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Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way  
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21470 posts, RR: 53
Posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3356 times:

Russia's Lower Parliament House OKs Kyoto Treaty (washingtonpost.com):
MOSCOW - Russia's lower house of parliament ratified the Kyoto Protocol on combatting global warming Friday, putting the sweeping environmental pact firmly on the road to realization and giving Russia a hoped-for step forward toward joining the World Trade Organization.

So much for the Bush administration´s attempts to sabotage the first global step towards ecological cooperation.  Big thumbs up

There´s no doubt the Kyoto process will continue to require substantial effort and that there will be setbacks. But that´s not the main point.

The Kyoto protocol´s primary objective was and is to pave the way for a cooperation on a global scale to answer the growing and equally global threat of ecological disasters as a consequence of reckless pollution and waste of energy.

It is very sad that the biggest polluter on the planet - the USA - has chosen to abrogate its obvious chance of leadership in favour of denial as the only response, leaving the profit and growth based on new technologies mostly to its competitors.

But such things can change.

75 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN771AN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3328 times:

It is very sad that the biggest polluter on the planet - the USA - has chosen to abrogate its obvious chance of leadership in favour of denial as the only response, leaving the profit and growth based on new technologies mostly to its competitors.

The United States, per unit of output, is not the world's biggest polluter. The treaty is a joke as evidenced by the fact that even your own country can't seem to abide by its obligations.


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3301 times:

The United States, per unit of output, is not the world's biggest polluter

That's an oxymoron. You mean per GDP per head?


User currently onlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5712 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3299 times:

With less then 5% of world population the US has 25% share on emissions of greenhouse gases. Simple as that.

User currently offlineN771AN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3297 times:

Output in production. GDP per head could be relatively high like Switzerland but that's due to them being a services economy rather than an industrial one. I am not too sure of the data regarding per GDP per head. We might be on the top of that list, but again, we also produce more stuff per GDP per head than anyone else. We have one of the highest worker productivities, but unlike other other economies with high worker productivities, a good percentage of ours is in industry and actually making stuff.

User currently offlineN771AN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3289 times:

With less then 5% of world population the US has 25% share on emissions of greenhouse gases. Simple as that.

And more than 25% of the world's economy and 25% of the world's production. We are more efficient and cleaner at making stuff, but we make ALOT of stuff.


User currently offlineTeva From France, joined Jan 2001, 1872 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3285 times:

Good news for the planet.

N771AN, this treaty is probably not perfect. But if you look at the ratio pollution/citizen, it is really impressive.
ANd the idea is not to ask the US people to abandon their way of life. But do you know there are cars in the world that are comfortable, fast, and "drink" only 5 to 6 litters/100 kilometers. If the American consumers ask their car makers to offer those cars, they will keep their way of life, save money (fuel is so expensive today...) and protect the environment.
Here, I am ot talking about a technologic revolution. The technology is there.
And if the US car makers take a lead on this, they can develop even better engine, and why not.... create jobs in the US.
That's an example.
There are plenty of others.
Teva



Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3279 times:

So per 'unit production' (whatever that is), output of green house gases is low? Just how do you measure 'production'?

User currently offlineN771AN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3281 times:

But do you know there are cars in the world that are comfortable, fast, and "drink" only 5 to 6 litters/100 kilometers

I happen to own a Prius so don't lecture me about environmentalism (Prius gets 25km/L or 4L/100K). The treaty is a joke. And yes I read the whole thing.


User currently offlineN771AN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3269 times:

Ask these people, that's where I read it.

http://www.economist.co.uk


User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3252 times:

No matter what the bushies say or think, with Russia's endorsement, Kyoto now becomes the law for the countries who signed it. These countries will have to adapt their economy consequently, making them more efficient and competitive. And with a barrel of oil at 50$ plus, it does make quite a lot of sense.

Now let the negotiations for Kyoto II begin.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineN771AN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3246 times:

No matter what the bushies say or think, with Russia's endorsement, Kyoto now becomes the law for the countries who signed it.

You do realize that its already been broken countless times by the countries that have signed it?


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3244 times:

Nope, can't find it. Can you?

I did find this though:

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996494


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21470 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3239 times:

N771AN: The United States, per unit of output, is not the world's biggest polluter.

This claim is completely irrelevant. When 4% of the world´s population generate 25% of the world´s pollution and refuse to do anything about it even though it´s obvious they´re just wasting much of what they´re consuming it´s beyond such lame excuses.


N771AN: The treaty is a joke as evidenced by the fact that even your own country can't seem to abide by its obligations.

Being slightly behind target at this time is an entirely different matter than going in the exactly opposite direction.  Insane

This shortsighted failure to prepare for the future is already hurting the US economy, and it can only get worse from here if the direction is not changed.

We´re well on our way, are one of the biggest exporters of technology for sustainable energy and will only extend our lead if there´s no substantial change.

Some people are hoping with increasing desperation that they can simply sit this one out, but the chances that that can work are slim to nonexistent - with a still decreasing trend...  Nuts


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17511 posts, RR: 45
Reply 14, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3236 times:

"No matter what the bushies say or think, with Russia's endorsement, Kyoto now becomes the law for the countries who signed it. "

Thankfully we have not signed it. If you want to spent billions of dollars for benefits that number in the tens, maybe even hundreds, of dollars, be my guest. Personally I do not care to waste money but Kyoto-supporters and anti-outsourcing Luddites seem intent on wasting it for me.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineN771AN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3237 times:

It was in their magazine.

I'd gladfully support a treaty that would require members to cut emissions by 5-6% per capita per year (or per output) leaving the specifics to each country. This way, each member could cut their emissions in the most economical and sensible way possible for themselves.


User currently offlineN771AN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3228 times:

This claim is completely irrelevant. When 4% of the world´s population generate 25% of the world´s pollution and refuse to do anything about it even though it´s obvious they´re just wasting much of what they´re consuming it´s beyond such lame excuses.

That 4% of the world's population makes more than 25% of the world's economy and production. I'm not saying that environmental regulation is a bad idea, but this particular treaty is a joke.

Being slightly behind target at this time is an entirely different matter than going in the exactly opposite direction.

That is simply not true. US emissions have been DECREASING.

[Edited 2004-10-22 23:29:29]

User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17511 posts, RR: 45
Reply 17, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3223 times:

"That 4% of the world's population makes more than 25% of the world's economy and production. I'm not saying that environmental regulation is a bad idea, but this particular treaty is a joke."

I believe it's above 30%.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21470 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3215 times:

N771AN: I'm not saying that environmental regulation is a bad idea, but this particular treaty is a joke.

When your only alternative vision is simply doing nothing against what´s shaping up to be the biggest threat to the economy ever, it´s difficult to be impressed by such a claim.

"Why bother when it takes actual effort!?"  Insane


User currently offlineN771AN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3205 times:

Spending money and time on ineffective government policies might be the norm in the EU but it is not acceptable here.

User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17511 posts, RR: 45
Reply 20, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3199 times:

"When your only alternative vision is simply doing nothing against what´s shaping up to be the biggest threat to the economy ever, it´s difficult to be impressed by such a claim.
"

We've effectively "done nothing" for the last century, and we use half as much oil now per unit GDP as we did 20 years ago. The choice is do nothing, or spend a ton of money on Kyoto Protocol, which does nothing. I'm all for the former.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3181 times:

When 4% of the world´s population generate 25% of the world´s pollution

Does it have to be applied with a sledgehammer: YES the USA is the world's largest nation source of pollution of any nation because it also is the world's largest economic engine and source of aggregate production-distribution of high & low tech goods.




The choice is do nothing, or spend a ton of money on Kyoto Protocol,

...not to mention: in return for practically nil.




which does nothing. I'm all for the former.

...couldn't agree more.

[Edited 2004-10-23 00:12:28]

User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3168 times:

A question for Concordeboy and Maverick: should greenhouse gasses be reduced globally?

User currently offlineN771AN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3162 times:

should greenhouse gasses be reduced globally?

Yes... read reply 15. I would even consider adopting a 6-8% rule for developed (whatever that is) and 4-6% rule for developing countries.


User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3160 times:

Oh no!!!!!!!!!!! GASP!!!!!!!!!!! is the U.N. going to make us join the treaty? How will they do that? Talk bad about us?

That is more of a joke then this thread.  Smile


25 MaverickM11 : "A question for Concordeboy and Maverick: should greenhouse gasses be reduced globally?" As long as the benefit equals or outweighs the costs, of cour
26 ConcordeBoy : A question for Concordeboy and Maverick: should greenhouse gasses be reduced globally Sure, though only to a level which doesn't stifle current and fu
27 Post contains images Klaus : I see the shortsightedness that´s troubling much of corporate america is alive and well in the political arena as well. Why am I not surprised? Of co
28 MaverickM11 : "I see the shortsightedness that´s troubling much of corporate america is alive and well in the political arena as well. Why am I not surprised? " Sh
29 Commander_Rabb : Are we still talking Kyoto? As far as the United States of America is concerned, Kyoto is a dead issue. We said NO to Kyoto, now it's up to the rest o
30 Pacificjourney : Oh sorry WRONG ... you signed, you're in ... yes you didn't approve it but enough other signatories did so you ARE LEGALLY BOUND by it's terms ... aga
31 Post contains images Commander_Rabb : ARE LEGALLY BOUND by it's terms hahahahaha So sue us. No to Kyoto, and no to the lawsuit. In otherwords...it ain't ganna happen! : (edited to add a ve
32 L-188 : Learn your civics PacificJourny. The US cannot enter into a treaty unless the senate ratifies it, which it has not. The rest of the world can pound sa
33 Pacificjourney : Well yes, actually that's exactly what would happen. Never heard of the WTO (sorry dumb question, of course you haven't) ?
34 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : you signed, you're in ... yes you didn't approve it but enough other signatories did so you ARE LEGALLY BOUND by it's terms ... I'm curious as to whet
35 L-188 : Yeah, Like the WTO is really going to cut off one of the largest economic engines in the world.
36 ConcordeBoy : ...one of?
37 Post contains images Commander_Rabb : The largest! We know what he meant
38 L-188 : I meant one of the largest. You can't deny China's rapid growth, which BTW won't be limited because they aren't forced to meet as strong as standards
39 Pacificjourney : Hate to break it to you but the US is anserable to the WTO. Recent tax reforms were essentially a reply to changes mandated by WTO rulings on illegal
40 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : because others are constrained and bound by Kyoto rules they will expect it's trading partners (yes including you) to be also refresh us, those "expec
41 Commander_Rabb : Kyoto was not ratified. Thus, NO to Kyoto. What about that is so hard for you? N O t o K y o t o! There, spelled out for ya! A done deal!
42 Pacificjourney : Be in denial if you like but why then was the US so keen for Russia not to approve the treaty. It's coming for you boys, like it or not !
43 Commander_Rabb : OK OK you don't get it! We know already!!!!
44 L.1011 : Pacificjourney, We can sign things all we want. If you happened to actually read the US Constitution, as has been said, we are not legally bound by an
45 N771AN : L.1011... Don't you get it? The French and the Germans will enforce the demands of the treaty!
46 L.1011 : With what? Yeah the Armee de Terre and Bundesheer are really a match for the US Army and the Armee de L'Air and Luftwaffe will really give the USAF a
47 L-188 : Hell France couldn't even enforce UN sanctions on Iraq. What the hell can they do about Kyoto?
48 Post contains links L-188 : And just to put the final nail into Pacificjourney's coffin, ref the US being a signatory, even the BBC article admits the US is not. http://news.bbc.
49 Pacificjourney : So if the US is not bound or affected at all by this treaty then why were they twisting arms for others not to ratify it ? Why would they care ? L.101
50 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Guys, really enjoyed your infantile posts. After you're done jerking-off over your great military maybe you realize one day (will it be earlier than T
51 Mir : With what? Yeah the Armee de Terre and Bundesheer are really a match for the US Army and the Armee de L'Air and Luftwaffe will really give the USAF a
52 L-188 : Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Mercedes US plant in Georgia? And no, I don't want a French Flu Vaccine
53 L410Turbolet : Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Mercedes US plant in Georgia? L-188, please save me from losing the last bit of illusions about you. Don't tell me
54 L-188 : No, but the cars they sell over here are made here.
55 N771AN : Mercedes has a plant in Alabama and BMW has a plant in South Carolina.
56 L410Turbolet : I believe only the big-ass SUV M-class is assembled in the US.
57 Racko : L.1011, we stopped believing we should enforce our to the world by military power 60 years ago. The M-Class, the X3 & X5 and the Z4 are made in the US
58 Vafi88 : Not to sound environmentalist, but it's sad when one of the most advanced countries in the world doesn't understand the impact its industries and manu
59 MaverickM11 : " it's sad when one of the most advanced countries in the world doesn't understand the impact its industries and manufacturing has on the environment.
60 MaverickM11 : "Enforcement will be by means of fair trade, with one side being bound by Kyoto principles they will insist that their trading partners be also." Why
61 Pacificjourney : If you wish to discuss free trade then perhaps another thread wopuld be a better idea than the outright bullshit you are talking now. Please also info
62 L-188 : Oh we understand alright; we understand that the Kyoto protocol will cost trillions that will be spent on the environmental equivalent of sticking our
63 Post contains images Klaus : L-188: And sums up the Kyoto agreement, rather then trying to find was to replace co2 emitting industries where practical/economic, all it does is for
64 N771AN : If you yourself can´t think of any other idea to reduce emissions it´s sad enough; But as it seems your current government can´t think of anything
65 LOT767-300ER : "Meanwhile, the nations cooperating on Kyoto are creating the technologies you will have to import because there won´t be any domestic american suppl
66 Klaus : There is no doubt there will be snags; But anticipating a few bumps in the road is no good reason to go into headless chicken mode and simply do nothi
67 MaverickM11 : " Good luck with continually rising oil prices...! " Those rising oil prices will do more to curb emissions than this piece 'o garbage treaty ever cou
68 N771AN : Those rising oil prices will do more to curb emissions than this piece 'o garbage treaty ever could possibly try to do. Ding ding ding ding ding ding!
69 Klaus : MaverickM11: Those rising oil prices will do more to curb emissions than this piece 'o garbage treaty ever could possibly try to do. European countrie
70 MaverickM11 : "Consequentially, the development of new technologies has significant support and this growing infrastructure is one of the foundations for future exp
71 Post contains images Klaus : MaverickM11: It's easy to support something where you share none of the pain but get all of the benefit. Are you kidding? How does 1.16€/liter (5.57
72 Post contains links Klaus : An american voice: How George Bush lost the sun: Ten years ago, American companies owned 50 percent of the market for solar photovoltaic panels -- the
73 L-188 : Yeah, Solar energy is going to do really well up here. Maybe in the summer, but we have night six months out of the year!
74 MaverickM11 : "Ten years ago, American companies owned 50 percent of the market for solar photovoltaic panels -- the key technology necessary for solar power. Today
75 L-188 : Yup, So how much of that 10 year decline occured between say 1994 and 2000? Besides I would point out that solar is a technology sector, which where p
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