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To The United States Of America, Nov. 2nd, 2004.  
User currently offline747-600X From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 2792 posts, RR: 14
Posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2847 times:

Dear Fellow Citizen, Foreign Observer,

In one month’s time, we, the Citizens of the fifty United States of America, will be given the opportunity to do that which allegedly consists, essentially, in the selecting of a leader for ourselves and our nation.
Let me begin, therefore, by expressing a certain degree of shame for those who cannot find the time in their day or the will in their souls to act. Considered in the frame of the course of human history, it remains novel and distinguished that a human should have the right to select its own leaders – a privilege granted to too few throughout the centuries, and to this day in an insufficient number of places. While I can accept that you may not care to vote because you are satisfied with the status quo, I cannot accept that that is almost ever the truth, or that it makes sense to be apathetic towards one’s future because one’s present makes do.
In a speech earlier this year, independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader envisioned a future in which the grandchildren of the current generation of American young men and women sat in our laps and asked us, “Grandpa, where were you when the world started falling apart?” and we had no better answer for them than to say, “Watching the reruns of the fifth season of Friends.” How dare we. The privileges we enjoy in the First World – in America, especially – are not the consequence of apathy and disinterest. They are the consequence of a staling entity formerly known as Freedom.
And so, I make my first request: however maligned the system may be, and however controllable the system may have become, it remains that you have some shred of a voice, though in a land where only half of you would speak, who is to blame for the loss of your voice is hard to say anymore. We have our flaws, to be certain, and there is no secret to the nefarious activities which have gone on in preventing certain groups or individuals from having their voice rightly expressed, but let me promise you this: it is not as bad here as in some other lands, and it is only bound to get worse in the face of your silence. So, one month from today, I ask what I feel to be a very small and undemanding thing of you: vote. It is not as much the one who wins who will determine the freedom of men as it is those who took the steps to determine the winner.

I have, also, a moral need to present you with a second request, regarding a specific furtherance of the former request and involving an interpretation of the human condition as manifested in the current administration and its incumbents.
The present administration of the United States of America has forced several issues into the light, entitled them “crises,” and caused the people, either through fear or allegations of wrongful disloyalty, to respond, in part, to these issues: Our president would have us believe, for example, that homosexual marriage is unacceptable because it “redefines” what marriage is. We are never told why this is wrong; we are never told that this is wrong. So, let me make this clear: America was always a land of redefinition. We came here from so many places, the refugees of a thousand separate failures of the human condition, and rose up to what was, at least as envisioned, an astounding level of moral aptitude and respect for one another. There were many groups and many instances of intolerance, and if progress was not defined by the overcoming of such intolerance, then I don’t know how it was. When two people become emotionally involved in a way which is mutually consensual and which affects only themselves, I cannot comprehend how it becomes the business of government to intervene in their relations. We are taught, however, to fear change. We became by changing, by doing something different – something which, at the time, was liberal and radical – never forget that. Our president claims to be a conservative and conservatives claim to believe in small government. To be frank, one doesn’t conquer two foreign nations, establish a Department of Homeland Security, a Transportation Security Administration, a Patriot Act, try to prevent loving couples from being legal couples, and then preach about small government. The current administration believes in certain values which are not American but which more and more we are trying to be seduced into believing are just that. The Anglo-Saxon, Christian, or white-male-millionaires-for-president traditions of our nation may very well be what we are generally accustomed to, but they are not what we are about in this land. Our Constitution does not outline a Christian basis for operation. It was drafted by God-fearing deists in an age when all “decent” men went to church, and it bears the earmarks of their faith, but our land has been one of diversity and freedom, and we have become great by accepting our differences and working together, between one culture and the next, between one faith and the next, to establish a great nation. When they told the blacks to go back to Africa because it was “our nation,” they were wrong. When they tell the Mexicans to get back south of the border because it is “our nation,” they are wrong. We have our problems, and it is very easy to assign blame for those problems to people of a different race or color and to fear the changes which newcomers bring. The fact of the matter is, however, that this was never “our nation” – that is merely the voice of the white, male, millionaire club – it was always a nation for all. The current administration may mean well in trying to uphold “American” values, but those values are of a certain faith, a certain set of beliefs, and they are clearly un-American. We are not a Puritan country. Progress is what we make when we work towards allowing all cultures to coexist equally, so long as that coexistence does not harm others. Progress is not what we make when we insist on nervously dragging old values into a day and age when it is shown time upon time that a man’s ability to be a man is not affected by his race, origins, religious affiliation, or sexual preference. Freedom is the power to choose; it is the courage to change.
Aside from these specific issues, there is a certain fearsomeness inherent to the growing trend of secretive governing. You may not know this, but at any Bush fund-raiser and other Bush-Cheney events, attendees are required to sign legally-binding oaths of loyalty. They are not allowed to express dissenting views. This is an extremely dangerous action for any government or the members thereof to take. At the point where dissent is silenced, we again loose track of Freedom. It makes a pretty show and goes over well on camera, but I long for a leader who has nothing to fear because his actions are honest and open, and who will, therefore, look dissent in the eye and give his best performance not when all are forced to agree with him, but when he can answer a decent question in a decent way. The suppression of dissent is one of the first and most vile signs of a failing civilization and a dying democracy. It has begun.
Let us consider the opponent, then, who has been accused of softness on the aforementioned issues and others. Those who accuse candidate John Kerry of being “soft” on issues are correct; he is. But let me ask you this: to what avail is hardness? Does it not seem stolid? Does it not seem ignorant? Bush was hard on war, hard on many allegations of terrorism. I will submit that our enemies were fewer then than now. If Kerry is soft on issues, I cannot honestly say that I fear that. If he was to go four years and not go on a single crusade, we might just be better off. No, I submit that it is the hardness which is wrong. Men and societies are not black and white; they are grey. Seldom comes the time when something is both absolute and when we are absolutely certain of it. If there is to be virtue in conservativism, then it must consist of more than cold refusal to accept change and childish preoccupation with pride and proud issues.
I also feel the need to opine, briefly, on who America is not only in America, but in the world – for centuries, America has been on a dangerous path of building itself an empire. As much as we would like to point the finger at religious extremism and say that it is the sole cause of events like September 11th, the fact remains that there is nary a country out there which we haven’t bombed, barricaded, or issued sanctions against. It is such a frightening and unhealthy thing to try and build a nation of Christians by convincing them that the other faiths are evil. The other faiths had no problem with us until we trespassed upon them. Osama did not bomb Canada, he did not bomb Australia. You cannot point out that to certain others, we are “infidels” and call that the reason for the deaths of so many – if that logic were true, then there would be no distinguishing element between those who were the victims and those who were not. It is not religious extremism which we must fear. If that were the case, then terrorists are as much in the White House as in any Mid-East land. It is extreme propose Constitutional amendments which intrude upon the entirely-personal lives of one’s own citizens.
...The French refused to help us in Iraq, and we used their refusal as a reason to spite them. Do we forget their aid in our greatest wars, here on our home soil, not that many centuries ago? Do we forget the number of times when they have come to our aid in foreign invasions and missions, sending their troops to war and getting nothing in return? The French refusal to cooperate did not depend on an issue of morality in invading Iraq as much as it did one of being fed up. They have been used by America enough. They are only one of many nations which has come to that stance.

Before drawing to my conclusion on what will be my second request, let me offer, now, an apology which America should have offered the morning of September 12th, 2001:
To the Native American nations which we dissolved in our wanderlust, warmongering, and eagerness to own the Earth, and then, across the globe, to every nation on almost every continent which we have invaded and held down and commercially imperialized decade after decade, at the cost of millions of innocent, civilian lives, I – an American – sincerely say: I’m sorry. We live a life of great consumption here in America, and that consumption depends upon us maintaining strongholds in locations throughout the entire Earth. We begin wars when they benefit us, we kill civilians by the thousand, and we install ill-chosen dictators who only years later become our new enemies once we have used and disposed of a nation which helped us once. How dare we. We are told that Freedom isn’t free. What we aren’t told, however, is how much it costs – or who, in blood, is paying the price.

There are many, many other issues which arise, but the issues themselves are not as important as your right to dissent, your God-given rights to your own soul, and those of literally billions of others across the planet. Remember, our president is said to be the leader of the whole of the free world... most of which doesn’t get a say in who we choose.

In conclusion, let me accept that I do not suppose it to be ours, or any man’s, to judge the current administration’s reaction to September 11th, for it is a hard thing to say how a man should react to such a travesty. We might have perceived that perhaps our presence in the rest of the world is in a state of overextended welcome. We might have stopped the killing then and there. We did not. It matters very little who comes next, so long as it is someone else. I do not profess hatred for President Bush, as many do. I profess sympathy for a man who could not succeed in business, was contested more violently than ever before in inauguration, and who has led a stolid, whining career as the leader of our nation, always pushing and punching against the wind to force another issue down another throat at the expense of another thousand lives.
My second request, then, is this: because we live in a land where plurality rules, and therefore a land where a candidate may win with far less than a majority of the vote, it is only possible for a change if we are all to vote similarly. This November 2, I ask that we forgive Bush his trespasses, and that we then get him the hell away from any position in which there is any even mild suggestion of political power.

Thank you, and whether you agree or disagree, please, at the very least, vote.

With sincerity,
a citizen of the State of Illinois, one of the fifty
United States of America.



"Mental health is reality at all cost." -- M. Scott Peck, 'The Road Less Traveled'
31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCommander_Rabb From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 771 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2831 times:

Are you of voting age 600X? Thanks for giving me just one more reason to vote......for Bush.

 Smile



User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29799 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2830 times:

Request denied by this voter.

This nation has nothing to appologize for.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offline747-600X From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 2792 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2828 times:

Cute - yes, I am. Nice profile, by the way. I think you need a few flags in there  Big grin


"Mental health is reality at all cost." -- M. Scott Peck, 'The Road Less Traveled'
User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2774 times:

"I ask that we forgive Bush his trespasses, and that we then get him the hell away from any position in which there is any even mild suggestion of political power."

Why didn't you just write that in the first place and spare us all your whinning?
It's no wonder you have no sex life, you probably bore a girl (or guy as I suspect) to death.


User currently offlineAir2gxs From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2761 times:

Whether you agree or not, get out and vote.

As to the rest of the post:

I have to agree with L-188, we have nothing to apologize for. Yes, we are a nation of "consumption", but we are also a nation of producers. The material and the intangible. We produce a yearning for freedom. We produce compassion in our foreign aid. We export doctors, "peace corp", and troops whenever asked and sometimes when we are not because its right. We are probably the most benevolent society to ever exist in history.

Yes, we have supported some dictators that have turned on us. Why? Because it was the right thing to do at the time to further OUR interests. Politics is a world of subtle shades of gray, not black and white. We are turning some of those grays to black and white, and dealing with the issues that are uncovered.

Some feel the US should subordinate itself to the will of the UN. That we should only act with their consent. We did that for many decades, and what did it get us? Had we, and the world community, jumped on terrorism in the 70s, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. But a weak willed UN and equally weak willed US President just let it all happen.

There is nothing wrong with a nation looking after its own interests. And yes, ensuring an uninterrupted supply of oil is in our interests. I wholly support our war on Iraq, because it is part of the war on terror (which was started in the 70s, but only one set of combatants understood that) and because it is in our best interests to maintain a strong presence in the Middle East.

We have always been a paper tiger. The terrorists knew that. Now, we have shown our claws and fangs. We have no more enemies than before. They have just come out of hiding because they know victory in Iraq and Afghanistan will irrepairable harm their cause. They also feel that if the blood shed continues the US will bow to world pressure and the public sentiments of "bleeding hearts" and withdraw from the area.

Freedom is not free, we know that. Blood is always the price. I believe it was Thomas Payne (Paine?) who said something about the tree of liberty being watered by blood. There are plenty of quotes from our founders along those lines. Look some of them up.

On to the French. I don't begrudge the French, Germans or any other nation that refused to come along anything. They chose what they chose in their own self-interest, just as we and others made our choice.

A a little rant. Everyone, go out and exercise your right, and responsibilty, to vote.


User currently onlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21465 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2680 times:

747-600X, is this your own original A.net post or is it being published elsewhere? In that case you need to credit the source (and limit yourself to excerpts of the original).

And please use paragraph breaks to make a long text halfway readable! (It´s another reason to believe it´s been copied from a columnized print format.)


I think it´s generally a good thing to put things in perspective and look beyond the ideology (which is true for every position out there). It´s one of the things the USA was always supposed to stand for, even through the setbacks.


JeffM: Why didn't you just write that in the first place and spare us all your whinning?
It's no wonder you have no sex life, you probably bore a girl (or guy as I suspect) to death.


If constant whining is a sign of homosexuality, you can give our collective regards to your boyfriend. I´ve not seen you doing anything but whine.  Insane


Air2gxs: I have to agree with L-188, we have nothing to apologize for.

Not recognizing one´s own failures is not exactly a sign of moral strength. And it tarnishes everything positive you´d have to show for yourself. Sweeping problems under the rug doesn´t work in the long run. And it´s certainly nothing that anybody could respect.

If you believe that the inability to recognize one´s own failures was a sign of strength, you´re looking for an authoritarian dictator; Democracy has always derived its strength from the ability to recognize, acknowledge and correct its own mistakes.


Air2gxs: Yes, we have supported some dictators that have turned on us.

Your obvious disinterest in those dictators turning on their own populations is quite telling.


Air2gxs: Some feel the US should subordinate itself to the will of the UN.

Crap. This idiotic idea is a laughing stock among those who would supposedly "control" the USA that way. If your only alternative to bullying, intimidating and beating up of others would be to get bullied, intimidated and beaten up, your social skills would have to be just barely this side of autism. Normal people can actually talk to and listen to other people without selling their souls. Maybe you should ask them how they manage to do it.  Nuts


Air2gxs: There is nothing wrong with a nation looking after its own interests.

...unless they feel entitled to trample over the legitimate interests of others in the process. Same principle as within every civil society. Is that so hard to understand?


Air2gxs: I wholly support our war on Iraq, because it is part of the war on terror

Wrong. Iraq was one of the few countries in the region where the terrorists could not establish a presence - at least before the US invasion.


Air2gxs: We have no more enemies than before.

You´ve got that right. Plus basically all the rest of the planet being in opposition to the current US government. And yet you´re still trying to shift blame to others. Very funny.


Air2gxs: They have just come out of hiding because they know victory in Iraq and Afghanistan will irrepairable harm their cause.

Iraq has gone from a no-go area to the primary recruiting and exercising ground for the terrorists with the disastrously botched US invasion. If there´s "irreparable harm" done to anyone, it certainly is not to the terrorists. Just look at the number of your very own GIs coming back in body bags on a regular basis, and with increasing frequency.  Sad


Air2gxs: They also feel that if the blood shed continues the US will bow to world pressure and the public sentiments of "bleeding hearts" and withdraw from the area.

The failed leadership in the White House and the Pentagon created a situation that is unsustainable in almost every way. "Bleeding hearts" are entirely unnecessary to understand that. By the way, the strongest critics of the Iraq detour still maintain and even increase their presence in Afghanistan to try stemming the tide of the Taleban resurgence.


Air2gxs: Freedom is not free, we know that. Blood is always the price.

More than 15000 dead Iraqis even before the takeover in Iraq, many more since, including over thousand american and other "coalition" troops. Freedom? Iraqis feel occupied and want nothing more than getting the occupiers out of their home country. Something must have gone wrong along the way, don´t you think?


Air2gxs: On to the French. I don't begrudge the French, Germans or any other nation that refused to come along anything. They chose what they chose in their own self-interest, just as we and others made our choice.

Wrong. Self-interest was only a part of it, but not the primary part. If you had actually followed the public discussion over here (which you clearly didn´t), you would know that the reasons for the dissent were primarily centered on international law and the lack of validity of the US arguments for the invasion. You may feel a little better by smearing us as egoistical evil euro-scum, but we simply didn´t just unceremoniously ditch the ideals that once were promoted by the USA and were shared among the "free world" until pretty exactly the beginning of the year 2001 when the Bush administration declared them invalid and "against US interests".


Air2gxs: Everyone, go out and exercise your right, and responsibilty, to vote.

At least on that I can only wholeheartedly agree!

[Edited 2004-10-03 22:56:14]

User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2672 times:

It's scary to think about, but someone could theoretically start a "None of the Above" Party, and run under it.

Given the historical performance of the Dems and Republicans, and the increasingly disgusting manner in which political campaigns are run, the "None of the Above" Party could win by a landslide...


User currently offline747-600X From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 2792 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2569 times:

The only additional comments I feel should be made are:

1-In one month, I'll change my profile to the next age category; I'm 20 currently. I do notice how presumptuous some of the childish American responses are to the piece. I find it interesting how many people's first inclination, upon reading this, was to check my profile. What did you expect to find, I wonder? That I'm a child? Not of voting age?
To be honest, I'd expected a lot more flame-throwing and such. One of the reasons I haven't participated in these forums much in recent months (years) is the flame-throwing; perhaps it's come under control a bit...???

and, 2-It is a great American sadness that someone can't say what they mean without having the reply, "no wonder you don't have a sex life." I'm sure it must be nice to be that shallow and not give a sh_t, but again, our founding fathers would have given a sh_t and a little more.

Klaus, thank you for your comments; I'm surprised to see that you're the only non-US participant in this discussion. As for the piece itself, it is not taken from anything else, I wrote it October 1st and had it proofread by a Political Science and an English professor each on October 2nd. There are more paragraph breaks than are evident; the HTML coding for this site doesn't allow indents on the first line, so a paragraph which ends near the right side of the page as a simple matter of font-size alignment will seem to flow into the next one. That's why substantially different portions are separated also with a blank line.



"Mental health is reality at all cost." -- M. Scott Peck, 'The Road Less Traveled'
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2566 times:

We have nothing to apologize for? A war that was fought under two false pretenses: WMD's and the war on terror? A war that has killed a thousand Americans, for nothing? A war that has killed thousands of Iraqi's, for nothing? A war with no end in sight? A war that the president said was over almost a year and a half ago? A war that the Administration has no clue to get out of?

I think we have plenty to apologize for. The best way to do it would be to send Mr. Bush back to Texas.


User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2562 times:

Great American sadness? LOL.... my, what have you been smokin'? LOL

And by the way, my statement about your sex life.. " ..leaves me devoid of true friends, and without a good sex life for far, far too long..." came from your profile.

And it is a direct observation after reading it, and your post. That is what I meant to say, and you're right, I don't give a sh*t.  Big grin


User currently offline747-600X From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 2792 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2557 times:

How absolutely stupid (I'm grinning while writing this, so no hard feelings) do you think I am that I didn't know it came from my own profile. Oy vey. Can you spell: "duh"?

Anyway, I'll keep what I've been smokin' to myself, thank you.

-- On a serious note --

I was wondering how a nation being benevolent = a nation having "nothing to apologize for"? Forgetting the war in Iraq and just talking in terms of ethics, just because we do something nice doesn't mean we haven't things that are not so nice.



"Mental health is reality at all cost." -- M. Scott Peck, 'The Road Less Traveled'
User currently onlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21465 posts, RR: 53
Reply 12, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2537 times:

Another remark to the content:

I think that a certain amount of humility ought to be a natural part of every self-confident personality, be it individually or collectively. If it weren´t completely missing from the official political representation of the USA at this moment, it would be much, much easier to react much more positively in return... But when even the rare positive remark about a "foreign" country is accompanied by a sneer it´s somewhat difficult to stay all friendly.

At least internal self-reflection has traditionally been the strong suit of US society. And even the fear of a (real) external threat should not be an excuse to dump this strength in favour of an ultimately feeble forced unity.

There´s nothing as strong as a unity that comes from shared ideals and convictions, both nationally and internationally. And critical self-reflection is simply a necessity to clear out the obstacles standing in the way of this kind of unity.

Which applies to everyone, of course.






747-600X: 1-In one month, I'll change my profile to the next age category; I'm 20 currently. I do notice how presumptuous some of the childish American responses are to the piece. I find it interesting how many people's first inclination, upon reading this, was to check my profile. What did you expect to find, I wonder? That I'm a child? Not of voting age?

It´s the last recourse of those who can´t cope with the message to smear the messenger...  Wink/being sarcastic

In some cases, it can help understand the perspective, though. Especially when the post is somewhat weird or controversial. (In this case, primarily the latter, I´d say.)


747-600X: To be honest, I'd expected a lot more flame-throwing and such. One of the reasons I haven't participated in these forums much in recent months (years) is the flame-throwing; perhaps it's come under control a bit...???

I think at this point there´s simply a certain amount of exhaustion in all of the primary protagonists...  Wink/being sarcastic


747-600X: and, 2-It is a great American sadness that someone can't say what they mean without having the reply, "no wonder you don't have a sex life." I'm sure it must be nice to be that shallow and not give a sh_t, but again, our founding fathers would have given a sh_t and a little more.

Apart from apparently having yourself set up for it, don´t mind JeffM too much. He´s our beloved pet troll and he usually doesn´t mean serious harm. It´s been a while since he´s really ripped off someone´s body parts in earnest... Big grin


747-600X: Klaus, thank you for your comments; I'm surprised to see that you're the only non-US participant in this discussion.

My "fellow foreigners" Wink/being sarcastic are probably just too busy at the other battlegrounds.


747-600X: As for the piece itself, it is not taken from anything else, I wrote it October 1st and had it proofread by a Political Science and an English professor each on October 2nd.

No harm, then. That can explain it...
It just doesn´t "feel" like an original post in style and diction (it´s unusually "literary"), so I was a little suspicious. I don´t complain at all, but it raised a few red flags.

It´s quite common that people post uncredited articles in here; But this one at least hasn´t popped up on the Google radar, yet.  Wink/being sarcastic


747-600X: There are more paragraph breaks than are evident; ...

Simply use double returns for paragraph separation, and triple ones for major sections. And <center><hr width="75%"></center> in exceptional cases as above.  Wink/being sarcastic

It helps a lot. Vertical separation is always better than indentation anyway.


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2531 times:

Thanks for affirming my reasons for voting for BUSH. Now, go call someone who really gives a rats ass. Maybe Howard Dean will listen to you.

User currently onlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21465 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2519 times:

Boeing7E7: Thanks for affirming my reasons for voting for BUSH. Now, go call someone who really gives a rats ass.

Do you really think that spite is a sustainable reason for choosing your country´s course?

Maybe it´s about more than that...  Wink/being sarcastic


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2516 times:

You're really making me laugh.

User currently onlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21465 posts, RR: 53
Reply 16, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2504 times:

Boeing7E7: You're really making me laugh.

I live to serve!  Smile


User currently offlineGreg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2477 times:

That's about the biggest self indulgence piece of crap I've scanned in a long time (and this is from a lawyer!).

I don't know what's more disturbing....the fact you copied it and didn't give them credit....or that you wrote that horrible diatribe and want credit for it!


User currently offline747-600X From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 2792 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2440 times:

Greg,

Since I didn't copy it, it would have to be option B) that I wrote that horrible diatribe and want credit for it, though I don't recall any statement particularly to the tone of wanting credit for it.

By the way, what has self-indulgence got to do with it? Is that what we're calling dissent now: self-indulgence? It's a good maneuver.

Governing Official: "Let's do X."
Citizen: "But X will end all life on Earth."
Governing Official: "Gee, that would include your life, so you must be wrapped up in self-indulgent, horrible diatribes."

Very impactful - you really are a lawyer!



"Mental health is reality at all cost." -- M. Scott Peck, 'The Road Less Traveled'
User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2428 times:

As said before:

Request denied by this voter.

This nation has nothing to appologize for.




-NWA742


User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2403 times:

I'll be sure to take your ideas under advisement....AS I MARK MY BALLOT FOR PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH...

Doesn't surprise me to read such liberal crap from someone from Illinois...Kerry central!  Insane  Nuts


User currently offlineGreg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2383 times:

Basically, 747-600X, in my opinion...it's likely the worst post I've seen on here in a while...although a bit short of the personal problems, sex issues, and dying children/parents/pets stuff that's been posted in the last year.

Lighten up. Even though it's Non-Av....it is on airliners.net. Judging by most the post replies...it's a waste of bandwidth.

Please, please, don't try to suck me into your psuedo intellectual crap---it won't work. It's not even remotely clever.

Strictly my opinion, of course.


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6816 posts, RR: 34
Reply 22, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2352 times:

OPNL- The Libertarian Party has long espoused the ability to have "NONE OF THE ABOVE" on every ballot.

They also advocate a mechanism by which if NOTA wins in successive election cycles, the position is eliminated. Obviously, that can't happen with POTUS, but it would probably drive down the B.S. factor and raise the quality of candidates. It would also open the door for more visibility and accessibility for third party candidates.

Clinton didn't win on a majority, and while I have a problem with a winning candidate only having a plurality and not majority, I think NOTA would have as drastic an effect on campaign reform as imaginable.

On topic of the original note, it started out so well and fruitful, but devolved into zealotry. I indeed will be voting. It is my sacred duty, my protected right and one that I absolutely cherish.

Those that refuse to vote have NO business daring to open their yaps to bitch about things, IMHO.

There is a candidate out there for everyone, and if everyone would get off their asses and get in the game, find that candidate for them and vote their conscience, our Republic would be better off.

As the saying goes, "Democracy is not a spectator sport." and just because you don't care about politics, doesn't mean that politics doesn't care about you. Get in the game.


User currently offline747-600X From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 2792 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2311 times:

Well... it's not even remotely liberal crap. In the modern sense, it's thoroughly conservative. I'm glad to see a libertarian participant in the discussion.

As for Greg, all I can say is that it remains amusing that you urge me to lighten up and then begin, "Please, please,"-ing me.

For what it's worth, you'll notice that I don't endorse Kerry as much as I do "not-Bush," whereby Slider's NOTA idea comes in handy. Kerry merely comes as a measure of necessity since the manipulative way the system has been structured renders "not-Bush" all but equal to "Kerry". Both are subject to enormous persuasion on behalf of people with many, many zeros on their paychecks.

I didn't write the piece initially with the intent of including the first few paragraphs; the goal was to state a request for people to vote for someone who would leave choices regarding (for example) sexuality up to God, where they belong, rather than voting for someone who would play God. The first paragraphs were added because I have come to feel that if a society participated actively and passionately in the creation of its own government, it would tend to breed more capable and humble leaders as a matter of course.



"Mental health is reality at all cost." -- M. Scott Peck, 'The Road Less Traveled'
User currently offlineAirtran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3704 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2299 times:
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I’m not buying this load of crap. America has nothing to apologize for. This country sets the pace for the world. We do what we need to do to preserve our interests, and still try to look out for the little guy. The world is obsessed with our fashion, our music, and our movie stars. We are the city on the hill that the rest of the world gazes with amazement.
As for your little rant about gay marriage, God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. If you’re a homo and you feel upset with Bus because he doesn’t want you to get married, well then deal with it. Ask most men who get married how much they like it, its not a picnic. Bush, and Kerry for that matter are both against gay marriage. That's right, the most liberal senator in the congress doesn’t want gays to have the right to get married. Bush, and other politicians are trying to stick to the guiding principles that this wonderful country was founded on. For 228 years we have done a damn good job sticking to our Constitution, we have amended it when needed, and have challenged it where we felt it was wrong, but when it is all said and done we still live by it.
And another point. We don’t owe the Native American a damn thing. The fact the they get free college education, kickbacks from casinos, the ability to live under their own laws on reservations, reduced taxes on goods while on the reservations must have slipped by you. It was called Manifest Destiny, which was when we began our westward expansion of this country. Nations of people are meant to be conquered, its the way life works. Look at the former Roman empires of the past, the conquered most of the known western world yet you don’t see their ancestors apologizing for it. Civilizations rise and fall. Someday America will fall; it is an inevitable and irreversible cycle that we must all deal with.
You make so many points in your post the just absolutely piss me off. People like you make me wish that my grandfather were still alive, that way he could come in and teach you some reality. He could show you the price that he paid on the beeches of Normandy. He could tell you about being 18 years old and shipping off to war and watching people that weren't boys, but not yet men accept their fate with honor and courage. We sacrifice so much to make sure that the world is a better place. It really bothers me when people like you come out and flame their own country.
The crappiest thing about your whole post, and my response is that you are an editor for this website. I'm sure that within a few minutes of me posting this reply, I will get an email from the administrator saying that it was deleted because I was to harsh.

______America. Love it or get the hell out._________



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
25 Mia : What the hell are you talking about? "America has nothing to apoligize for." America needs to apologize for: The Spanish American War Hiroshima Nagasa
26 Lan_Fanatic : What the hell are you talking about? "America has nothing to apoligize for." America needs to apologize for: Deposition and Murder of Salvador Allende
27 Mia : Good for you man, I agree wholeheartedly that Pinochet and his right-wing free market policies have really helped the poor Chileans. I met someone lik
28 Post contains images Jessman : Mia; The Spanish-American war; The Spanish were herding Cubans into Concentration camps. Thousands died from exposure and disease. The Spanish needed
29 Lan_Fanatic : In fact, Mia, the guy you met in Italy is right. You wouldn't like living in a communist shithole with fixed prices, excessively high taxes for import
30 Post contains images 747-600X : Always interesting how things turn out. Don't worry, of course, this'll sort of have to boil away in a couple more weeks (this thread, I mean). Anyway
31 Boeing7E7 : This thread is like a Peanuts cartoon... Wah Wah Wah.... Wha...Wha Wha...Wha Wha Wha....
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