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Fed Up With Pension Defaults  
User currently offline9844 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 199 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 971 times:

Because of the termination, US Airways capt. Dave Butterfield, 57, says he'll collect $44,000 a year from the PBGC vs. the $90,000 that he had expected.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/biztravel/2004-09-15-pensions_x.htm


Now I ask you. Is a pension that big reasonable.

11 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4120 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 945 times:

Now I ask you. Is a pension that big reasonable.

No, it isn't. Pensions are a thing of the past. I hate to say it, especially since employees have put so much of their pay into these plans. But it's almost like social security. The money that's sent to SS was supposed to be safe from use. But the US gov't realized, "hey, there's a huge pile of cash sitting there that we can use!" And now social security is having some problems coming up with the money it owes to citizens. I've pretty much accepted the fact that I won't have any social security cash when I'm 55. Even though employees have been paying into these penision plans, they need to accept that they aren't going to get that cash. Yeah, it sucks big time, but hey, at least they get to keep their job. I'd like to get $44,000 a year, that's not a bad salary. Modern corporations don't have pensions because they don't make any sense these days. It's time the airlines follow suit and cancel the plans. It's a hard loss to take, but it's something that has to be done, and there's really no stopping it.

[Edited 2004-09-18 02:45:00]

User currently offline9844 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 199 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 2 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 929 times:

Well, I got one reply. I didn't expect any, really. It seems some work groups are in denial. You are worth what you bargain for. becarefull what you wish for.



User currently offline9844 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 199 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 861 times:

Yup people love to bitch and moan about how the world owes them a living.But can't admit when burp.........

User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 4, posted (10 years 2 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 852 times:

I'd like to get $44,000 a year, that's not a bad salary. Modern corporations don't have pensions because they don't make any sense these days. It's time the airlines follow suit and cancel the plans. It's a hard loss to take, but it's something that has to be done, and there's really no stopping it.

$44k per year isn't a bad salary for a 16-20 year old. But what retirement plan really DOES make sense these days? Sprint had a 401K which matched your contributions with Sprint stock. Trouble was, you couldn't move that into something else unless you quit...it was all Sprint Stock, and it was a good thing when Sprint was trading at $70 per share. I know a guy who is in his mid 50's who had about $800,000 in his 401K. Then Sprint stock dropped to the single digits. His $800,000 retirement suddenlty dropped to under $100,000. Great deal, huh?


User currently offlineRogerThat From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 566 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 2 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 839 times:

Friendly Skys, you've got social security all wrong. The only way you will get money at 55 is if you become disabled. Workers never paid into an account that was held for them until retirement. Social Security is nothing more than a wealth transfer from young to old brought to you by your federal government.

9844, is a $90,000 pension reasonable? Yes it is, if your company is making boatloads of money, the highest skilled labor group should get the lions share in both current and future income. But when the new competition is beating you silly, its adapt or perish.

Moral of the story: contribute to your 401K, IRA or Roth IRA as young as you can and as much as you can.



User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4120 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (10 years 2 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 829 times:

Friendly Skys, you've got social security all wrong. The only way you will get money at 55 is if you become disabled. Workers never paid into an account that was held for them until retirement. Social Security is nothing more than a wealth transfer from young to old brought to you by your federal government.

The point I was making is that the gov't, instead of just doing this transfer, dipped into social security and spent it on other stuff. Now they are having trouble coming up with the money to pay all the baby boomers who contributed to that cash pile the gov't spent. It's not directly their money, but the money the gov't owes them is slowly draining away. Like I said, I doubt if I'll get anything when I'm 55. But really, cash isn't the important thing here. It's health benefits. National heath care isn't the answer. The gov't needs to set some limits on health care charges while maintaing quality of service. If the gov't runs it, it ain't gonna be quality service.  Big grin


User currently offlineRogerThat From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 566 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 822 times:

If Kerry's elected, he's got a plan to fix social security so you can get your check from the govt when you turn 67 (at the very least) not 55. He's going to raise the limit of ss wages, up to 120,000 per year. Not bad for a guy who calls himself a tax cutter of the middle class.

User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 816 times:

9844,
Yes $90,000 per year is very reasonable. What yo don't understand is that it s all considered compensation. If they would not have agreed to the high pension they would have paid higher salaries. For a pilot, you are out of a job like it or not. In other professions you can work until you want to quit, you are not just thrown out. I don't know what kind of life you live but im only 22 and I sure the hell wouldn't want to live my life on only 44K per year. Give me a break! You couldn't afford a home nice car children education or anything like that. If everyone made wages like that there would be no airline industry because no one could afford to fly!
Now, Do I think that the pensions should stay? HELL NO! Im a share holder and if they do all the airlines are gone. UA will get theirs canceled first and then the rest. Its very sad that they have to do this but it is the only thing to keep the airlines alive. I think that there should be some kind of compensation if the airlines become profitable again and if you look at statistics they should become very very profitable like to boom's that happen every so often in every industry. When the policies are being canceled there should be a clause that the airlines have to contribute so much or something like that. Will it happen? No but it would be nice!



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineAa777flyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 796 times:

9844-
You may be right about pensions being out of date and no longer belong in todays business model of companies. However, if you have spent 30+ years at a company and planned on that and it is suddenly gone or severely reduced THAT IS NOT RIGHT! Or even worse, say you retired a few years ago, you are comfortable with your pension, now you are facing loosing it? A company should not be able to walk away from it. Its employees under the pension program are creditors just like GE is if they hold the note on a 757. If UAL cannot make good on its pension liabilities, they should be forced to sell off assets to make good on the deficit.
Agrees, terminate the program for new employees or those with less than 15-20 years. But dont screw people who are counting on it and are too old to do anything about it.
How would you like it if your family was facing loosing 50-70 percent of their annual income?


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29813 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 781 times:

Sprint had a 401K which matched your contributions with Sprint stock. Trouble was, you couldn't move that into something else unless you quit...it was all Sprint Stock, and it was a good thing when Sprint was trading at $70 per share. I know a guy who is in his mid 50's who had about $800,000 in his 401K. Then Sprint stock dropped to the single digits. His $800,000 retirement suddenlty dropped to under $100,000. Great deal, huh?

And this example illustrates why you never invest your 401K with your own company, unless you have no other choice.

Best to think of any employeer contribution as gravy, but plan on only your contributions being what you live on.

Those you control. No he didn't have a great 401K match, but then again, a lot of companies don't even have a match.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineScarletHarlot From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 4673 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 754 times:

Time to geek out on pensions. I'm an actuary by training (though I have not passed all my exams, and do not have an actuarial designation) and now I am working for a large corporation as a defined benefit analyst. Before this job, I worked for a retirement consulting firm, writing calculation systems for defined benefit plans.

Aa777flyer makes the best point. These guys and girls worked for 30+ years and were promised this certain amount of money by their company. They planned around this promise. Now the employer can't deliver on their promise and the employee doesn't get what he or she expected. That is a devastating blow. The people affected most are those either close to retirement or retired. What are they going to do? Their working days are over, or at least are supposed to be over.

Delta used to be my client and I considered their pilots' pensions to be too much. The terms of the pension and how service was credited toward the pension were also too generous. They were unfairly generous. Their non-pilot plan is average - or I should say was, because now it has been cut.

Social Security is a whole other kettle of fish. Social Security is not supposed to keep any money on hand. It's supposed to come in from taxpayers and immediately go out the door to retirees. However, if a surplus is unexpectedly generated, it should NOT be taken by the government! We are going to run into the situation where there are fewer and fewer workers and more and more retirees. Those of us left working will have to pay ever higher taxes to cover the benefits being paid out. It would be nice if any surplus could hang around and help us out when that happens.



But that was when I ruled the world
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