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To Our Dutch Members  
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2237 times:

How bad are things in Holland now? It seems that you are reaching the boiling point with your Muslim guests.

The division was stark: The Dutch had the world's most tolerant, open-minded society, with full sexual equality and same-sex marriage, as well as liberal policies on soft drugs and prostitution; but a large segment of the fast-growing Muslim population kept that society at arm's length, despising its freedoms.

Instead of addressing this issue, Dutch officials (like their counterparts across the continent) churned out rhetoric about multicultural diversity and mutual respect. By tolerating Muslim intolerance of Western society, was the Netherlands setting itself on a path toward cataclysmic social confrontation? When I tried to broach the topic, Dutch acquaintances made clear it was off limits.

This reticence still applied in February 2002, when Mr. Fortuyn argued that radical Islam was capable of destroying and depleting his country.

His comments got him expelled from his party. Though many in the country shared his views, those views remained anathema to the political and media establishment. No more.

After the murder of Mr. van Gogh, whose accused killer belonged to a radical Muslim network, Dutch newspapers were filled with long articles that sounded like Mr. Fortuyn. Jihad has reached the Netherlands, one commentator wrote. Another asked: Has the Netherlands become a country in which you can no longer say what you want, or does the taboo apply only to Islam? (This is a nation, after all, to which people fled centuries ago to speak and write freely.)


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/14/weekinreview/14bawe.html

I think it is time for the Dutch government to deport these people. If they do not want to be a part of your society, then it is time for them to go!



50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2227 times:

I read a similiar article and was about to post it:
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=2004111318470002621094&dt=20041113184700&w=RTR&coview=


Sad really............

I think it is time for the Dutch government to deport these people. If they do not want to be a part of your society, then it is time for them to go!

I agree 100%. And replace "Dutch" with "American" or "French" and I agree even more.


User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5015 posts, RR: 44
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2213 times:

I think it is time for the Dutch government to deport these people.

Define 'these people' please.


User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2205 times:

I think it is time for the Dutch government to deport these people. If they do not want to be a part of your society, then it is time for them to go!

Most of "these people" are Dutch as well, you know. And American or French.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2201 times:

No, the point is, they are not "Dutch"! They may carry a dutch passport, but that is about all.

They are not part of Dutch society, they segregate themselves, and have
"kept that society at arm's length, despising its freedoms."




User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5015 posts, RR: 44
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2191 times:

I repeat: please DEFINE 'these people'.

User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7943 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2187 times:

And where do you plan to deport people to if they carry a Dutch passport? What good are passports for? Maybe to define a nationality?
Those attacks on Mosques are a shame, btw.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2183 times:

They are not part of Dutch society, they segregate themselves, and have "kept that society at arm's length, despising its freedoms."

So do the KKK and a host of far-right Christian organisations in a lot of other countries. Should they be deported as well?


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2155 times:

Scorpio:

We are talking about islamic radicals! I thought that it was clear in both articles.

NoUFO:

They should be returned to the countries from which they came.


User currently offlinePetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3353 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2143 times:

Most of the people here don't like what's happening right now with the murders and the torching of mosques, churches and islamic elementary schools. You may not hear about it in the US, but most if not all Islamic organizations in the Netherlands have rejected the killings.

One of the main concerns right now is that none of the Imams are actually trained in the Netherlands but hired from abroad. We can not control them. Some of them may well be radical extremists. This is a concern that is, only now, being dealt with by the government. A bit late, but never late then never.

I think it is time for the Dutch government to deport these people.

I'd also like you to define those people. And also please tell me where you want us to send them? Please bare in mind that not many countries are going to accept them. Not even the countries where they/their ancestors came from.


They are not part of Dutch society, they segregate themselves, and have "kept that society at arm's length, despising its freedoms.

Fair enough, let's throw out everyone that segragates himself. But that would of course have to include the strong christians that enver seem to leave the Veluwe (can't blame them, beautiful area)? The gypsies that rarely set foot outside their camps? The Chinese that never seem to leave their restaurants? By your logic they would have to be deported as well?

I already know your response "hey, they have not killed anyone". That's true, but neither have the mayority of muslims that have segregated themselves.


This reticence still applied in February 2002, when Mr. Fortuyn...

Speaking of mr. Fortuyn, he was not killed by a muslim. He may have been a pain in the arse for muslims, but they did not kill him or (as far as I know) threaten to do so.




PS: RJpieces, why are you telling us what to do when you ahve repeatedly told us not to critisize with US policies. Just wondering!  Smile


[Edited 2004-11-14 20:02:06]


Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5015 posts, RR: 44
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2137 times:

We are talking about islamic radicals! I thought that it was clear in both articles.

Seems to me that your interpretation of 'radicals' is quite a broad one. So please tell me what qualifies one to be termed a radical, and what doesn't?

They should be returned to the countries from which they came.

Beautiful! So you're going to return them to... The Netherlands. What is that going to solve exactly?

[Edited 2004-11-14 20:04:04]

User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2489 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2135 times:

Most of "these people" are Dutch as well, you know. And American or French.

not really, its all about muslim terrorist, the country were everything was possible is now ruined, and you know, at maximum the murder gets 20 years.. maximum, a lot of times they only have to be in jail for 12 years.

a lot of people that came to holland came here because you can have youre opinion about everything without being banned, ''killed'' (by the government), and what are they doing now, shooting people wich don't hate muslims but just have theire opinion. they feel like they will go to allah as a brave man. those people wich even have a Fundementalistic thought should be deported, wich are a lot of people, after rechearch its stated that 500.000 people in the netherlands have fundamentalistic toughts.

thrust me "holland'' is going mad and it won't stop here... more churches , schools etc.. will be burned , we should have a better law wich anables to get in holland so easy.... because this is going mad


User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2122 times:

Beautiful! So you're going to return them to... The Netherlands. What is that going to solve exactly?

Priceless!  Smile


User currently offlineTechrep From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2106 times:

Jasepl,

So what exactly should be done sir? Islamists are killing people who have any diffence of opinion to Islam, which is very intolerant. Instead of condemning our words and emotions offer some solutions.


Techrep


User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2093 times:

Techrep, many of these people are fully Dutch. Some were even born there. That's where they come from and that's where they will have to be sent.

Besides, what do your emotions have to do with the Netherlands?


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2081 times:

Jasepl:

Because this is the wave of the future! We will see battle lines between the two accross Europe and America as well.

This is just the begining my freind.


This is incorrect: many of these people are fully Dutch, they are not.

As quoted before "a large segment of the fast-growing Muslim population kept that society at arm's length, despising its freedoms"


User currently offlineTechrep From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2078 times:

Jasepl,

Instead of dancing around the fucking issue answer the question! What should be done do "radical islamists" who threaten or kill people when they make Islam look the slightest bit wrong? Before you answer, this is no an isolated incident in Georgia by the KKK but becoming commonplace on a worldly scale.

Will Muslims hit the streets and attempt to rid their mosques of these individuals? I have never seen such an attempt. So until Muslims clean their houses of radicals Islamists this shit will continue!

TechRep




User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5015 posts, RR: 44
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2079 times:

Instead of condemning our words and emotions offer some solutions.

We are not condemning your 'emotions', we are condemning the simplistic solutions some here are offering. The deportation scenario is quite simply not workable, for the simple reason that the large majority of these, mostly quite young, radicals were born and raised in, in this case, the Netherlands. Quite a few are 3rd generation immigrants already. It's the same as sending Americans of Italian descent back to Italy if they commit a crime, even though they've never been, let alone lived there.

the solution to this problem is not an easy one, despite what some here will have you believe. Just like the current situation is very complicated and was cause by several groups of people, both immigrants and the native population, the solution will have to come from several sides as well, and will not be easy.


User currently offlineTechrep From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2053 times:

This information taken from http://www.islamistwatch.org/main.html I feel these statements sum up what I have witnessed from Islam.

In a bizarre twist that can be traced at least as far back to Sayyeed Abul A'la Maududi's writings in Jihad in Islam, the Islamists claim that anyone is free to accept or reject Islam. But whether you decide to become Muslim or not, you will live under Shariah law, by force if necessary. This allows them to use all means necessary to destroy a non-Muslim's government and society and establish Shariah law in its place--and yet still make the claim that they aren't forcing anyone to become a Muslim.

They believe this current (or coming) war is the ultimate confrontation between the seat of all evil, the western secular democracies (with the arrogant U.S. government leading the charge) and the heart of all good things: Islam as expounded by the Islamists. The texts on IslamistWatch.org were written by the most famous Islamists and they detail the "why" of their religious war; actions by groups like Al-Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, and Al-Fuqra reveal the "how".

It appears that the vast majority of Muslims living in the west are not Islamists, and since the majority of Muslims living in the middle east are not involved in militaristic ventures to spread Islam it must be that they are not Islamists either. This lack of direct involvement of vast numbers of Muslims to wage jihad against the west does vex the Islamists. They are greatly vexed. And they are continuously exhorting their fellow Muslims to take up the sword of jihad. When this doesn't happen, they console themselves in the Quran, which has passages to the effect that those who are the greatest servants of Allah are tiny in number.

Non-Muslims throughout the world should be put on notice that whatever they may think of the arguments for or against Jihad as presented by the works reprinted on IslamistWatch.org, the Islamists themselves believe the arguments are valid, and have taken and are taking appropriate actions. Namely, to kill the infidel wherever and whenever they have reasonable opportunity. Osama bin Laden's November 2002 communiques list the places that will happen.

Many of the texts on this site make clear that the infidel must be offered a chance to convert to Islam before they can be utterly wiped out. The most recent communique by Bin Laden does exactly this: he "invites" the Americans to Islam. Having fulfilled this requirement, he can now concentrate on aquiring the weapons of mass destruction he has said it is his religious duty to acquire, presumably to detonate on American soil.

Techrep



User currently offlinePPGMD From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2054 times:

I do believe that the Dutch government are dealing with the Muslim extremist problem. Didn't they recently bust a rather large network?

The problem with the Dutch is that they are reactive when it comes to problems, not proactive, like they should be. It was a problem with computer crimes during the early 90's, now it's Muslim extremists.

Also many Americans believe that groups that promote violence (including the KKK, and the right wing anti-abortion groups) should be jailed. In fact most Americans think that way, why do you think the KKK has such a small influence any more. They are now watched like a hawk, they so much as litter, and they are arrested in the areas that they demonstrate.



At worst, you screw up and die.
User currently offlinePH-BFA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2035 times:

The problem is that the Dutch politicians don't represent the people anymore. They just sit in the Hague and think about what is best for them. They try to convince us that their policies are the best for us eventually, but in the end it all turns out in to problems. I just name a few: the euro (they promised the euro would not cause any changes in pricelevels, yet in one year prices soared over 50 percent in for example pubs, restaurants), the numerous project that are unable to be profitable (for example the betuwelijn) and most importantly the immigration of foreigners. They will always deny it, but it failed not a little bit, but COMPLETELY. The best thing about it is that the left wing parties never wanted to confess it, always trying to tell us that nothing went wrong with the immigration, until Pim Fortuyn said what he thought about it and those left wing parties like the PvdA finally could not hold their point of view, as they lost big time. I think it is a god gift that people like Geert Wilders still try to make the best of it, keeping a strong position about radical islamists and the problems we are facing with the immigration of the muslim community. These problems are very real and should not be neglected. A fact is that muslims do have a different culture(including values and morales) which interfere with the way we think over here. I think much more attention should be focused on these problems. I am often quite jealous on the way the US deals with terrorism and radicalism. They do know the serious implications of it and act consequently.

PH-BFA

[Edited 2004-11-14 21:45:56]

User currently offlineRobertNL070 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2003, 4532 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2014 times:

The Dutch government is doing its best, albeit belatedly, to round up possible Muslim terrorists. Only last Wednesday there was a siege in Laakkwartier, a deprived district in The Hague not one mile from where I live. One of the two suspects arrested after the siege is languishing in Scheveningen Prison's hopspital recovering from gunshot wounds to the shoulder. His name is Jason W. (in the Netherlands its not done to publish the full surname of a criminal suspect), 19 years old. Born of an American father and Dutch mother.

Dtwclipper, Rjpieces et al,
If proven guilty of plotting terrorist activities, or whatever the charges may be, where shall we deport him to? Do you want him back?

Regards, Robert



Youth is a gift of nature. Age is a work of art.
User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 850 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2008 times:

OMG!!

And this topic is from an YANKEE!!!! Tell me, what is an american, huh???????

US is a humongus melting pot, so dont tell Europeans what to do!

Jeeezuz  Insane

Michael/SE



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineTechrep From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1988 times:

OMG!!

And this topic is from an YANKEE!!!! Tell me, what is an american, huh???????

US is a humongus melting pot, so dont tell Europeans what to do!

Jeeezuz

Michael/SE


Typical! Another liberal, Euro-pacifist who believes if you ignore a problem long enough it will somehow dematerialize.

TechRep


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1982 times:

RobertNL070:

Jason W. is not the problem. The root of the issue is the extremists who are training them. As with our own Johnny Jihad, you should lock him up and through away the key. My fear is, that our Johnny will get off, write a book and get his own TV talk show!

Solnabo:

This is no longer a Euro or American issue, and I did not intend it to be so. This is an issue that all of "western" civilization is facing. I never said that the US was a "humongus melting pot."

However, here in Detroit we have the largest Arab-American population in the US, and also outside the of the Middle east.

99 percent of them are living the american dream, working, sending their kids to university, buying homes, etc., but it is that 1% that is causing the rest of the world the most grief.






25 Solnabo : We´re having our problem, belive me, but nothing will be solved by kicking out muslims from Sweden! I hope u get that trough you´re head, McLard! Mi
26 Techrep : Your very irreverent reply wouldn’t be so annoying if you could actually contribute in some way to some answers. The typical 10-words-or- less “A.
27 Dtwclipper : Solnabo; Could you please reply without being insulting and crude, and maybe add to the discussion. dtwclipper
28 Boeing4ever : I hope u get that trough you´re head, McLard! You need to grow up son. You're in A.net's Non-Av forum...you're playing with the big boys now. Come up
29 Solnabo : U tell me WHY I should give you long answers when U already made up you´re mind about muslims in Nederland? This topic is some kind of neo-nazism in
30 Boeing4ever : U tell me WHY I should give you long answers when U already made up you´re mind about muslims in Nederland? This topic is some kind of neo-nazism in
31 Dtwclipper : Solnabo, Lay off the Aquavit! "This topic is some kind of neo-nazism in my book, thats for sure" We are talking about a very real problem in Holland a
32 Scorpio : Solnabo, PLEASE be quiet. PLEASE.
33 BREmer : --> They are not part of Dutch society, they segregate themselves, and have "kept that society at arm's length, despising its freedoms.
34 Jasepl : Instead of dancing around the fucking issue answer the question! Ah yes! Such politeness! I really do want to bend over backwards for you now! Did you
35 CPH-R : I suppose the Dutch will also send those people home who burnt off a Muslim school, a muslim mosque etc.
36 Jaysit : What we have in Holland with these fanatical Muslims is a subculture that does not believe in the separation of religion and civil law. We have people
37 Iakobos : My two and a half cents, Western European countries welcomed Italians, Spanish, Greeks, Poles, etc... in the 50's and 60's. We needed hands for our co
38 Luxair : I live in The Hague for quiet a while now and seeing what happened last few weeks doesn't make me realy nervous because I know that it is only a handf
39 AMS : The Dutch police and Government have been always very open and tolerant towards many issues. Now unfortunately these insitutions cannot be tolerant an
40 Iakobos : We are now hosting the original immigrants from the 60-70's of which a majority have retired and benefit from a state pension, their extended families
41 Yazoo : I would like to ask one question to the folks who believe that those dutch-muslim Extremists should be deported: Should have the US deported Al Capone
42 Dtwclipper : Yazoo, "Should have the US deported Al Capone and all the italian-american Mob members that were doing some serious rampage in the first half of the l
43 Yazoo : Dtwclipper, I understand that, but that's not the point, I just dont understand how some people claim that they should be deported. sounds very lovely
44 Mdsh00 : but deported to where? the countries where they have their roots wont accept them because most of them are born-dutch citizens ( some are even 2nd or
45 Yazoo : I agree with you on that. 25 years in jail can be a long time, but definetly not in Dutch jails, I mean, Cable TV, Internet, Sex Cells, etc etc... ???
46 Ltbewr : There are a number of day to day issue as to Islamic believers in Europe helping to trigger violent reactions. For example: the acceptance of nudity a
47 Bahadir : Dutch are busy protecting international terrorists, like the leader of women recruitment for PKK. Another killer of a turkish mogul is being protected
48 L410Turbolet : Europeans may need to recognize the need of changes in what is good in the long run in society and reconsider their liberal attitudes toward public nu
49 767Lover : You mean like facing the intolerance and radicalism of Islam by returning to Christian bigotry??? Fighting fire with fire? Um... no thanks. Your presi
50 Post contains images RobertNL070 : ....reconsider their liberal attitudes toward public nudity, abortion, the sex trades, and so on. Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but which country has
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