So there's a shortage of flu vaccine, which may or may not be artificially created.
So?
And now the government is pressing charges for people allegedly "price gouging."
Again I say
So what?
Whatever happened to supply and demand and the Capitalist system?
If there's a shortage and much higher demand than what supply is available, whoever has the product should be able to charge whatever they want for it. Perhaps even auction it off.
As always, complaints about pricing are coming from the geriatric crowd. They always use the same arguments:
It's so wrong.
I'm on a fixed income.
I had to wait 3 days, in hot sun, and blinding snow. Sometimes simultaneously.
I'm a WWI vet.
etc etc etc
STFU people. You want it. You pay for it.
If not. Nobodys forcing you. Take some vitamin C, wear a jacket and go back to your bingo games and demanding early bird senior discounts on your Dennys dinners. If your health is that fragile where a cold or the flu will kill you, your days are probably already numbered anyway. Let someone who REALLY needs the flu-like a 10 year old with HIV or leukemia get it.
Flu vaccine, unlike natural monopolies such as electric and gas, should NOT be subject to price controls. It is not a "necessary" commodity.
I commend these people for rightfully wanting to make a profit where they see an opportunity.
LHMark From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 7255 posts, RR: 51 Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2657 times:
Tell you what, MattD, If you're ever drowning in the ocean, and I'm on the pier, I'll sell you a rope
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
Matt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 51 Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2644 times:
I know how to swim. I was a varsity swimmer in high school. We took Sierra League champs in 1991!
Besides, if the water looks too choppy to swim in, then maybe, using my tiny brain, I'll realize not to go in the water in the first place.
L-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29350 posts, RR: 62 Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2644 times:
Could be worse.
Just heard Kerry on the capaign trail blaming Bush for the shortage!
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
LHMark From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 7255 posts, RR: 51 Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2632 times:
Good Idea. I'll tell my grandmother to use her brain to not get the flu.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
Matt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 51 Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2631 times:
Ever heard of Lysol? Wearing a jacket? Eating properly?
Besides, lets not drift away from the focus of this topic, which is supply and demand.
How is this any different than say...me listing one of my reel to reel decks on Ebay, asking $1000 for it (and getting an offer for $1000), but selling it to the guy who bids only $300 because he "really, REALLY" wants it? Or perhaps he "needs" it to copy some old recordings of his great grandfather onto CD and he doesn't have a reel to reel machine and he doesn't have $1000, because that's "too expensive". Or maybe he's on a "fixed" income.
Why should I be forced to eat away my profits because of this guys "emergency"?
Scorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 4934 posts, RR: 47 Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2603 times:
How is this any different than say...me listing one of my reel to reel decks on Ebay, asking $1000 for it (and getting an offer for $1000), but selling it to the guy who bids only $300 because he "really, REALLY" wants it?
Leskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 72 Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2587 times:
Wow... and there I thought that some discussions on a.net couldn't get any worse... but some just have to prove that there always is yet another step that you can take.
You're actually comparing a flu vaccine to a reel-to-reel machine??? Why not add polio vaccines to the list, or, better yet, any and all types of medication: medical treatment only to those who can afford it - let all the others die... if you can't afford it, then you're not worthy of living...
L410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5394 posts, RR: 19 Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2582 times:
Matt,
how about hand out Bibles to seniors with Dubya's autograph and personal advice to pray not to get sick? I mean why waste paper... just round them up and just shoot anyone above 70 as a preventive measure before the flu really spreads! I think you'd make a great commander of the firing squad! Or do you think the gas chambers are more efficient?
If you don't see any difference between some non-essential electronic toy and a vaccine which might be a matter of life and death then you seriously need your head checked.
Is this the "compassionate conservatism" at its best?
Matt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 51 Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2574 times:
You're actually comparing a flu vaccine to a reel-to-reel machine???
In the sense of supply versus demand, yes. I stand behind the comparison.
all types of medication: medical treatment only to those who can afford it - let all the others die... if you can't afford it, then you're not worthy of living
If it means running my business the way I see fit, within the parameters of safe and legal practice, and not using my tax dollars to support others for doing nothing, then yeah. If that's the way you want to look at it.
Garnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5244 posts, RR: 55 Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2550 times:
Anybody wanna bet that when Matt goes senior he'll be one of the first complaining about lack of adequate care for seniors?
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
Mrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2523 times:
Matt, Let me first point out one citation of yours: your own words
using my tiny brain
Yes, you should have used it before posting this, whereby I doubt that you even possess such a thing!
I think Matt_D, now is the best opportunity to tell you what big f--l you are - I have read some of your posts before and just said: OK, I will shut up, this guy might been grown up when he is 40 only - you act like a teenager who is indoctrinated by the people in the environment and hasn't learned how to consider different sides of an aspect.
Man, always uttering that people should not complain if they do not agree does not bring our society forward. It is normal to search for alternatives to the present situation - otherwise we would be stuck in a status quo. And Remember, many people, like the ex German Chancellor have pointed out that only reforms make a society vital.
First, you rely on simple text-book definitions of capitalism.. try to see that society consists of many more variables. Second: it is normal to have a discursive way on topics on society. Why shouldn't people raise their concerns that prices are so high? Why shouldn't they investigate if some decision-processes in society went wrong, probably due to corruption or the carelessness of managers and politicians? Third: People like you, who do not see issues critically and are not ready to consider alternative opinions are dangerous. Bandwaggoning - i.e. saying, yeah this is good because my leader says it - has often lead to the collapse of society and dangerous outcomes. Have a look at history (with the c--p you wrote I doubt you ever did it).
Society is complex, people are different, and that is great. People think about issues and try to affect changes in everyone's favor (you must be a big supporter of freedom of speech as a happy capitalist). If you are not ready to consider the variety in the world and want to force other people what you believe is the only right interpretation, then please do not complain if people start to resist you. The latter can be transferred from an individual to a society as such - hope you got the hint.
Matt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 51 Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2516 times:
Whitehatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2496 times:
So there's a shortage of flu vaccine, which may or may not be artificially created.
Created in Britain. A factory in Liverpool has had to scrap its production due to a contamination issue. That factory supplies the UK and USA with a large proportion of their flu vaccines.
Better safe than sorry.
And now the government is pressing charges for people allegedly "price gouging."
Again I say
So what?
Whatever happened to supply and demand and the Capitalist system?
I wasn't aware that "ripping people off in an emergency situation" was a noble Capitalist principle. Would you also approve of selling blood to hurricane victims at hugely inflated prices? As for seniors and veterans, guess who flu kills the most of?
Sometimes people have the strangest ideas...and sometimes the just plain sickest.
Qb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4 Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2465 times:
Just when we learn that, after their drugs, many US senior citizens are now crossing the border north bound (yep, in "socialized" Canada) to get their flu shot...
For MattD and other ignorants of his kind, the flu is very dangerous for older people, with a very high incidence of mortality.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
Goose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 17 Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2462 times:
I wasn't aware that "ripping people off in an emergency situation" was a noble Capitalist principle. Would you also approve of selling blood to hurricane victims at hugely inflated prices? As for seniors and veterans, guess who flu kills the most of?
Doesn't the Red Cross - which is an independant charity if I'm not mistaken - supply and transport a good portion of the blood to disaster zones worldwide, as well as provide other forms of aid? They're not mandated to do so by anyone, it's just one of the tenets of their organization - they ask for people to donate their blood and ask for other donations during drives for blankets and so on, and deliver them to people who need it free of charge.
The Red Cross doesn't charge because it doesn't want to. That doesn't mean they couldn't.... nor does it mean that someone else couldn't, if it meant they could turn a profit. We would consider it abhorrant, true, and could face public scorn.... we must realize that charity isn't in all of us. Unfortunately, the potential for being mercenary and acting in your own self-interest, is...
But then again, if a Starbucks store can charge New York ambulance workers $130 for water during September 11th, and still manage to attract customers.... I'm sure someone could logically sell blood to hospitals or blankets to victims in a disaster zone without suffering from any long-term detriment to their business.
Leskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 72 Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2462 times:
In essence, I can only fully agree with Mrniji and Whitehatter - and just to build on what Whitehatter mentions: the shortage was created, at least in part, due to a contamination issue at the plant that makes the vaccine.
In other words: the company that makes the vaccine messes up and then creates extra profits from being too stupid to keep it's own house clean!!!
Isn't it wonderful to see capitalism at work like this? That is precisely one of the reasons why I absolutely support the idea of the founders of Germany's system after the war that pure capitalism is just as bad as communism: neither one works.
Schoenorama From Spain, joined Apr 2001, 2440 posts, RR: 28 Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2461 times:
Matt D:
"As always, complaints about pricing are coming from the geriatric crowd. "
Is that the same crowd that fought against the Nazis and the Japs and basically fought for the freedoms you now enjoy so much!?
" If your health is that fragile where a cold or the flu will kill you, your days are probably already numbered anyway."
Please assure me you're not a doctor!
"Let someone who REALLY needs the flu-like a 10 year old with HIV or leukemia get it."
I thought you said you believed more in the "You-want-it-You-pay-for-it" system?
"I commend these people for rightfully wanting to make a profit where they see an opportunity."
And 'the profit' would be staying alive, right?
"Besides, if the water looks too choppy to swim in, then maybe, using my tiny brain, I'll realize not to go in the water in the first place."
So it's the 'geriatric crowd's fault when they get sick, right? It's got absolutely nothing to do with fascists like you with 'Herrenrasse' tendencies denying the weaker their medicines.
"Ever heard of Lysol? Wearing a jacket? Eating properly?"
To eat properly, wear a jacker of use Lysol (whatever that is), one first needs money! Money they are already spending on much more expensive medicines because Führer Bush doesn't let them by them cheap in Canada.
"Besides, lets not drift away from the focus of this topic, which is supply and demand."
You're the one going on about the 'geriatric crowd' not eating properly...
"How is this any different than say...me listing one of my reel to reel decks on Ebay, asking $1000 for it (and getting an offer for $1000), but selling it to the guy who bids only $300 because he "really, REALLY" wants it?"
Because these people, REALLY, REALLY need it TO STAY ALIVE and enjoy life a little bit longer after working their ASSES of for 50 years and giving birth to little egocentric bast@rds like you.
"Why should I be forced to eat away my profits because of this guys "emergency"?"
May I suggest you start a pharmacy in Florida, Dr Mengele?
"If it means running my business the way I see fit, within the parameters of safe and legal practice, and not using my tax dollars to support others for doing nothing, then yeah. If that's the way you want to look at it."
Are you suggesting the 'geriatic crowd' should get off their lazy asses and start working again?
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
Mrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2456 times:
But then again, if a Starbucks store can charge New York ambulance workers $130 for water during September 11th, and still manage to attract customers.... I'm sure someone could logically sell blood to hospitals or blankets to victims in a disaster zone without suffering from any long-term detriment to their business.
This is incredible - Goose, many thanks for the info (or is this website socialist propaganda, mattd?).. MattD, did you work that time at Starbucks?? Yes, Probably for receiving free health insurance, right
Goose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 17 Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2438 times:
This is incredible - Goose, many thanks for the info (or is this website socialist propaganda, mattd?)..
Checking around that website, it appears that they devote quite a few articles debunking popular myths about GW Bush perpetrated in the public eye (rumour) and the media.... so I'd suggest they're very least a "fact checker" website and objective in nature.... if not right-of-centre.
Either way, my original point was that.... if you wanted to start a business which would pay people in exchange for blood and compete with other collectors for donors.... and then resell that blood to needy hospitals for a price dependant upon fluctuations in the market and demand (such as disasters).... would you object to that? Knowing that said company would be competing with the Red Cross, which gives away blood for free to the needy?
Matt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 51 Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2432 times:
Is that the same crowd that fought against the Nazis and the Japs and basically fought for the freedoms you now enjoy so much!?
What does one have to do with the other? I know a police officer who hears the same argument with a lot of people he pulls over for speeding: "I'm a vet...I put my life on the line when this country called!"
he usually shuts them up by asking "what does military service have to do with the fact that you were doing 85 in a 55?"
Same thing here. I KNOW that they fought the Japs and the Krauts. But how does that somehow entitle them to a free ride?
Please assure me you're not a doctor!
I never said I was.
I thought you said you believed more in the "You-want-it-You-pay-for-it" system?
I stand corrected.
And 'the profit' would be staying alive, right?
The profit would be getting whatever the market would bear after costs and expenses were deducted.
So it's the 'geriatric crowd's fault when they get sick, right?
Of course not. But by the same token, a little prevention can go a long way, which is the point I was trying to make with the 'swimming' example. Some people wait until they are in a jam and then try to work themselves out of it rather than trying to avoid getting in the mess in the first place.
Money they are already spending on much more expensive medicines because Führer Bush doesn't let them by them cheap in Canada.
If Canadian companies shared some of the cost of R/D and advertising then I don't see what the problem would be.
Because these people, REALLY, REALLY need it TO STAY ALIVE and enjoy life a little bit longer after working their ASSES of for 50 years and giving birth to little egocentric bast@rds like you.
Whose fault is it for not planning for retirement?
Are you suggesting the 'geriatic crowd' should get off their lazy asses and start working again?
Not unless they are fixin' to demand that I pay for them. Otherwise, they and the government has no business telling me what I should and shouldn't charge me for a product.
NWDC10 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2412 times:
There is nothing wrong with capitalism but GREED is wrong. But that is just the way it is in the USA. If McDonalds can sell a big mac for $10.00, they would sell them for that much. Sorry to say, it's all about making the most money. Suppose for example there is an injection to actually cure a type of cancer. Because there is a cure, i know with out doubt that that vaccine would be so dam expensive. "I have the cure but your going to have to pay alot of money for my vaccine". It's all about making the most money. Robert NWDC10
Mrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2400 times:
Exactly, Robert! Your post demonstrates the decline of values, altruism and society - too bad it is everything about consumption, selling and economies of scale
Matt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 51 Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2389 times:
Greed and Capitalism and ambition all go hand in hand. It's also a self-correcting system. If greed causes sales and profits to go down, the seller has no choice but to lower prices or face liquidation, which, incidentally is why gas prices remain as high as they are.
Is charging $2.50 a gallon when it costs $1.20 to produce that gallon wrong? No. Is it greedy? perhaps.
But as long as people continue to pay it, why SHOULD the oil companies lower their prices?
They won't. There is no reason to.
Now if people start getting serious about it, they will pick one or two large companies and wage an ONGOING boycott (none of these lame ass one day "Wednesday gas-outs) against them. Eventually, the message will come across and they will have no choice but to lower prices. Then, when ExxonMobil prices drop from $2.50 a gallon to $1.65, and people start flooding those stations, BP, ChevronTexaco et.al. will have no choice but to follow suit.
25 Schoenorama: Matt D: "Same thing here. I KNOW that they fought the Japs and the Krauts. But how does that somehow entitle them to a free ride?" The point is that t
26 Goose: The oil prices are high because of the situation in Iraq, together with the unstable situation in Nigeria and Venezuela. It's got to do with higher ri
27 RT514: Is charging $2.50 a gallon when it costs $1.20 to produce that gallon wrong? No. Is it greedy? perhaps. But as long as people continue to pay it, why
28 NWDC10: These people who are gouging the price of the flu vaccine, i hope they go to prison for along time. This is totally wrong. Robert NWDC10
29 Goose: These people who are gouging the price of the flu vaccine, i hope they go to prison for along time. This is totally wrong. Wrong? Well.... it might be
30 Whitehatter: In other words: the company that makes the vaccine messes up and then creates extra profits from being too stupid to keep it's own house clean!!! The
31 LHMark: Of course not. But by the same token, a little prevention can go a long way, which is the point I was trying to make with the 'swimming' example. Some
32 Airplay: This thread has "TROLL" written all over it. Flu vaccine, unlike natural monopolies such as electric and gas, should NOT be subject to price controls.
33 L-188: Airplay your talking about devestating the funeral and embalming industries.....Think of the gravediggers children!!! Oh well, at least there will be
34 Airplay: ....not currently FDA certificed...period Just to clarify, many products used approved for distribution in one country may not be similarily approved
35 Nancy: I second what Airplay said, it is going to cost tons of money if there is a flu epidemic. We lessen the chances of this happening with increased vacci
36 RT514: This is not neccessarily a reflection of one country being more careful than the other. It's simply a matter of one country's food and drug administra
37 N6376m: Matt, I think there's even a more basic explanation that is consistent with free market principles. Specifically, I'm referring to the fact that given
38 B2707SST: Thanks to government policy, the price of flu vaccine is so low that it's not profitable for most pharmaceutical firms to make it. The result is that
39 N771AN: Of course the billion and one regulations that medical and healthcare companies have to dodge through don't help either.
40 Dtwclipper: Flu season could cost $20B Report: Lack of vaccine could limit shots for employees; cost to employers could be up nearly 50%. October 18, 2004: 7:41 A
41 L-188: realizes that Canadian standards for drug safety are just as exacting as the American counterpart I actually don't doubt that, but you still need to g
42 RT514: I actually don't doubt that, but you still need to go throught the approval process to sell it in the US. Absolutely. It's just irritating when lack o
43 VSLover: thanks for the info tommy thompson: "there is no vaccine crisis" yeah, but he goes on to reiterate the only people who should get the shots, and every
44 Johnboy: Wow, who left the basement door unlocked again?
45 Falcon84: I guess MattD didn't have problem with people in Florida trying to sell 16 oz bottles of water to those displaced by the hurricanes for $10 a pop? Or
46 Dtwclipper: Do you think if we all helped out, and got him an Rx for Zoloft and maybe some Valium it might help.
47 L-188: Absolutely. It's just irritating when lack of U.S. FDA approval is made to insinuate that the medication is unsafe -- especially when it's done to fur
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