : To me, it's purely a question of logic... it doesn't seem logical to me that the government can outlaw killing someone, yet reserves that right for it
26 Post contains images Solnabo : C-boy, you´re thoughts really scares me! Wonder where you keep the hood and cross? In the closet, maybe? Micke
27 Logan22L : Luv2fly: Please forgive the stereotype - I couldn't resist. Just call me a sarcastic pacifist on this issue. SlamClick: Spending money on prisoners, e
28 PROSA : One useful thing about the death penalty is that it can be a powerful negotiating tool for the prosecution. Defendants sometimes agree to plead guilty
29 L.1011 : C-boy, you´re thoughts really scares me! Wonder where you keep the hood and cross? In the closet, maybe? Micke Erm....Solnabo....ConcordeBoy is black
30 Post contains images Solnabo : Oooppss!!!!!! Sorry, C-boy, didn´t know that Micke
31 L410Turbolet : When it comes to death penalty, I'm split. The function of death penalty as deterent was proved as non-working and the risk of error and impossibility
32 Luisca : The death penalty is WRONG for several reasons 1. becouse it has no reversal, no way of going back once a person is executed. Troughout history there
33 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : In these days, only brutal regimes and the US and Japan practice Death penalty ...point being?
34 Post contains images Klaus : ConcordeBoy: In these days, only brutal regimes and the US and Japan practice Death penalty ...point being? What kind of Hint do you still need, CBoy?
35 EmiratesA345 : "2. If you are religious you have to believe that Life is given by God and only him can take it away, people should never decide when a person should
36 Post contains images Tasha : Why is it so bad to execute criminals convicted of murder? If you have been convicted by a jury, and have been given the right to an appeal - then YOU
37 Logan22L : Tasha: Did you read my posts? I gave you my opinions that address your very question. As to the costs, several people have chimed in that execution i
38 Post contains images Tasha : Logan... Yes I have, and I just don't agree with you. Please read my above post, there I state a reason why I don't agree with you. Tasha
39 Prebennorholm : This is really a very minor issue: If for instance a murderer is rottening away in a prison... Or he is "removed" once and for good... It really doesn
40 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : What kind of Hint do you still need, CBoy? None, though apparently you do: HINT: "rhetoric"
41 Zak : i think that death penalty can be wrong under circumstances, namely if the person to be executed is not part of a minority. apart from that its a grea
42 JeffM : "We should continue to dig deeper, spend more money in the search as to why people kill. Is it too much t.v. violence? Bad parenting? Maybe we should
43 Ant72LBA : Going back to post no.12; all the last loopholes that could have led to your execution in the UK were removed a number of years ago so you cannot be e
44 AGrayson514 : JeffM Were you trying to be sarcastic? Because the things that you said would, to a great extent, be good things to do. Studies have shown that rehabi
45 WellHung : I don't care how my tax money is spent as long as it's used to kill other people and not help them. Signed, Righties
46 B757300 : 2. If you are religious you have to believe that Life is given by God and only him can take it away, people should never decide when a person should d
47 JeffM : "Not to say that there should be no consequences... there should be, and they should probably be worse than death." Good idea, find out everything you
48 Scbriml : I am totally opposed to the death penalty. Do you need any reason other than the execution of incorrectly convicted people? "Whoever sheds the blood o
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