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Time To Cut-Off Israel?  
User currently offlineBCAInfoSys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1892 times:

Hey guys -

I realize this is a very controversial topic, and I'm not trying to offend anyone or cause any problems. I merely want to hear what you have to say on the issue.

In the past 50-odd years that Israel has existed, it has known nothing but violence. And in their efforts to defend themselves, Israel has violated more UN sanctions/rulings then any other nation on the planet. I can't judge that, since I don't know how I would react if I were facing suicide bombers every day.

So my question is.. the US has supported faithfully for over half a decade, has the time come to cut them off, let them stand on their own 2 feet? I think the US as a whole needs to drastically cut-back on our overseas entanglements and worry about ourselves. Granted, any US president that even suggested abandoning Israel would be impeached on the spot. But if there was ever the collective "stones" to take such an action, do you think it would be a positive or negative thing?

Thanks for your civil responses... lets try to keep this thing balanced and objective, as much as that's possible.

Have a great day!
Steve

[Edited 2004-11-03 00:35:19]

46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9664 posts, RR: 68
Reply 1, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1880 times:
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omg Steve, lol, dude this thread is too hot to handle.

User currently offlineCoTXDFW777AA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 321 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1876 times:

Treat them no different than any other middle eastern country, and see how many friends America will suddenly make.


Texas- it's like a whole different country!
User currently offlineBCAInfoSys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1870 times:

Yeah Royal.. this one is quite hot. But I think it's something that's worth talking about, if we can all be rational, reasonable people.

But I basically agree with what CoTXDFW777AA has to say. Why are we treating Israel with any preferential treatment? Why shouldn't we treat them the same as everyone else?  Confused

Steve


User currently offlineKl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5300 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1862 times:

Let me answer it this way,


1. Israel is a Jewish country, most jews live in America, so i think yes, America should support Israel.

2. America and Israel are the only countries in the world who actively fight terror. We should all support that. I wish I was an American or Israeli.

3. And Israel is the only civilised country in the middle east, the only democratie, so I would say, support that, then the other democraties will come...


KL911


User currently offlinePhxairfan From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 811 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1849 times:

Well if you stop supporting Israel, you then have to also stop supporting the other middle eastern countries. Egypt receives the same or almost as much Military aid as Israel does. Also, Israel is a huge base for high tech companies. So no sane country would withdraw support and risk losing access to new technologies. Unless of course their hatred for Jews is stronger than their desire for a better life. If would be senseless for the U.S to stop supporting Israel, and it will never happen.

User currently offlineBCAInfoSys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1821 times:

Thanks guys.. I really appreciate your civility on the issue.  Smile

Steve


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9664 posts, RR: 68
Reply 7, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1809 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
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Egypt receives the same or almost as much Military aid as Israel does

I can't stand when people speak without checking their facts. It's called Google, use it.

The Christian Science Monitor

Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid. It is already due to get $2.04 billion in military assistance and $720 million in economic aid in fiscal 2003. It has been getting $3 billion a year for years.

Adjusting the official aid to 2001 dollars in purchasing power, Israel has been given $240 billion since 1973, Stauffer reckons. In addition, the US has given Egypt $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion in foreign aid in return for signing peace treaties with Israel.


http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.htm


User currently offlineBCAInfoSys From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1804 times:

Royal -

I don't know about the CSM? What is their reputation for impartiality? Or are they a little biased? I honestly don't know, so I'm asking as to evaluate this new info.

Steve


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9664 posts, RR: 68
Reply 9, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1800 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
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well, when it comes to numbers how can you be biased? Republicans and Democrats count money the same way, so do Jews and Muslims. A number is a number, right?

User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1799 times:

For the record the U.S. did not support Israel faithfully for all 56 years of its existence. More like the past 35.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1795 times:

I second the trying to keep it civil part......

Superfly:
Until you become a U.S. taxpayer, you don't have a pot to piss in on this issue

You constantly bitch about the US giving Israel aid but I NEVER hear a word from you about aid to other countries which account to WAY more than we give to Israel. The mere fact that you don't say a word about the US giving money and praising Pakistan for example, but bitch about selling weapons to Israel tells me that you have some ulterior motive in your hatred.

In the past 50-odd years that Israel has existed, it has known nothing but violence. And in their efforts to defend themselves, Israel has violated more UN sanctions/rulings then any other nation on the planet. I can't judge that, since I don't know how I would react if I were facing suicide bombers every day.

Ask yourself this question. If the US didn't run the UN, how many votes/sanctions/rulings would there be against us? Remember, the world hates us these days.......Israel has been living with this for 56 years.

So my question is.. the US has supported faithfully for over half a decade, has the time come to cut them off, let them stand on their own 2 feet?

Nope. Israel is fighting the same war that we are fighting. Israel is on the front line of the war on Arab terror, just like England was on the front line of the war on Nazi Germany.

I think the US as a whole needs to drastically cut-back on our overseas entanglements and worry about ourselves.

Why not start in a less important region? Basically, I'm wondering why you want to cut Israel off first when the major conflict region in the world is the Middle East.

Granted, any US president that even suggested abandoning Israel would be impeached on the spot.

Perhaps you forget the first President Bush?

But if there was ever the collective "stones" to take such an action, do you think it would be a positive or negative thing?

Negative. Israel's cause is not only a moral one, for there are many moral causes out there. Israel is a major strategic ally of the US and it would be foolish of us to abandon them.

Also, for those who think Israel causes us to be hated/targeted for terrorism, I ask you why Al Qaeda has attacked Spain, and almost attacked France, two countries which aren't exactly friendly towards Israel.

I'd also like to take this time to point out two things:
http://www.cfrterrorism.org/causes/israelsupport.html

About the relationship between the US and Israel:Since President Truman recognized Israel in May 1948, the two countries have had what historians call a “special relationship”—shaped by American admiration for Israeli democracy; Cold War maneuvering; U.S. distaste for Arab aggression and terrorism; long-standing congressional support for Israel; American guilt over turning away Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi Germany; the clout of the pro-Israel lobby; Christian interest in the holy land; and Israel’s value to America as a stable, reliable friend with a formidable military, a legendary intelligence service, and common values.

And about all of those simpleminded people who think the only reason the US supports Israel is because of Jewish voters:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/03/60minutes/main524268.shtml

I suggest reading both sites. I'd love to hear your opinions BCA.


User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2262 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1792 times:

I have to say that I do support a gradual reduce of the US financial aid to Israel. In the long run, the Israeli economy will benefit from it.


2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40066 posts, RR: 74
Reply 13, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1792 times:

A little over a year ago, started a thread about an alternative solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict.
I suggested using the same methods used in Africa, Asia and Latin America to deal with civil wars.
Instead of sending millions of dollars and ammunition, send Holy Bibles instead.
Religious conservatives would like the idea of spreading ‘The Word’, fiscal conservatives would like the idea of saving HUGE amounts of tax dollars and bleeding heart liberals would like the idea that were no longer sending weapons.
Bush could have pulled a masterstroke in doing this.
After all, look at how successful sending Bibles to fighting factions worked in the 1960s.

Not too many members here we able to comprehend but it sure as hell revealed hypocrisy in our international affairs.


By the way, I am not a religious person at all.
I just wanted to point out that the right-wing religious nuts are no better than the terrorist. Fiscal conservatives are hypocrites if they support millions going in to Israel yet want to deny low-income Americans basic services and expose the fact that a ‘true’ liberal would not support our current Israel/Palestine policy.


Personally I feel both side can kill each other to there heart’s content. I just don’t want to pay for it.




Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1791 times:

For the record the U.S. did not support Israel faithfully for all 56 years of its existence. More like the past 35.


Absolutely true. In fact, Nixon was the first President who majorly started arming Israel. Keep in mind that Nixon was a known anti-semite........


User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2262 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1786 times:

send Holy Bibles instead

To Israel ? You must be kiddin' Big grin

Dude, we gave YOU the bible  Smile

[Edited 2004-11-03 01:13:24]


2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40066 posts, RR: 74
Reply 16, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1782 times:

Rjpieces:
That Nixon was anti-everybody!
That damn paranoid bastard!



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinePhxairfan From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 811 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1761 times:

"I can't stand when people speak without checking their facts. It's called Google, use it."

Well instead of being a jackass, you could read what I wrote.

"Egypt receives the same or almost as much Military aid as Israel does."

Receives (current), not received since 1973. For 2004 Egypt will receive 1.3 billion and Israel will get 2.16 billion. I'm sorry that 60% isn't a significant enough figure for you, maybe you should pay some more taxes so we can give Egypt more. Then everything would be fair, and you can be happy. There's no need for you to get all pissy over something so petty.


User currently offlineN771AN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1757 times:

How about we just quit giving money to everyone who doesn't deserve it?

User currently offlineDl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 19, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1738 times:

Stevie, dude, was this something brought up in class, or were you sitting there contemplating world politics while nursing your hangover Sunday morning?

Simple answer...the US must not abandon the Israelis. If peace is to happen there it will take the positive involvement of the US and other nations to facilitate the transition for both sides.

Long answer....The question of what to do about our situation with Israel is daunting. It would be politically impossible to abandon Israel while the Holocaust is still in living memory. We would also be abandoning the only true functioning democracy in the region to almost certain destruction. Their neighbors with whom they have declared peace were brought to the table by us, and the ones with whom they maintain a watchful truce are held at bay by the certain knowledge that we will supply Israel with whatever it needs to protect itself.

The greater question to consider is the moral one. We are obliged to provide the Jews of Israel with a protected home, where they are not subject to organized persecution, which they have suffered in very real terms from the European nations in particular, as well as some of the Islamic nations.

The other side of this is what should happen with the people who left when the UN created this state. They left of their own volition, thinking they would be targeted by both sides of the coming conflict. They have been trouble for every host country since then, and even after the 94 accords they have not been able to control either the terrorists within their ranks nor the corruption at the top of their structure. Some of them continually call for the destruction of Israel and there is little done to stop this by the leadership. Part of the problem is that the young and even middle aged have never known Israel as their home, and have grown up in this atmosphere of destruction and fear. They know little else. How else to answer the question of where do the homicide bombers come from? How is it possible to have so little hope that murder/suicide on a mass scale is the best way to make their point?

If you were an Israeli would you be willing to accept the people who send their children to the martyrs brigades? Would you be interested in having these people who were celebrating the murders of your families and friends in a restaurant as your neighbors?

The only answer to this problem is to democratize the Palestinian government for them to modify their own behaviour as well as the environment in which their children are being raised. The US has called for a Palestinean homeland, but it will not come at the expense of the Israeli state. The history of the region can show either sides story as being the one of the victim, but they now need to look to the future. If they desire peace, they will have to find a way to make room for each other, and we will have to help provide the buffer between the two peoples as they learn to live next to each other.

The Israelis turned the desert into a garden....the Palestineans have the opportunity now to do the same. The only way this will happen is for democracy to win and the US and the rest of the world to help.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineKl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5300 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1725 times:

Superfly,

'''send Holy Bibles instead'''

Do you know that's a book full of bullshit? It's fantasy and nothing else

KL911


User currently offlineDavid b. From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3148 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1709 times:

Juat like the Koran and Torah. All religious books are bullshit.


Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11154 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1709 times:

1. Israel is a Jewish country, most jews live in America, so i think yes, America should support Israel.

There are a lot of Hispanics in America, the largest minority group. Does that mean the US should be pouring billions of American taxpayers money into Mexico?

2. America and Israel are the only countries in the world who actively fight terror. We should all support that. I wish I was an American or Israeli.

Oh please.... Ask yourself what is causing the global terrorism and why the US is such a target these days. It's because of the US' blind support towards Israel.

Do you see terrorists constantly threatening Canada? Of course not, that's because Canada has taken and has always taken a neutral stance with regards to the Middle East. Nobody in the Middle East gets any special treatment from Canada.

3. And Israel is the only civilised country in the middle east, the only democratie, so I would say, support that, then the other democraties will come...

Haha...I hope that's a joke. A civilized country...hmm....a country that arrests protesters protesting against Israeli military aggression in Palestinian lands.

Like the parliament who Sharon ordered to be arrested because he sympathy to the Palestinians in Rafah who had their homes demolished.

Talk about civilized and democratic.  Insane

Well if you stop supporting Israel, you then have to also stop supporting the other middle eastern countries. Egypt receives the same or almost as much Military aid as Israel does.

American taxpayers money should stay home in America and help the country. I am opposed to massive financial aid packages regardless of whether they go to Israel or Egypt.

Egypt and Jordan were bribed. The financial packages were the primary motives to sign peace with Israel. A peace recognized by the Egyptian and Jordanian government, but not the people.

I am not totally against financial aid. I believe financial aid should be given where it is needed. Israel doesn't need the $3 billion it gets every year. It is a wealthy, technologically advanced country.

Egypt is a poor country. I am not exactly sure in what form they are getting the aid, but my guess is it mostly benefits the cronies like Hosni Mubarak and the people around him.

In the case of Jordan, the Hashemite family is the one who is benefiting the most from the financial aid.

As the old saying goes, the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. Corrupt leadership in the Arab world, supported by the US.

The same goes with Saudi Arabia and the Saudi royal family.

Getting back to the issue of aid, there are improverished countries in Africa and Asia who should be getting the $3 billion in forms of economic and financial aid which is currently going to Israel in forms of military aid.

Imagine if many of the impoverished nations of the world got a piece of that $3 billion on a yearly basis? Just imagine...

N771AN said it perfectly.



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineDl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 23, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1688 times:

BA....your assessment of the US as the prime cause of terrorism is pure BS. The countries that refuse to vocally support Israel for fear of targeted by terrorists are encourageing terrorism by giving them what they want.

Civilized nations do not constantly attack their neighbors nor do they lauch rocket attacks on farms. Nor do they send terrorists to attack, directly or by supporting them, their neighbors.

There is vast corruption in the arab world's leadership, and it should be corrected...how do you suppose this should happen without allowing things to fall into fundamentalist Islamic rule, which would present a constant threat to Israel? What is your opinion on the best way to introduce effective and honest democratic leadership?



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1681 times:

BA....your assessment of the US as the prime cause of terrorism is pure BS.

Of course BA ignores that Osama Bin Laden didn't attack the US because of Israel........

The countries that refuse to vocally support Israel for fear of targeted by terrorists are encourageing terrorism by giving them what they want.

Not only that, they are attacked ANYWAY (Spain and France come to mind). This just goes to prove that Muslim extremists will attack regardless of support (or lack of) of Israel.


25 BA : BA....your assessment of the US as the prime cause of terrorism is pure BS. Tell that to the rest of the world which would think otherwise. US foreign
26 AA777 : Negative. Israel's cause is not only a moral one, for there are many moral causes out there. Israel is a major strategic ally of the US and it would b
27 NWDC10 : I'm glad some people aren't in our government. They will just slide this country into a worse shape. If the US cuts itself off of Isreal, say good bye
28 Windshear : I for one hoped that Kerry would win, so there could become a gap between Israel and US, not in terms of hostility, but of thoughtful distance. The Ke
29 Dl021 : ba...the statement that the european countries that do not favor israelhave nothing to fear is a threat in itself..you are saying that if a country ta
30 Windshear : Dl021 I understand, but what kind of signal do you think reelecting Bush is sending to that region? A signal of peace? A signal to end all hostilities
31 LY772 : Israel is the target of terrorism and antisemitism around the world. AA777, you claim that OBL has never attacked Israelis? 20 Israeli's were killed i
32 Windshear : Don't forget the targeted hotel in Kenya or where it was...Also the attempted missile attack on the Arkia B757... LY772 do you really think Israel is
33 Flymia : We need to help the only democracy in the Middle East.
34 Windshear : Yes but I think also the US needs to show that there are limits and there are certain codexs to live up to... Stuff Bush as it is has a hard time prom
35 Dl021 : windshear...W is the worst enemy OBL has ever had, including the Russians. He damned well should feel unhappy about this re-election. Bush has done mo
36 TWISTEDWHISPER : Of course BA ignores that Osama Bin Laden didn't attack the US because of Israel........ Have you ever heard a speech from OBL where he didn't mention
37 Rjpieces : On the contrary, If the U.S. abandoned support of Israel, we would gain alot more arab friends than the U.S. currently has. And those Arab friends wou
38 Windshear : Dl021 I know you say what you do with the best intentions, but I think what matters, are the perception of freedom and democracy in SW Asia... Do they
39 Bill142 : The Bush policy of refusing to deal with Arafat sure does wonders for Israel and the region. How do you expect to solve the issues when you refuse to
40 Dl021 : Yes. Those are two of the nations to which I refer. These folks have known nothing but violation, and we have brought them freedom. They are learning
41 AA777 : well then tell me how we are going to not be negatively affected by the situations that exist in places like Israel and Palestine. Did you NOT read my
42 Rjpieces : RJ, If you know SO much about what OBL and what he wants or doesnt want, go join him. HA, that's what you have resorted to? Pathetic. If you DONT thin
43 Rjpieces : Oh, and AA777, if you are so convinced that I wish all Arabs death, I'd be more than happy to meet up with you and go spotting or something.
44 FDXmech : >>>Time To Cut-Off Israel?
45 Post contains images LY7E7 : You mean......circumcise them? What ? again? Nooooooooooooo :D
46 AirxLiban : KL911, how ignorant can you be...you are out of your mind to think that Israel is the only civilised and only democratic country in the Middle East. I
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