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Did A Unit In Iraq Refuse It's Mission?  
User currently offlineGarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5346 posts, RR: 53
Posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1316 times:

To start off, let me be clear as to why I'm posting this article. First, it has to deal with Reservists from my home state. Second, if true, this would represent a big-time breach of military discipline and perhaps the first that I can think of in the history of the US Armed Forces.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20041015/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_unit_investigation




South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29784 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1291 times:

No it isn't unprecidented.

There was that ammo ship in WWII that blew up in San Diego, afterwards the stevadores refused to handle any more due to safety conditions.

Can't remember the naval unit involved, but there are a lot of racial allegations with that one, because it was an all black unit that mutineed.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineGarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5346 posts, RR: 53
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1283 times:

I do remember reading about that incident, L-188, now that I think about it. Thanks for jogging my memory!


South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29784 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1277 times:

Well it is going to be interesting to see what happens in any case.

I note there, because their commander, Brig. Gen. James E. Chambers has been a fairly frequent target of negative commentary by Col. David Hackworth over the way that he runs the 13 COSCOM, of which the 343rd is a part.

http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Hacks%20Target.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=89&rnd=901.0122441184969

Also not that this is a lot smaller then the San Diego incident and it wouldn't surprise me if some of the lesser privates are let off because they where following a sargents orders not to drive, think of the movie, "The Caine Mutiney"



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29784 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1256 times:

Here you go a couple links to the Port Chicago, California disaster/mutiny.

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq80-1.htm

http://www.ezl.com/~fireball/Disaster22.htm

and another Hackworth link where he discusses "General Jimmie"

http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Hacks%20Target.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=86&rnd=599.1564248228889




OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1200 times:

perhaps the first that I can think of in the history of the US Armed Forces.

these things "luckely" happen.

because sometimes the orders are not right & front line staff is the first to recognise it..

Numerous examples occasions on unit level.

e.g. during the first gulf war some Apache units began to object countinueing slaughtering fleeing Iraqi troops..


User currently offlineDl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11446 posts, RR: 76
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1172 times:
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GP...the incident L-188 refers to was the Port Chicago disaster. An ammo ship blew up due to unstable weaponry overloading a cargo ship. The rate at which the ships were being loaded and the fact that the stevedores were black played a part in the inquiry.

This new incident is not the first time in military history this sort of thing has happened, but it is the latest for us. It usually results from a breakdown in the chain of command somewhere. The use of National Guard officers may end up being the cause of this. IMHO, SOME OF the officers who are sent into the Guard straight from college ROTC or the OJT OCS, who did not do well enough to be given an appointment to the regular army, have a larger than usual proportion of underqualified leaders. The regulars who join after a tour or two of service prior to entering the civilian world, and the good officers who come up through the system are not enough to overcome the inadequacies of some of these other officers who advance because of politics (good ole boy network) and due to a lack of qualified people to take the jobs no one else wants. I mean, how many qualified experts want the job of being the supply officer for a National Guard outfit? Training and time will overcome this, but when a situation like this comes up it represents a failure of the leadership to address issues and poor morale effectively.

The unit was a supply unit, and the platoon that refused to show up for the meeting was replaced by another unit in the same company immediately. The chain of command will take the heat for this, as well as the troops. If they had a beef the way to express it was either using the open door policy every CO has or go to the IG. Mutiny on the battlefield is probably not what those soldiers realized they were committing, but they are truly in deep, deep shit. The parents and family members will complain, and I am certain it will be used as a bludgeon over the administration, but when you volunteer to join the military you have accepted the risks associated as well as the obligation to go into harms way. The military does not promise it will be safe, or even that you will not be asked to die for your country, it actually tells you that may be the case. These guys were to bring water and fuel to the forward areas, and decided their vehicles did not have enough applique armor to survive any contigency. I can only assume they made this decision thinking it would be treated as a work action back home. That was incorrect.

[Edited 2004-10-16 16:26:05]


Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1087 times:

Gee. Aren't these guys just as bad as draft dodgers? Or traitors? They are at least insubordinate aren't they?

User currently offlineLtbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13004 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1057 times:

This refusal of a mission could be very bad in many ways. A soldier doesn not have any right of refusal to follow an order, no matter how deadly it could be. Those who participated and led the refusal, will probably be ruined for life. They will face charges, a military court, possible plea bargains, and some jail. They will be dishonorably or less than honorably discharged, with that following them all the rest of their lives, limiting their access to some government benefits (certain educational loans and grants), never be able to hold many government jobs or some jobs with government contractors and discrimation by some private employers. As they may have committed a felony, upon conviction they may be denied the right to vote for a long term or the rest of their lives. Them and their families will face shame by many in their communities.
They will become 'poster children' for those in the left-wing whom object strongly to our war in Iraq. They may deter some from going into the service. They may also send a wrong message to the insurgants in Iraq and anti-American terrorists, that we are being beaten, or they are beating us. Bush may force a strong punishment for these soldiers, and make it public that it be so to attract votes. Kerry may use it as an example of the lack of equipment our soldiers have, per his view that Bush's (and his inner circle of advisors) had overly optimistic planning/views of our actions in Iraq.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21384 posts, RR: 54
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1051 times:

One point should not remain forgotten (as it has been so far, apparently): In exchange for obedience to the chain of command, soldiers need to rely on their superiors to take the responsibility that automatically comes with the power of command.

And if that responsibility is grossly neglected, even soldiers have the right and sometimes even the duty to refuse an order.

It will certainly be the object of the investigation whether that was the case, but you´re making that a bit too simple for yourself.

[Edited 2004-10-17 05:02:01]

User currently offlineQantas077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5850 posts, RR: 40
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1040 times:

the soldiers concerned said there equiptment was too unsafe to carry out the mission, good on them for refusing to carry it out, alot of soldiers have been complaining of poor equiptment, hardly a good way to fight a war with poor equiptment.


a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineDl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11446 posts, RR: 76
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1034 times:
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A soldier in the US military has the duty to not obey an ILLEGAL order. For instance you cannot violate the laws of land warfare, even if ordered to do so. You also cannot disobey and order that has been lawfully or directly given if it is simply risky or dangerous.

The chain of command does have the duty to provide for the troops welfare, but the overriding concern is to accomplish the mission. Their failure to ensure the troops understood the mission and were properly motivated, trained and led to carry out their mission is very bad. It unfortunately happens in every conflict.

The soldiers involved have been released to their units, and will probably face disciplinary action later for their violations of the UCMJ. The commanders involved will almost undoubtedly be relieved as soon as practical. This is an ugly thing that is the result of inadequate training and poor morale.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29784 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1027 times:

Still I am curious to here what actually happened.

We are just getting bits and pieces right now.

More will come out when these guys get back to the states and have access to the media.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21384 posts, RR: 54
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1024 times:

Dl021: This is an ugly thing that is the result of inadequate training and poor morale.

What kind of information do you have that unequivocally tells you it could not have been gross neglect on the part of the higher-ups?

If you have that kind of information, please share!


User currently offlineQantas077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5850 posts, RR: 40
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1013 times:

DI021

the overriding concern then is totally fucked up, the paramount concern should be of the troops welfare, not the mission and getting contaminated fuel to where it needs to go in equiptment that is a liabilty to there own safety.

if these troops carry out missions which result in there death due to poor quality equiptment, then how do you explain that to the loved ones left behind?!?! you go to war, you go with the best equpitment your resources to provide you with, not substandard equiptment.




a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29784 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1009 times:

Qantas, I don't know what info that you are getting, but apparently there are some claims they refused to drive deadlined trucks, some claims that they refused because of the dangerous trips, some claims that they refused to deliver the fuel because it was water contaminated and the management as it where where trying to offload it on another unit after it had been rejected once.

Like I said, some of those reasons are more valid then the others.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineDl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11446 posts, RR: 76
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 996 times:
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Klaus...If you read what I wrote instead of reading into it, you will see that I laid the blame at the feet of the officers in charge. You nor anyone else not there knows whether the fuel was contaminated or the vehicles were not properly equipped, and if it was the IG should have been contacted if the chain of command refused to act on it. If that had been done everything would have ground to a halt. If the CO of the unit was sending troops out in deadlined equipment to deliver faulty materiel, then he would be held responsible. But the way to get that taken care of is to use the processes available. The US military has an Inspector General for every unit, and they are always available for contact. To disobey and mutiny is a breach of discipline, which is deadly in a combat zone.

QANtas The mission is always the overriding concern....sorry. A good leader conserves his assets and takes care of them so they will be better able to carry out future missions, but mission requirements come first. If troops are sacrificed unnecessarily the repercussions would be bad for the leader that wasted his troops, but if the leader is afraid to ask his people to go into danger then he is derelict and unable to do his job. One of the best lessons I learned in the military was this....take care of the troops and they will take care of the mission.

All that being said, it sounds like the 13th Coscom CO is failing at his leadership job.

[Edited 2004-10-17 05:59:23]

[Edited 2004-10-17 06:09:17]


Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineQantas077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5850 posts, RR: 40
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 994 times:

this is one article that i've just come across.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/15/military.investigation/index.html

http://www.asia.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=6519915 this is not really related to refusal to carry out orders but it's quite an interesting read.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200410/s1221488.htm



a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
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