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Hate Crime Legislation...what's The Point?  
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16940 posts, RR: 48
Posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1328 times:

Please explain to me the purpose of hate crime legislation. It seems to me that the gravity of the crime is determined by the type of victim, but maybe I'm oversimplifying it. I'd think that a murder victim is no dead-er if they are white, black, gay, jewish, etc. but maybe there's more to hate crime legislation. Thoughts?


E pur si muove -Galileo
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1319 times:

Here you go.
You will find everything you need.


http://www.tri.org/hclegislation.html


User currently offlineWellHung From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1315 times:

Might ring a bell...

http://www.matthewsplace.com/
http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/special/jasper/byrd/


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16940 posts, RR: 48
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1315 times:

"A reasonable response to irrational violence"

As opposed to rational violence?

Thanks but I was looking more for the opinions of the airliners.net peons.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16940 posts, RR: 48
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1310 times:

Would Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer's, etc., murders qualify as hate crimes?

[Edited 2004-09-17 21:06:24]


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1263 times:

Dtwclipper:
B757300 is a nut no to be taken seriously. He rides the short yellow bus to school because he is special.  Big grin


MaverickM11:
Thanks but I was looking more for the opinions of the airliners.net peons.

Those links are very informative and accurately answers your questions. Therefore carry more weight than any the "airliners.net peons".
Unless of course you just want an argument.




Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1257 times:

Superfly:

Thanks.

Welcome to my little RU list.

dtwclipper


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6661 posts, RR: 35
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1257 times:

There is no point other than to shovel more do-good touchy feely liberalism everywhere.

Crime is crime: it's all ultimately based out of hate for something.

Hate crime legislation sends a very wrong signal that one person's life is MORE valuable than another's simply because of their (fill in the blank status: race, creed, sexual orientation, etc).

It determines gradations for punishment on a very arbitrary and incorrect basis. It punishes MOTIVE when in the eyes of the law, motive only needs to be present, along with the act itself, but motive is not gauged, measured or compared to anything else.

Hate crime legislation is unnecessary bureaucracy. Crime is hurtful enough to those involved, and bias-crime legislation only amplifies the wedges and magnifies the devisiveness.

Instead of punishing crime uniformly and unilaterally within the context of the law, we now have some set of artificial scales of justice where one victim's life is granted more credence than another--the very concept is not only immoral, but unconstitutional.



User currently offlineGarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5327 posts, RR: 53
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1248 times:

Alright, what's the point of hate crime legislation? I'll step in as one of those "touchy feel good liberals." First off to address B757300's utterly insane (but what else do we expect from him) point that hate crime legislation criminalizes thought. It's not unusual for thoughts or states of mind to be elements of a crime. What's the difference between first-degree murder, second-degree murder and manslaughter? Further, by having criminal statutes receive sentences based on the severity of the offender's action, society has deemed some actions worse than others. Why shouldn't society deem some motivations worse than others?

Next, if you look at the criminal justice system, especially in the South, all too often, whites put on trial for murdering or assaulting blacks typically could look forward to lighter sentences, thus denying equal justice to victims. Having hate crimes legislation helps reverse that by enforcing stricter sentences on crimes proven to have been motiviated by hate and providing a better deterrent to crimes motivated by hate.

Further, keep in mind that while the media loves throwing around the word "hate crime" that a burden of proof must be met and that it must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that "the defendant's conduct was motivated by hatred, bias, or prejudice, based on the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation or gender identity of another individual or group of individuals."

Like arguments for tort reform, arguments against hate crimes laws are smoke and mirrors that Newt Gingrich Republicans and neofascists like to use to distract the public and shift blame from those truly at fault for their actions.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1244 times:

Dtwclipper:
Thanks.  Smile


As far as hate crimes being a 'liberal' issue, that's news to me. Why have some many Republican governors signed hate crimes bills in to law?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16940 posts, RR: 48
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1237 times:

"Those links are very informative and accurately answers your questions. Therefore carry more weight than any the "airliners.net peons"."

Those links are 100% pro-hate crime legislation sites. I'm looking for a little more give and take than that. For instance, why is Jeffrey Dahmer cutting people into pieces more or less horrific than dragging a man to death behind a car? Is there anything more to hate crime legislation than basing punishment on the motive, rather than the crime?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5477 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1233 times:

Slider and B757300 are worried some one will get more 'rights' than they will that's why their reply is based on uninformed ignorance.

Hate Crime legislation on the surface basically is used to serve notice to those of the mentality that by 'killing, brutalizing an asian, black or gay' is no longer exceptable behavior. It's simplistic because for most of America's history up and into the 1990s many white-on-white crimes would seen justice balanced out and despensed while black-on-white crimes were persued like ... cops were looking for Saddam Hussein-- with great vigor vs white-on-(black/any other minority) was persued with much less zeal, interest on the behalf of law enforcement agencies..on all levels. For years you could beat the living-shit out of your wife/girlfriend and the worse thing that would happen is the cops would show up and say 'Don't do it again' this went on well into 60's/70's... you know what happens if you try that shit today don't you.

Now for Hate Crimes Legislation's (HCL) true meaning... it's targeted towards two unique groups -- cops and perpetrators.. who posses the propensity not to enforce them (cops) and to commit them (perps).

Law enforcement has been the adversary of minorities since it's inception, for years it did little or nothing at all, when a minority was assaulted or murdered. Our history is littered with both, stories of abuse on minorities by law enforcement just for the hell of it and abuse under the color of authority.. there's plenty of film footage of it to see first hand. So to tackle that mindset it must be a proactive effort..waiting for people to change can take years,epochs, who knows... so laws that were meant to cover everyone but only covered a select populous needed a boost to get law enforcement (they are people too) to apply the law equally across the board to everyone. That's exactly what HCL is doing. It forces law enforcement to take notes on the race, sex and sexual orientation of the parties involved.. and the DA will take it from there and decide whether or not to prosecute under HCL violations.

Now the perps -- If you are use to getting liquored up (or not) on weekends and going out to beat up a few jews or mexicans (illegal or not).. and were getting away with it... why change? But when your buddy gets popped for doing it under HCL laws and ends up doing 10-20 (years)... you'll rehabilitate quite quickly.. so I guess laws can be quite persuassive when it comes to making people change.. and change in a hurry.

A fine example of this is the Jeremy Strohmeyer case, he and and his friend while visiting Vegas lured a 9 or 10 year old black girl into a casino restroom. His friend, David Cash, kept look out, while Strohmeyer raped then strangled the child. Strohmeyer was tried and sentenced to something like 20 years. Cash got away scott-free and even said afterwards 'Had he known Strohmeyer was going to kill her... he would not have turned him in anyway (security camera caught it) and he was felt no remorse about not cooperating in the follow up investigation. Now, reverse the situation, had both guys been black and raped and murdered a 9-10 year old white girl..blood still would be simmering and there's no way a 'black' David Cash would have gotten off.. no way.. no how! (Nevada law says because a witness sees a crime.. doesn't mean he has to report it).

LAPD in 1960, 70, 80,90 versus LAPD today is completely different organization.. they would never recognize each other. Unfortunately, that kind of change does not reach every corner of the USA.. but it's coming and as much as it hurts some people to change... there's not much they can do about it.

With Terrorism being atop the agenda worldwide today... groups like the KKK are effective put out of business. But for individuals who have problems with people of different persuasions AND who choose to act upon them based solely on those feelings.. there's a little something extra in the envelope these days.. getting away with it is a lot harder than it use to be.

In about 10 years of aggressive HCL enforcement.. the laws will be obsolete, because the mindset to 'do the right thing' will come as natural as breathing for most if not all law enforcement agencies. But as for people... the desire to hate (based on physical, sexual, religious differences) will never leave us. But it will be on the minds of more people than ever before... and each will have to make their own choices about doing the right thing.

BN747




"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1230 times:

MaverickM11:
My advice to you; Just don't do it.

We don't want to hear about you in the news going off on a killing spree becasue of your anger.
You totally fit the profile.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16940 posts, RR: 48
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1225 times:

"We don't want to hear about you in the news going off on a killing spree becasue of your anger.
You totally fit the profile."

Mature.

---------------------
On a related note, when you increase the sentence for a certain crime, does it have an obvious effect on number of those crimes committed (ie increasing the jail time for theft)? What about when you increase the sentence for one variation of one type of crime (ie increasing the jail time for auto theft, but not property theft)?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1222 times:

...and I am still trying to find the logic in your post.


Bring back the Concorde
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16940 posts, RR: 48
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1210 times:

"...and I am still trying to find the logic in your post.
"

Maybe try harder? Just want to know more about HCL from both sides.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1206 times:

I don't know what else you need to know. All the arguments pro / con have been posted.


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6661 posts, RR: 35
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1200 times:

The problem is there is NO logic in any of the pro-HCL posts.



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