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Gun Control  
User currently offlineAa7E7 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 101 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1451 times:

Hello everyone I was wondering what everyone here at a.net thinks about gun control? Should the United States have it,and does gun control reduce crime?

Thanks


"Brave Brave Brave Sir Robin"
53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40066 posts, RR: 74
Reply 1, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1441 times:

I am against gun control. It's just feel good talk for politicians to pat themselves on the back.
I support the 2nd. Amendment and guns are a fundamental right granted by the Constitution.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineCsavel From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1375 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1428 times:

Well put Superfly.

It's all very nice to try to ban guns but I do believe that if we outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. No matter how good the cops are they can't be everywhere everytime, so people do have a right to defend themselves. I've never felt the need to carry one, even though I'm a lifelong resident of NYC, but it isn't for me to say what other people would do.

Arguments for gun control go like this

1) Americans are so,... tsk.. tsk.
The US is so violent etc, etc, etc, guns are a US pathology.
Maybe, but banning them won't make the US any less violent, so whatever the truth of the observation that Americans are more violent than Europeans, banning guns won't turn Bubbah into law-abiding Lars.

2) Guns kill
Well not to mouth the NRA, but people kill, not guns, and true they kill with guns, the fact that a gun is potentially deadly means that the owner has more responsibility and should be prepared to accept that responsibility, not that the government should not allow responsible gun owners their right.

3) OK, OK, but if there were no guns, the worst violent people would do in the heat of passion is stab a few people or take a baseball bat and knock a few persons heads in. They simply wouldn't have the tools available, when they go postal, to mow down ten or fifteen at a time.

I have to admit, argument 3 really got me thinking, its probably the best of the bunch, but still, I have to say that if we accept argument 3, then we have nanny-state creep, in that we could ban alcohol because some drunken arsehole will drive drunk and slam into a van of kids, the fact that someone somewhere can wreak havoc with something, doesn't mean that that something has to be restricted for everyone everywhere.



I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
User currently offlinePPGMD From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1423 times:

Holy shit, the Red Sox's win the series, and I agree with Superfly. Someone call up and check the temperature in hell.


At worst, you screw up and die.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40066 posts, RR: 74
Reply 4, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1421 times:

PPGMD:
Funny!  Laugh out loud

Another Bostonian will celebrate vitory on Tuesday!  Smokin cool



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1415 times:

Just look at states that have Conceal & Carry laws verses states that do not. In almost every case, the crime rate is lower (adjusting for things such as population sizes) in states with C&C laws than states that impose strict "gun control".

While some claim that C&C would cause a return to the "wild west", this has never happened. When Texas enacted C&C, the crime rate dropped and only a few license holders have ever been convicted of a crime involving their firearm. I can personally attest to the fact that C&C saves lives. A few years ago one of my co-workers and good friend was walking to her house from her truck. A man stepped out of the shadows and grabbed her. After a brief struggle, she managed to get out of his grasp and pull her pistol out of her purse. The guy saw it and ran away. The gun most likely prevented her from being raped and probably saved her life.



"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 6, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1415 times:

I wonder why a country like Switzerland, where almost every household has at least one military assault rifle plus ammo at home, has very low rate of crime? Or countries like Finnland or Sweden, where, due to the huge forests, the number of hunters is very high?
I think it is more a problem of selfdiscipline and culture.
Like Superfly I lean politicaly to the left, but I´m in favour of gun ownership. While at the moment (and for the last 55 years) my country has been ruled democraticaly, with politicians willing to step down after they lost an election, you´ll never know what the future will bring. We have an article in our constitution giving every citizen the right of, if necessary armed, resistance against a tyrannical regime. The only problem is, that as history has shown, in most cases the military and police will side with the government (after all they are paying them and are giving them the toys and power), and how can you resist without having the means to do it? For this reason I´m in favour of letting civilians (if they like it) to own even miltary weapons, while on the other hand cracking down extremely hard on people who abuse this right.

In Europe, weapon control was always a means by the ruling class to control the people. Our gunlaws were originaly made up to protect the ruling class from a revolution or rebellion (mainly through the working class). Today we are sacrificing (not just through gun laws, but also through increasing surveillance) lots of our freedom in the name of "security" against terrorists and criminals. There´ll always be terrorists and criminals, we have to live with it, but better than setting up the infrastructure for a future dictatorship.
Even during Hitler´s and Stalin´s dictatorships, there were still loopholes, but modern technology plus gun laws make the chances of resistance against future dictatorships almost inexistent.

Jan


User currently offlineAir2gxs From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1410 times:

There is gun control in the US, just not at the federal level (unless you count heavy weapons and the such). There is plenty of gun control at state and local levels. Several states have out-right bans on the possession of hand guns and are highly restrictive of rifles/shotguns. Other states are very liberal (conservative in thinking) about firearms.

I feel (like I do about a lot of subjects) that it comes down to personal responsibility. I own firearms for sport, defense, self actualization (target shooting) and as part of a collection (nothing at all fancy). I have no intention of using my firearms for anything but the above listed uses.

The right of gun ownership is like any other right, it comes with responsibilities. Thus who can't deal with the responsibility should be punished by the authorities. Criminals who use guns should be treated to extra provisions to make sure they do not ever get out and menace society again. No parole, no probation. Serve the full sentence.

Parents that allow their children to play with guns and injure themselves or others should be held responsible in criminal court, not civil.

Guns are just like any other tool. There is a proper way to use them and an improper way to use them. I have no problem with states that require a license to carry a firearm. If you wish to carry a firearm, you should be able to prove you can use it responsibly (know the laws) and accurately.


User currently offlineN771AN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1407 times:

I think it is more a problem of selfdiscipline and culture.

I agree 107%. It is the "attitude" that we must change in America not simply banning guns.


User currently offlineJamesag96 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2095 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1407 times:

So wait a minute...the Sox win the Series...a Lunar Eclipse...and I agree with Superfly...all in one week?

What a mind job.



Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1403 times:

I'm not suprised at all. I actually agree with Superfly on many important issues such as music, women and cars.


"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineBH346 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3265 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1392 times:

Although I don't understand the obsession some have with guns, I don't really see excessive control as being effective. It won't stop criminals from using them, they can find some way to get to them sooner or later. I don't see a problem with guns in the hands of responsible owners.


Northwest Airlines - Some People Just Know How to Fly
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 12, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1389 times:

I have to state, that while I would like to do target shooting and collecting life historically significant military guns instead of the demilled ones I own right now, I felt safe enough whereever I´ve been so far and, at least in the current situation ansd forseeable future, I don´t see any reason why I should carry a handgun around. Others might feel less safe and might have the wish to carry one for selfdefense, but for myself I don´t see the need.

Jan

PS:
In any case, if somebody carries a gun in public, or just owns guns, he should have done gun safety and self defense training. IMO a person who doesn´t know how to react in tight situations and doesn´t know how to handle his gun (and that includes hitting what you intend to hit and not hitting something else) is just plain dangerous, to himself and others.
Also, guns don´t belong in children´s hands (maybe supervised target shooting or hunting for teenagers). If not used, they should be locked away in a safe. This will also prevent a burglar from using them against the landlord.

Edit: Added last paragraph

[Edited 2004-10-30 03:17:43]

User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1372 times:

If by "gun control" you mean using-two-hands, then sure  Big thumbs up

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 14, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1365 times:

Maybe the introduction of a gun owner´s licence, similar to a driver´s licence will help, not registering the guns, but the person has to prove that he can safely handle and store guns, similar to a driving licence, obtained after a safety course, just like driving school.

Jan


User currently offlineDl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 15, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1363 times:

Jan...I agree with you that cultures that take self responsibilty seriously are more likely to be safer with firearms. Feel free to let me know the next time you are in the states and I will take you shooting with not only modern firearms but at a place here where you can shoot an excellent collection of historically significant military weapons. Ian

Jetservice and James..You guys are not alone, Superfly sometimes amazes me with the things we can agree on. But dont kid yourselves...he just wants to restart the Black Panthers!  Laugh out loud



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1349 times:

Absolutely...gun control means using BOTH hands!

I wonder if John Kerry knows that...but, I doubt it. He looked really cute and pretty with his pet shotgun, but he's a wolf in sheep's clothing. Truth is, John Kerry has voted for most, if not all, bills in the Senate that would pass worthless, feel-good legislation that does nothing. He pandered to the Sarah Brady crowd by supporting the stupid AWB in '94, even though that bill was based on cosmetic reasons only, banning the the "scary" looking guns. What a pussy.

But, W will win next week, and will continue to defend our rights.

Osama Bin Laden declared today that the security of America is up to the people. That's right...now that we can buy assualt weapons again, bring on those Al Qaeda pussies!


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40066 posts, RR: 74
Reply 17, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1342 times:

DIO21:
But dont kid yourselves...he just wants to restart the Black Panthers!



Damn right!  Laugh out loud





Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineHamfist From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 614 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1338 times:

As long as the village idiots (high school dropouts, room temperature IQ's, etc.) have the right to steer this country with their (usually impressionable) votes, I don't think a redneck with guns is any more damaging!

User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2474 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1332 times:

"now that we can buy assualt weapons again, bring on those Al Qaeda pussies!"

The flip side of this is that Al Queda operatives long in this country that have established themselves as 'respectable' citizens with clean records will likely also be able to pass background checks and not all of them look Arabic, allowing them to buy those same assault weapons. While gun ownership is a constitutional right, there's no logical reason for citizens to own firearms powerful enough to repel police or perhaps, in the wrong hands, take down an airplane. While the assault weapons ban Congress failed to extend wouldn't stop all terrorists in the U.S. from obtaining such weapons, I can't believe it doesn't make it easier for them to get them, even if they have to steal them from legitimate owners. I think the scenario of common citizen using assault rifles to personally combat terrorists is highly unlikely, especially those without a military background. The day Joe Citizen and his pals decide that our government has got to go and organize a revolution to take it down is the only justifiable reason I can see for private individuals to own AK-47s and the lot, otherwise it's just plain crazy. Rifles and shotguns, no problem, but something that could blow up a police car or even ravage a precinct, that's just NUTS!  Nuts


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29832 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1328 times:

While gun ownership is a constitutional right, there's no logical reason for citizens to own firearms powerful enough to repel police or perhaps, in the wrong hands, take down an airplane

Falicy #1:Assualt weapons are more powerful.

Truth. Military calibers are not that powerful to comply with the Geneva conventions. In fact in some states 5.56 Nato is illegal to use as a hunting round on anything bigger then a small deer because the likelyhood to wound, not kill the animal.

The fact is that if I get that .458 Lott that I have been thinking of as a bear gun, I should be able to punch through an engine block.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineDl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1308 times:

l-188 is correct in that, but the statement he made about the rifle rond that would burn through an engine block is probably going to inflame the indignation of th anti-gun crowd and could lead them to utter another fallacy, that the mere possession of a powerful firearm makes people liable to be criminals.

There are a large number of people who are irrationally frightened of others who possess firearms, when in fact their fears would be better directed toward the casual attitude certain people have towards drunk driving, drug use, and child supervision around the home.

The odds of your child or loved one being killed by a criminal or in an accident using a firearm are extremely low.....

.. whereas many people have the misconception about how capable they are to drive with "just a few drinks, I'm fine!" and they get on the same road with your family and put you all in serious danger killing more of us than all firearms related deaths every year.....

...it is a virtual certainty that your child will be offered drugs at school or a social function prior to his/her 14th birthday yet many of the same anti-gun people are also "casual" drug users who refuse to recognize the gateway effect of initial drug use and the fact that their purchases are helping to fund the efforts of drug dealers to hook kids at earlier and earlier ages...

...the incidence of children being hrt on trampolines or killed by drowning in swimming pools goes beyond that of children dying in firearms accidents, but the anti-gun people choose to accept this risk, and others.

Where is the outcry against the hypocrisy of the people who cry about guns yet ignore the more dangerous elements of the everyday environment our families face every day.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineAir2gxs From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1304 times:

I'd argue that repeling the police and/or the military was the very reason the 2nd amendment was placed into the Bill of Rights. The framers, especially Jefferson, were very concerned with an overly powerful federal government. The Bill of Rights is all about the rights of the people and the states over the federal governemt.

Now, I'm not one of those militia fools that feels the government is out to get us, but I do feel that Jefferson and some of the authors of the Bill of Rights may have fit in pretty well with them.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16367 posts, RR: 56
Reply 23, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1295 times:

Just look at states that have Conceal & Carry laws verses states that do not. In almost every case, the crime rate is lower (adjusting for things such as population sizes) in states with C&C laws than states that impose strict "gun control".

And yet here in Canada where gun laws are ever tighter than any single US state, gun crime is even lower. Murder by guns drops a whopping 94% when you cross the US border into Canada, simply due to our stricter gun laws.

Canadians have give up a little freedom to own guns for the far more fundamental freedom from fear of being shot. A very worthy trade off.

Guns are for the police and military. Ban them for everyone else.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (10 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1287 times:

Guns are for the police and military. Ban them for everyone else

If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Hope you know how to protect yourself with a butter knife!  Laugh out loud Or should we ban other items that could be used as weapons, too?


25 Safety1 : Here in the UK we pride ourselves on having some of the strictest gun controls in the world, however we still have a problem with illegally obtained f
26 ORDflyer : Maybe the introduction of a gun owner´s licence, similar to a driver´s licence will help We have something like that here in Illinois called an FOID
27 Post contains links Air2gxs : I still think you guys miss the point. Read the US Constitution sometime. The main body of The Constitution in Art. 1, sec 10.3 forbids the states fro
28 Keesje : The US gun ownership is not understood outside the US I will not come up with statistics, the NRA, popular beliefs but IMO it´s outrageous...
29 Air2gxs : Correct, most non-US residents (and some of our residents) don't understand our mentality when it comes to gun ownership. We feel the private ownershi
30 L-188 : The 2nd amendment remains to this day the only one of the original 10 bill of rights that has not been ordered applied to the states by the federal co
31 Yyz717 : yet the 2nd amendment clearly allows the arming of the populaces for the purposes of raising and maintaining a militia. The right to possess a firearm
32 L-188 : Cars and doctors are needed. Guns are not. Sorry but we got along fine before cars, and think of all the enviromental damage they do. Guns are tools,
33 Yyz717 : Guns are tools, nothing more. There are still places in this country and I am pretty sure yours too that people shoot or hook their dinner. Depending
34 L-188 : No it won't Yyz. Pissed off people will just move to other ways to kill, Ever hear of a stabing, running somebody over with a car?
35 Safety1 : L-188 Sounds like you are saying that people in the States are obssessed with killing each other, if not with an assault rifle, then some sort of knif
36 Arniepie : Coming from a country with a widespread gun culture too, I believe that gun control leads to nothing but I also believe that ,same like a driving lice
37 Post contains images L-188 : Safety1. Obsessed? No, but again a rifle is a tool for getting hamburger in it's natural form. Such as EDIT: Or should that be in it's unassembled for
38 Post contains images L-188 : Oh in case anybody was wondering what hot dogs looks like in their natural state. Oh note the rifle is a Springfield M1A, which is based on the M-14 s
39 ORDflyer : Sounds like you are saying that people in the States are obssessed with killing each other, if not with an assault rifle, then some sort of knife/mach
40 Keesje : Children learning to kill beautiful animals Great! Well I´m sure it is a necessary cultural thing, otherwise the Bible would condemn it. If one compa
41 Dc10guy : I support a total bad on the sale, manufacture and distribution of any and all guns/ lethal weapons and ammo in the US. Any gun caught outside a perso
42 L-188 : Children learning to kill beautiful animals Nope, Keesje. What I see is kids learning the importance of providing for their family. Actually this is o
43 L.1011 : As was said before, if you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have guns.
44 Post contains images Jalto27R : Criminals for Gun Control: We don't want to get hurt on the job! Mike
45 N317AS : If it hasn't been said before in this thread; GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET!!!
46 Post contains images MD11Engineer : Keesje, What do you think happens to the pig or the cow in the abbatoir? As long as humans eat meat, somebody will have to kill an animal. And deer an
47 Post contains images L-188 : MD11Engineer, actually we try to shoot as close to the road as we can too so we don't have that far to drag it out either Of course Germany is the onl
48 MD11Engineer : L-188 On the other hand, I´ve heard that often wild animals have a lot of parasites, which in some cases can be nasty to humans as well. Especially w
49 L-188 : True, but you aren't supposed to eat them raw MD11. That is one of the reasons why you cook meat. BTW: I think you are thinking of Trichinosis, which
50 MD11Engineer : Yes, trichinosis was the name, I just didn´t remember the English word. pigs slaughtered here have the meat checked by a veterinarian by law, if it i
51 L-188 : Right, and generally most human hunters don't target the weaker animals, they target the bigger ones. And we call those little bugs Trichinosis too. A
52 MD11Engineer : L-188, In German the desease is called "Trichinosis", but the bug is called a "Trichine" Jan
53 Post contains images L-188 : Same here. Latin is funny that way
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