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London 2012 - NO Thank You  
User currently offlinePropulsion From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 294 posts, RR: 3
Posted (10 years 13 hours ago) and read 1784 times:

I posted this elsewhere, but feel it would appeal as a topic of its own:

I very much hope that the London 2012 bid fails. I refuse to back the bid and would rather see it go to Paris or New York. Taxpayers money has been wasted on this as the time is not right and the plans are flawd. There are several reasons for this.

I don't believe it will actually be crippling to the transport system as a whole. London Bus Services are quite simply the best in the world and already have sufficient extra capacity.

The Undergound will not see a rise in passenger numbers that will prevent it from running safely, but it will undoubtedly be very busy.

The main problems are:

1.) The millenium dome - need I say more? What a farce!

2.) The UK has an appalling record on completing or even deciding on the planning stages of any transport project. We are still waiting for Thameslink 2000 which was designed in the 1980's as well as CrossRail (Which I am sure WILL NOT be ready in time if the track reocrd is followed).

3.) We always go overbudget and overrun on suh projects. We waste billions of pounds on rubbish while most people cannot afford a home anywhere in the country.

4.) The areas selected - Hackney, Dalston, Stratford etc - need jobs for local people and real affordable housing. NOT MORE LUXURY APARTMENTS AND USELESS STADIA.

5.) The transport link that London has been BEGGING FOR YEARS TO HAVE is to put EUROPES 2ND BUSIEST TRAIN STATION (and the UK's 1st) - CLAPHAM JUNCTION ON THE UNDERGOUND. When???

6.) People are not crying out for the East London Line Extension as much as the CrossRail 2 link, which almost certainly will not be built at the rate we are going.

7.) Furthermore, Olympics indebt countries and rarely provide long term benefits for local people - especially if they are so hastily put together like the dreaded London bid.

8.) The land for development could be used more wisely. We couldn;t even get Lea Valley's Lesirue Centre replaced near Northumberland park, so how are we to successfully redevlop much of the entire Lea Valley itself.

9.) London needs an outer Circle Line - but such lines often don't bring much money in (just look at the Hammersmith & City Line for instance). The reason is partially obivious, but also because there are not sufficient links ouside zone one, so people are forced into and out of the central area unnecessarily. (ALSO TO CHRAGE MORE ON TRAVELCARDS OF COURSE!!!)

10.) Paris and New York are more derserving in my opinion.



A bus is a vehicle that runs twice as fast when you are after it as when you are in it.
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWindowSeat From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1312 posts, RR: 57
Reply 1, posted (10 years 13 hours ago) and read 1763 times:

Wow, Propulsion, aren't you on a roll...especially for 4.15 am!  Big grin

In all seriousness, all the points you made here are absolutely valid and you have made it to my RU list.

Just look at Athens and its financials after the Olympics. Think about it, security in London itself will cost twice that of Athens, unless of course, Londoners are ready to shell out billions out of their pockets to watch some fireworks.


cheers





I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
User currently offlinePropulsion From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 294 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (10 years 12 hours ago) and read 1760 times:

WidowSeat: I have sent you a reply to your e-mail. It usually takes a little while to appear though.

Yes, don't you find you go on a roll every so often. Maybe it is because I have not been posting much recently.

Thank you so much for talking and all your useful and considerate input. I will go to sleep now, but do make sure you get round to checking you e-mail sometime soon. Big thumbs up



A bus is a vehicle that runs twice as fast when you are after it as when you are in it.
User currently offlinePropulsion From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 294 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (10 years 12 hours ago) and read 1758 times:

The roll has taken its effect!!! - I meant WindowSeat!  Laugh out loud Laugh out loud Laugh out loud


A bus is a vehicle that runs twice as fast when you are after it as when you are in it.
User currently offlineCsavel From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1363 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (10 years 12 hours ago) and read 1758 times:

Here, here Propulsion!

And the Olympics will come to New York in 2012 over my freakin' dead body!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
User currently offlinePropulsion From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 294 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (10 years 12 hours ago) and read 1749 times:


Csavel:

I guess that leaves Madrid and may favourtie Paris!!!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Goodnight all.



A bus is a vehicle that runs twice as fast when you are after it as when you are in it.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (10 years 12 hours ago) and read 1743 times:

And what happens if a city starts to build a lot of stadia to impress the IOC, but doesn´t get the bid? Just look at Berlin!
Good that they didn´t get the olympics, the city is broke enough!

Jan


User currently offlineLewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3636 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (10 years 6 hours ago) and read 1706 times:

Since I am not British I had no idea that there are all these problems mentioned. The first things that came in mind was lack of space and lack of roads. For Athens it was easy in most parts to build wider and better roads but London is more densely built.
Even if the 2004 Olympics probably harmed Athens financially, they were an excuse to bring the level of infrastructure to that of a modern city. I bet that without hosting the Olympics we would still be using the old airport (the new one was planed from the 80's and the govt speeded up its building to impress the IOC), we wouldn't have the underground, the tram and many highways and roads that we enjoy today.
London of course has an excellent transport system but maybe because of the possibility of hosting the games they would think about renovating parts or all the underground system.


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 5 hours ago) and read 1688 times:

So what airport is London planning to use to handle the extra Olympic traffic ? I trust not LHR or LGW, as these are already bursting at the seams. Perhaps they'll use STN again, like the "Millenium Gateway" airport for the Dome HAHAHAHAHAHA - yes, that was SUCH a success.

I would agree that London should concentrate on getting the tube and the rail network up to speed, rather than more useless white elephant stadia and more luxury East-end flatettes for red-braces-wearing investment wankers.


User currently offlineBENNETT123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7613 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (10 years 5 hours ago) and read 1683 times:


I think that a project based on Lea Valley could be feasible, the problem is firstly the backers would want to draw a link to Wembley or Tourist London

Firstly LHR/LGW do not have the capacity and frankly STN is one of my least favourite airports. To use it as a gateway is IMO a non starter.

Secondly the road congestion in Central London, which I understand extends to the North/South Circular. Why do you think congestion charging was introduced.

Then there are the Buses/London Underground. Anyone who has tried it during the peak periods, which can be surprisinly long would not suggest it even for their worst enemy. I know that we are trying to bring the world together, but there are limits.

Finally, every major London based project in recent years was a disaster,
like the Millenium Dome, a damp squib like Millenium Night that London Underground and the Metropltan Police tried to cancel. The reason given that having so many people is Central London was unsafe.

Until the people who run this country get organised then NO, having the Olympics in London is a Non Starter.


User currently offlineGman94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 1239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 years 3 hours ago) and read 1645 times:

Well done Propulsion for taking the typical British attitude of running our country down.

The benefits of recent Olympics have far outweighed the negatives, it's about time this country hosted the games for it's merits and not stepping in at the last minute like the previous occasions that we've hosted the games.

I hope we do it, we can do it and it will be a huge success. Back the bid and stop knocking our country.



British Airways - The Way To Fly
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 hours ago) and read 1632 times:

Well done Propulsion for taking the typical British attitude of running our country down.

It's people like Propulsion who are quite happy to sit back and critise anything and everything without stopping to think. If rail links are delayed, Propulsion won't try to analyse why - he'll merely blame it on 'the government', 'kids' or if he takes the Daily Mail approach, 'asylum seekers'.


User currently offlineKEno From Malaysia, joined Feb 2004, 1842 posts, RR: 27
Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 hours ago) and read 1628 times:

In the UK you will almost hear these issues on a daily basis :-
1. improve the NHS
2. more schools
3. scrap university tuition fees

London 2012 will only get public support if the British government can surrender to the demands above.
I doubt very much it'll happen anytime soon, if ever.


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 hours ago) and read 1626 times:

In the UK you will almost hear these issues on a daily basis :-
1. improve the NHS
2. more schools
3. scrap university tuition fees

The thing is the NHS has improved. Whether you support Labour or not, you cannot deny that the NHS has improved since 1997. People don't want more schools, they want current schools improved. And trust me, university tuition fees will never be scrapped, whichever party comes into power.


User currently offlineKEno From Malaysia, joined Feb 2004, 1842 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 hours ago) and read 1615 times:

Edited : I meant to say more money for schools.

2.) The UK has an appalling record on completing or even deciding on the planning stages of any transport project. We are still waiting for Thameslink 2000 which was designed in the 1980's as well as CrossRail (Which I am sure WILL NOT be ready in time if the track reocrd is followed).

This is the main reason why the IOC should never let London get the Olympics. Yes I know transport system is only a part of the whole Olympic infrastructure but it just goes to show a prime example of UK government's inefficiency (Labour or Tory). Now just look at the new Wembley project...

NHS has improved? Yes according to statistics/targets-obsessed Labour. But the whole picture is still a shamble, certainly not fit for the people of one of the world's superpowers. I myself had to wait 4 months just to see a consultant, let alone have a treatment but luckily it wasn't serious. I dread to think what it would be like for a cancer patient!

[Edited 2004-09-23 16:05:18]

User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13210 posts, RR: 77
Reply 15, posted (9 years 12 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1570 times:

As a frequent NHS user since 2000, not a Daily Mail writer, I can state from experience that the service has improved, a lot.
Guess what, everyone I know who have experience of it in recent years think the same.

Transport is much slower in improving, but it is as much the NIMBYs than any government fault.

The Dome is not a good example to use, the Olympics are understood, which you cannot say for the Dome, no one really knew what do do with this project, with hindsight, Labour should have axed it.

However, what do I care, because I did not pay for it!
Because I have never played the National Lottery, (please don't say 'what about the other Lottery funded things that suffered', like anyone trying for the 14 million to one chance of winning gives a stuff about good causes!)
I actually found it all amusing, remembering the old quote from (I think) Samuel Johnson "A lottery is a tax on the poor and stupid".

If anything, a successful Olympic bid would have to improve transport, and sod the NIMBYS, it took the Dome to get the Jubilee Line extension done after all.


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6816 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (9 years 12 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1563 times:

With regard to an Olympic bid, the issues germane to London itself also apply to the larger world and raise some interesting questions.

At what price?

Ultimately, isn't that what everyone should be asking? At what price? What is the cost of hosting an Olympiad? And is it worth it? Is the massive infrastructure spending, pork barrel projects, under the table deals, land swaps, all worth it?

And if so, at what price?

Since the Atlanta games, each host city seems to have been on an increasingly orgasmic spending spree to juice up their cities' infrastructure, etc.


User currently offlineDelboy From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 725 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 12 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1506 times:

Lack of spelling and grammar notwithstanding, care to cite any examples?

It's people like Propulsion who are quite happy to sit back and critise


777236ER...Always nice to see a smart arse shoot themselves in the foot. NEVER take the 'p' out of someones spelling, then go and do the same yourself. Just makes you look even more foolish!!


User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 12 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1492 times:

My problem with bringing the Olympics to London is that it is probably going to be another ill conceived white elephant. We don't normally actively promote sports in this country, rather we try and encourage people to buy the over priced kit and sit in front of the telly with crisps and coke from Sainsbury's and watch Man Utd. Kids at school only get about an hour of sport a week so we won't be seeing any of them on the track in 2012!

Even Mr Livingstone pretends that somehow it will mark a renaissance of active sport participation in this country. I doubt it. And all that talk of developing an academy for sporting excellence is tosh. Crystal Palace (the national sports centre) has been open for over 40 years now but there is no academy of sporting excellence there and its also seriously running out of money.

Before spending tax payers money on yet another free jamboree for posh people let us see evidence of sport commitment by developing Crystal Palace first and not the panic "quickly do it up" scam they are playing at now.

Cheers fellow sports lovers!



User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7379 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1447 times:
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Evidence of sports commitment is already in place in Manchester; however, I would not be totally surprised if various sporting bodies are "invited" to relocate to a London-based newly built stadia for whatever sport they are in charge of. Plus, I do hope that all new stadia will have tenants per the criteria laid down for Manchester.

The best thing London should do is to sack the current crop of bid leaders and replace them with the hierarachy of the Manchester Commonwealth Games Committee as there would be no "baggage" attached to them other than a successful hosting of the 2nd biggest multi-sports event in the world.

But, ultimately, the Olympics decision will be based on where the corrupt and the freeloaders wish to travel and not on whether the bid city is capable of hosting the athletes in some measure of comfort (fortuitously, Manchester avoided having to build several 5 star hotels just to service them for a 3 week period and then have these white elephants standing proud for any number of years with no occupants).

Oh, forgot something. "Anywhere but London" for the 2012 Olympics!

David


User currently offlineLtbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13116 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1410 times:

I don't want them in NYC in 2012 either! There is a huge debate over the building of a $1 BILLION ! superstadium with a movable cover of course over passenger rail yards on the west side of Manhattan. Of course, by the time we get done with the stadium, the costs would probably be $2+ Billion, this as we have kids in the Bronx having school classes in closets. While the new stadium would connect with the Javits Convention Center, it would never be used enough to make it profitable.
There is of course, the huge security target that NYC is and will continue to be for a generation and the costs of security. Many Millions were spent for the republican Convention for security, much less than the city made from the convention. Already the transit systems are overloaded at peak times, and an Olympics would be a disaster waiting to happen. If they were to occur in NYC, you would have to have 50% or more people take vacation from their jobs in Manhattan, with deep financial and economic conquences. Already our airports at very busy levels, and expected to be over loaded in future years.

NYC does have some advantages - there is a perfectly fine stadium for sports in NJ, about 10 miles away - Giants stadium. Many other facilities would be available in the NYC and metro area, including many public indoor arenas -Madison Sq. Garden, continental Airlines Arena in NJ, new arenas planned for Newark, NJ and Brooklyn, NY as well as facilities of the many colleges and universities in the Metro area.

To me the only real answer is to have perminate host cities - for both summer and winter Olympics, where the facilities including lodging have been previously been built for Olympics at them. Atlanta, Sydney, Athens, and China's site for 2008 could be possible summer sites, and SLC could be the US site for Winter Olympics, for a Euro host site, perhaps where to be held in Italy in 2006.


User currently offlineQANTASFOREVER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1392 times:

Slider

Since the Atlanta games, each host city seems to have been on an increasingly orgasmic spending spree to juice up their cities' infrastructure, etc.

True, but in the case of Sydney it made a huge profit out of the games. The NSW government showed that the olympics need not be two weeks of joy and 50 years of financial ruin.

Propulsion -

When (if?) London wins the games and you are watching the opening ceremony on TV, I guarantee that you will be thankful for the bid. Coming from a person who lived through an olympics in his home town, there is always this massive public cynicism toward the buildup - but once the curtain opens, it is the most magical thing on this planet.

QFF


User currently offlinePropulsion From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 294 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1390 times:

777236ER: Before being so unnecessarily unfavourable towards my post, swearing at me and then making unfounded claims as to the 'type' of person I am, please care to think.

1.) I am not a 'typical' criticising Brit.
2.) I do not read the Daily Mail. I actually dispise this paper.
3.) If you care to search, I am actually one of the few people who has profound praise for London's transport system.

1.) 'I went, it was awesome. Why does this mean the 2012 olympics will be a farce?'

- You must be the only person in the UK who actually thinks £2bn spent on this is 'awesome'. You must be completely incompetent not to understand the significance of a proven track record in large project management and the link this has to an Olympic bid.

2.) 'Nonsense. Terminal Five at LHR is coming on quite well.'

KOREA WENT THROUGH INDUSTRIALISATION FASTER THAN THE UK GAVE PLANNING CONSENT TO T5. Now let me see, things are progressing very well, aren't they? Albeit, just a DECADE behind schedule.

3.) 'Lack of spelling and grammar notwithstanding, care to cite any examples?'

Everything stated already if you care to read: Thameslink 2000, the Dome, the Jubliee Lne Extension - and then a new chapter for its signalling system too. Crossrail 1 & 2. The East London Line Extension - THESE ARE NOT NEW PROJECTS - MOST INCLUDING T5 ARE NOW OVER 20YEARS OLD AND STILL WAITING WHILE PUBLIC MONEY IS BEING SPENT UNPRODUCTIVELY.

4.) 'it is making a point of putting stadia in poorer areas, in an effort to regenerate those areas.'

Why don't we put a stadium next to your house so your kids 'stop breaking into cars' as you say. Regeneration does not occur by simply throwing money at an area and building things - just look at the Docklands. ALL THE UK SEEMS TO DO IS GENTRIFY AREAS AND THEN MOVE THE 'PROBLEM PEOPLE' AWAY - TAKE A LOOK AT HARLESDEN FOR A GOOD EXAMPLE.

5.) 'What the f*** does this have to do with the Olympic bid?!'
6.) 'Seems you have a problem with Labour's rail policy, not the Olympic bid.'

Your use of the English Language exhibits your stature perfectly. If it has not occurred to you, the IOC believe much of the London bid's success is subject to resolving Transport issues. An orbital link has long been necessary and stated as a solution to some of these. PEOPLE NEED TO GET TO THE OLYMPICS YOU KNOW? - HARD CONCEPT BUT YOU MIGHT JUST GET IT. AND DON'T SWEAR - BEING POLITE DOES NOT HURT.

7.) 'Eight Years away'

yes the Olympics are, but not the bid - and let me see, we really got all the transport programs completed within eight years of their conception, didn't we? I suppose that is why we are still waiting for so many of them!!!

8.) 'Why don't you run for office?'

Why don't you go and get yourself a brain transplant - and make sure the replacement actually works!

9.) 'Nothing to do with the Olympic bid.'

Of course, transport has nothing to do with the Olympic bid as we all know from your teachings.

10.) 'Definitely so - they don't have idiots like you.'

So well placed you are to condemn others as 'idiots' aren't you? This coming from someone who believes the Dome is 'awesome'.



A bus is a vehicle that runs twice as fast when you are after it as when you are in it.
User currently offlinePropulsion From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 294 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1383 times:

Gman94:

I am not running the country down. Why are you being so sensationalist? I was simply expressing my points as to why London is not ready to host the Olympics in this particular time frame - i.e. ready by 2012.

Just because I don't back the bid it does not mean I am 'knocking' our country as such.



A bus is a vehicle that runs twice as fast when you are after it as when you are in it.
User currently offlineRogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1374 times:

Propulsion is absolutely right.

The Olympics in London is a stupid waste of time. There are a thousand other real improvements that could be made that would benefit everyone RIGHT NOW as opposed to working to get the Olympics for a few weeks 8 years from now.

The Olympics are always wanted by the busy body cheer-leader public figures who just want an ego trip. These people should be forced to do some real work. These people are in every city and get their self importance by imagining that getting the Olympics in their home town makes the rest of the world feel inferior. The Olympics lose money. They are a pain in the ass for the residents. They do -maybe- give a brief ego boost for a few days. Who cares?

In a perfect world, the infrastructure invested on the Olympics should be spent in developing nations. How sick is it that we spend so much money in large wealthy cities for a few days of Olympics when poorer cities elsewhere need investment much more? Have the Olympics in Africa for the next 30 years, and make the rest of us build infrastructure there, where its really needed. London is a great city as it is, it doesn't need an advertisement like the Olympics.

kind regards

RogueTrader


25 Post contains images Propulsion : RogueTrader: Thank you kindly for your input. You have made some fantastic points and I agree that the money would be better spent helping Africa and
26 Jasepl : I wouldn't wish the Olympics on any city. Not even the poor Chinese, whose government seem to have sold them on the idea that hosting a games is the o
27 BNE : I very much hope that the London 2012 bid fails, if everyone has that attitude in England then you never get it. Hosting an Olympic games does amazing
28 BENNETT123 : First point is that there is more to the Olympics than infrastructure. However, most of the doubts are either Infrastructural or Financial. I would be
29 Jasepl : Is it true that the Railways punctuality and reliability is still below pre Hatfield levels I don't know about Hatfield, but the railways in India are
30 L-188 : NYC does have some advantages Water polo in the east river???
31 Alessandro : I hope the 2012 games goes to either South America or Africa, my first choice would be Brasilia the capital of Brazil, then Cape town. But since South
32 Lewis : To me the only real answer is to have perminate host cities - for both summer and winter Olympics, where the facilities including lodging have been pr
33 Propulsion : Many interesting points have been made. The railways in England are simply terrible, with the exception of a select number of services. It was not pr
34 Post contains links 777236ER : You must be the only person in the UK who actually thinks £2bn spent on this is 'awesome'. You must be completely incompetent not to understand the s
35 Propulsion : 777236ER: Let me deal with some of your points. '£2bn well spent' = are you actually sane? How many hosptials, schools, social housing schemes, youth
36 Propulsion : CONTINUED… ROADS = Do you seriously believe that erecting dot matrix signs along motorways is sufficient criteria to render Britain's transport infr
37 Propulsion : Sorry for error, CTRL not CRTL!
38 Csavel : To me the only real answer is to have perminate host cities - for both summer and winter Olympics, where the facilities including lodging have been pr
39 Sydscott : I think that Sydney and Melbourne should be alternate as permanent host city for the Summer Games. 1. Sydney has all the infrastructure still there a
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