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Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?  
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2666 times:

The future of Ukraine is at stake. According to Reuters there were over 100.000 people in Kiev protesting the results of fraudulent presidential elections in Ukraine, fearing repression from the security forces.
The race between the pro-European contender Yushchenko and pro-Russian candidate Viktor Yanukovych, backed both by current president of Ukraine as well as by Putin and his spin doctors, will determine the orientation of Ukraine for many years on. A very clear divide between Ukrainian-speaking western parts of Ukraine, which is more nationalistic and pro-independence and eastrn Russian-speaking regions is more than obvious. A widespread efforts to manipulate the elections by the current government was reported by the EU, OCSE, and US-based election observers. The following two sentences published by the BBC describe the situation: "European and U.S. observers called the polls fraudulent -- and large protests were taking place in Kiev.
However, Russian President Vladimir Putin congratulated Yanukovich on his victory in a presidential election, Interfax news agency reported."


Should the pro-Russian candidate prevail in the end, we might witness an effort to ressurect some sort of a new Soviet Union, consisting of Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and Kazakhstan. It would be only a matter of time before other neighboring countries would feel the heat of Russian expansionism once again.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4033475.stm
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/11/22/ukrainenew/index.html

Ukraine's profile:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/1102303.stm

for those interested in some background info:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4023043.stm

83 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16370 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2655 times:

The Ukraine has been a massive disappointment since they became independent. Long claiming to be a "European" society held down by the Soviets/Russians, they have had 10+ years to become democratic and capitalist. They have failed miserably. The corruption, poverty, lack of rule of law, lack of local initiative and dictatorship is highly disappointing, especially given that their neighbours the Poles, Hungarians, Czechs etc are becoming more and more prosperous and democratic.

The Ukraine is arguably a lost cause and will remain mired in poverty and corruption for generations to come. Time for the West to turn its back on the Ukraine and ignore it. It's just another 3rd world hell hole.






Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineL.1011 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 2209 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2650 times:

Perhaps we need to stop observing elections and start running them. Independence is great, and a government that will help the nation is great, but sometimes the west is needed to elect said government in the first place. As to Yyz, I'd hardly call it third world. Good lord.

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16370 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2642 times:

sometimes the west is needed to elect said government in the first place.

The West cannot step in and run things endlessly for other countries. The desire/willingness for the Ukraine to become democratic and prosperous has to come from within. It's up to the Ukrainians.

As to Yyz, I'd hardly call it third world. Good lord.

The poverty in major Ukrainian cities and all rural areas is pronounced. All civil institutions are crumbling and there is little investment or business activity due to continued corruption and a profound lack of business intuition. Since the fall of the Soviet empire, there is no "2nd world" anyway. The Ukraine is certainly not a 1st world or Western nation.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2637 times:

Yyz,
sure they wasted a lot of time and missed many opportunities. However, you are forgetting that the starting conditions were completely different from those in i.e. Hungary or over here. They were fuc*ed by the communists and colonized by the Russians for 73 years. SEVENTY years, that's three generations living in misery of tyranny, gulags.
We had communists for 41 years and it's damn hard to get over it. You may not see much difference between 41 and 73 but believe me, it's crucial. When things changed 15 years ago over here in (then)Czechoslovakia, you still had the generation 60 year olds and older, who remembered the "good 'ol times" of standard democracy and prosperity between the world wars and quite a few who remembered the Austria-Hungary times, which despite all negatives set the foundation for the post-WW1 era.
And it is important to have the living memory of how things used to be and how the society worked "back then"
After seventy years, you have no one. Only few, who remember the tsar. There's really nothing to take up to. So no wonder things go slower, because you have a generational divide and huge portion of population "lost". Anyone above 50 is a "dog who (most likely) will not learn the new tricks".


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16370 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2645 times:

They were fuc*ed by the communists and colonized by the Russians for 73 years. SEVENTY years, that's three generations living in misery of tyranny, gulags.

True, but I read somewhere that the Ukraine is the LARGEST nation in over 200 years to be completely ruled by another. WHy were the Ukrainians so weak and not able to break the Russian/Soviet control? 50M Ukrainians could not stand up to Russia while another neighbour Finland wth only 5M people were always able to resist Russian domination. Why are the Ukrainians (as a nation or society) so incapable historically of being strong and independent? Why?

We had communists for 41 years and it's damn hard to get over it. You may not see much difference between 41 and 73 but believe me, it's crucial. When things changed 15 years ago over here in (then)Czechoslovakia, you still had the generation 60 year olds and older,

I see your point L410. Im not sure I agree 100% with it, but it is at least partially plausible.







Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2619 times:

The desire/willingness for the Ukraine to become democratic and prosperous has to come from within. It's up to the Ukrainians.

Agreed. Those tens of thousands in the streets just in Kiev prove that.
On the other hand L.1011 has a good point. You have the pro-government dude backed by Putin on one hand. And you can bet your ass his "support" does not stop at taking pictures together or sending his chief spin doctor to help Yanukovych. Think more in terms of secret services messing with the elections, and that sort of stuff.
And on the other hand you have the opposition leader, who enjoys support of the EU, the US, NATO, etc. The problem it's most likely only moral and verbal kind of support.

Have a little read on how the first post-WW2 elections in Italy would have ended up, if the Italians were left "on their own".


Why are the Ukrainians (as a nation or society) so incapable historically of being strong and independent? Why?

Because they share a great deal of common history and common roots way back to 9th century, when their first state called (significantly) Kiev's Russia was formed.


User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6545 posts, RR: 54
Reply 7, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

A colleague of mine is a descendant of a family which was ethnically cleaned out of Ukraine in the 30'es. Her fellow family members now live widespread in Poland, Denmark, UK, USA, Australia and elsewhere.

Last year they made a family reunion in Ukraine and organized to meet descendants of not expelled family members, former neighbors etc.

You may think that you just land in Kiev, rent a car and tour around like a tourist. Not so.

But they didn't experience many problems, because the local Ukrainians had organized to pay the mafia to protect the guests against the police.

I thought that I was hearing things, that she wanted to tell that police was paid for protection against mafia.

But I was not hearing things. The explanation was that in Ukraine the mafia and the police are for all practical things the same thing. They only have different bank account numbers.

In a country like this it is difficult to imagine a way forward in the near future.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineShamrock104 From Ireland, joined Sep 2000, 524 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2599 times:


For someone who lived in Ukraine for a while, it's really exciting while at the same time dissapointing to see the protests. I think previous post have missed the point. What you have discussed is in the past. The opportunity is now in the hands of the Ukrainian population to change. So, we should support and encourage them, not criticise them. Really, I'm hoping that the protests will remain peacefull, however I have my doubts. Now is a strategic opportunity for Ukraine to re-allign itself and focus on the future, I hope everyone there will realise this and fight for what is true.

Especially I am dissapointed with Russia (although I couldn't expect less from Putin) for accepting the 'declared ukrainian government' result of the election. Of course it is strategic, but it is time for Russia to realise it is a great country, with or without Ukraine.


User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2590 times:

According to Reuters there were over 100.000 people in Kiev protesting

HAHA! Even the opposition say there are about 70,000 less than this, and the police put the figure at 10-15,000.

I'll be waiting some days to read more on this, before passing judgement, because at the moment, the OSCE is alleging fraud based merely upon the media favouritism in the run-up to the election.


User currently offlinePacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2734 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2580 times:

No, they are alledging fraud in a number of ways, media bias being just one. The most damning is the supposed voter turnout of 96% in Yanukovich strong holds in the south east as opposed to the national average of just 78%. Don't let your obvious preferences blind you too much russophile.

BTW Yyz717 please tell us how many times and where you have been in Ukraine that you are such an expert.



" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2575 times:

Pacificjourney, that is correct, in regards to the 96%. This does need to be investigated. But on the flip-side, have you read in any of the American or European media, allegations by Yanukovich supporters, that there was fraud in western Ukraine, in that Yushchenko supporters were voting twice using false passports and identity papers.

Don't anyone be a fool and think that any fraud perpetrated was done by one side, and one side only. Both sides seem to be guilty of said fraud, except the extent of degree of fraud will take some days to filter out.

As for my own preferences, I would much rather see Yanukovich in power. You need only look at what Ukraine was turned into when Yushchenko was prime minister -- people think Russia under Yeltsin was bad? Ukraine was worse, and has only turned around under Yanukovich.

Also, people, don't put everything on Russia -- Russia this, and Russia that, because frankly, the US and Europe are as much a part of this as Russia is.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16370 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2569 times:

BTW Yyz717 please tell us how many times and where you have been in Ukraine that you are such an expert.

I've never been to the Ukraine and see no tourist (and certainly no business) reason to do so. I am simply widely read.

As a non-Ukrainian, I call it as I see it in a non-biased way: a corrupt, declining, relatively impoverished corner of the Soviet empire likely destined to muddle along for generations to come. There is no evidence to the contrary.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinePacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2734 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2563 times:

You are out of your mind. Yanukovich is the worst kind of goon imaginable. He was convicted of rape for god's sake, it always reads 'assault' now but it was rape. Plus the 2 other charges he bribed his way out of. Wonder how that record was changed ?

Do you really want the continuation of the current state in Ukraine. The presidents son-in-law openly buys the biggest steel company at a discount, harassment of opposition parties ..... do you really think the status quo is best ?

Your not stupid enough to really believe that the opposition was able to stuff ballots and throw it's weight around like the government has in this election are you ? If you don't want Russia blamed then have them stay the fuck out of other peoples affairs !

I used to think you had an open mind about these things but in this thread you sound like some kind of propagandists, absolutely blind to anything that doesn't fit your story.



" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
User currently offlinePacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2734 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2554 times:

Yyz717 I assure you that Ukraine is a fantastic place to visit as a tourist (though you might actually have to deal with poor people), business oppurtunites are great (if challenging) and people don't live in poverty.

People are poor, corruption is awful and it's government is the worst that a 'democracy' could throw up but your plan to just give up ignores the very real improvements Ukraine has made and the clear potential it has to do better.

I wonder if our defintions of 'widely read' are a bit different ... Time magazine once a week really doesn't cut it you know.



" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16370 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2546 times:

Yanukovich is the worst kind of goon imaginable. He was convicted of rape for god's sake, it always reads 'assault' now but it was rape.

Ukrainians voted en masse for a convicted rapist? This speaks volumes, unfortunately.

Your plan to just give up ignores the very real improvements Ukraine has made

The Ukraine has not made ANY improvements. It has slid backwards in every socio-economic category since independence from Russia.

I wonder if our defintions of 'widely read' are a bit different ... Time magazine once a week really doesn't cut it you know.

I'm far more widely read than that, and likely you. I challenge you to find ANY contrary stats to my conclusions about the Ukraine.

The Ukraine has been a failure to date as an independent nation. The corrupt election of a convicted rapist this past week will just hasten the free fall.






Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinePacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2734 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2538 times:

"The Ukraine has not made ANY improvements."

Let's hear how well informed someone who would make such a blanket statement really is. It is you that claimed great knowledge now let's hear it. I've only spent a lot of time in Ukraine, have business interests in Ukraine, actually know and speak to Ukrainians ... what would I know.

Surely success or not can only be measured against like examples. Shall we compare Ukraine to Belarus, Moldova, Armenia or Georgia. Firstly, Ukraine is at peace and a functioning if imperfect democracy. Ukraine successfully rid itself of nuclear weapons and is a stable country. These things are nothing in Ontario I'm sure but in that part of the world it means something.

How about that bastion of free speech Russia. Ukraine has an active free press becoming freer while Russia does not and heads in the opposite direction.

Looking west Ukraine has performed poorly compared to Poland, Slovakia etc but I question if that is a fair comparison. As someone has mentioned above, Ukraine had and still has much further to go than those places.

A well read fellow like you will no doubt have the Economist from 3 weeks ago. It told of average increases in per capita GDP of 8 - 11% since 1995 and compared Ukraine favourably compared to Russia in future economic performance.




" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2531 times:

The Ukraine has been a failure to date as an independent nation. The corrupt election of a convicted rapist this past week will just hasten the free fall.

I guess the Urkraine needs George Bush to come and turn the place into a model of democracy...like Iraq is now...

 Smile


User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2513 times:

You are out of your mind. Yanukovich is the worst kind of goon imaginable. He was convicted of rape for god's sake, it always reads 'assault' now but it was rape. Plus the 2 other charges he bribed his way out of. Wonder how that record was changed ?

Correction here. He was at no stage ever convicted of rape.

When he was 15/16, he was sent to prison for "robbery" -- now under the old Soviet system, this would have covered something as small as stealing a lollipop from a child, all the way up to bank robbery, etc. What extent of robbery, I don't know. He was also later sent to prison for an 'assault' (not sexual). It is my understanding that this also occurred whilst he was a juvenile -- not an adult.

This 'rape' -- he was thought to have been amongst a group of other men who were 'suspected' of raping and bashing a woman. This, of course, never made it to court. Why? Who knows. Might have been because of lack of evidence, or it might have been something more sinister. I, and you, do not know this. So it is best to not to speculate on this one, because innocent or guilty, no-one can say.

Do you really want the continuation of the current state in Ukraine. The presidents son-in-law openly buys the biggest steel company at a discount, harassment of opposition parties ..... do you really think the status quo is best ?

Ukraine under Yanukovich has begun to turn around from the disastrous prime-ministership of Yushchenko. It was often said, and mostly rightly-so, that people in Africa were better off than the average Ukrainian under Yushchenko. And yes, both Yushchenko and Yanukovick have questions which need answering in regards to their political past.

Your not stupid enough to really believe that the opposition was able to stuff ballots and throw it's weight around like the government has in this election are you ?

Are you trying to tell me that the opposition of Lushchenko was not responsible for any fraud? I don't think you are that 'stupid' either right?

If you don't want Russia blamed then have them stay the fuck out of other peoples affairs !

As should Europe and America.

I want what is best for Ukraine. Not what is best for Russian, European or American interests in Ukraine.

I used to think you had an open mind about these things but in this thread you sound like some kind of propagandists, absolutely blind to anything that doesn't fit your story.

Propaganda? Actually, I don't think so. I am probably the only one on this thread who would openly admit that both Yushchenko and Yanukovich camps have some answering to do.

Just because I believe that Ukraine would have a better medium-term future as part of an economic (not political) union with Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan (and also possibly Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan, and to a lesser extent Tajikistan and Turkmenistan), does not mean that I am not able to see what is happening here.

[Edited 2004-11-23 09:39:17]

User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

As always Russophile is dreaming of the big Soviet empire. With Yanukovich in lead of the Ukraine a resurge of the SU is possible but with Yushchenko this dream will have not chance to come true. The Sad thing is Putin has the same dream. I'm curious how deep Russia will be involved in the troubles starting now in the Ukraine.

@Yyz717 What could you wish more than ten-thousands or even hundred-thousands of peaceful protestors for a democratic change. You need a little bit more courage to protest in a country like the Ukraine than you need in a free country in the western world.

WHy were the Ukrainians so weak and not able to break the Russian/Soviet control?
You forget the power of Russia, they were able to fight back Napoleon in the 19th century (yes I know the circumstances) who overrun whole Europe. They fought back the Germans in WWII who had no problems to subjugate France. And BTW even Finland was part of the Russian empire for years.

I am a bit worried about the situation in the Ukraine. It's long known that the country is divided in a western pro European part and a eastern pro Russian part. Some people thought that a partition is very likely. Will this happen now? How possible is an civil war? How will Russia react? How will Europe react? This could become really nasty.

pelican


User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2498 times:

As always Russophile is dreaming of the big Soviet empire.

100% rubbish. There is an inherrent difference between an economic union and a political union. The CIS is a loose political union anyway. What Putin is looking for is a single-economic entity. BIG DIFFERENCE.

With Yanukovich in lead of the Ukraine a resurge of the SU is possible but with Yushchenko this dream will have not chance to come true.

With Yanukovich as president, pigs might grow wings and start to fly -- does not mean it is going to happen.

The Sad thing is Putin has the same dream.

Don't see how you can believe Putin wants the USSR back as a political entity?

I'm curious how deep Russia will be involved in the troubles starting now in the Ukraine.

Let's just say that if the Europeans and Americans piss off the Russians too much by sticking their noses in (equally), Ukraine and 25% of Europe could be having a cold, cold winter this year.  Big grin


User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2496 times:

And furthermore, why isn't anyone making any comments on something I have raised already.....that being serious allegations of election fraud by the Yushchenko camp? Am I to presume it is ok for Yushchenko to participate in fraud, but not Yanukovich?

User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2493 times:

Let's just say that if the Europeans and Americans piss off the Russians too much by sticking their noses in (equally), Ukraine and 25% of Europe could be having a cold, cold winter this year.

Piss off the Russians by not letting them Ukraine become their playground? Threatening to turn-off the oil tap? How about some maneuvres with nukes staged very close to the border? That would be even more typical.
You know Russia desperately needs the oil money so I'm sure comrade "Vladamur" won't be that stupid.


User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2485 times:

Let's just say that if the Europeans and Americans piss off the Russians too much by sticking their noses in (equally), Ukraine and 25% of Europe could be having a cold, cold winter this year.

Do you need more proof?
Ukraine is as much our (European) business as it's Russian business. BTW This would hurt Russia as much as it would hurt us. Although this could mean nothing.

Don't see how you can believe Putin wants the USSR back as a political entity?
I am quite sure he wouldn't call his dream USSR. It's more like a new Russian empire.

And furthermore, why isn't anyone making any comments on something I have raised already.....
Maybe because it's a little bit difficult to manipulate an election if you are in the opposition and the election committee is controlled by the government?

pelican


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (10 years 1 month 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2473 times:

Ukraine and 25% of Europe could be having a cold, cold winter this year.

I believe there was a pipeline Ingolstadt-Kralupy nad Vltavou built in the 1990s, which makes possible, in case of situations like Russophile dreams of, supply of Russian oil to be replaced by one from Northern Sea or the Gulf. It would be more expensive winter, that's for sure.
We've seen that sort of blackmailing pulled by Moscow before....oil being cut-off to Lithuania trying to gain independence. One of things Gorbatschev can't be really proud of (along with the bloodshed in Tbillisi)


25 Russophile : Threatening to turn-off the oil tap? First off my comment was not to be taken seriously. But it isn't oil, but gas. Gas which is carried thru Ukraine
26 Post contains images Pelican : Can only hope that an outcome comes about which is better for the people of Ukraine. But what is better for the people? Does anyone here really believ
27 Post contains images Russophile : But what is better for the people? That is a matter of opinion, not of fact. I don't care what they say, there are enough other observer who noted "ir
28 JGPH1A : Russophile - I think you're onto a Pyrrhic victory with this one. You may be have right on your side, but it won't help. You can argue till you're blu
29 Post contains images Pelican : Why? You and others would have fantasies that the Russians have rent-a-crowds when it is convenient for them....so why not the Ukrainians? Sorry mate,
30 Pelican : JGPH1A As fare as I know there is a Russian-EU border. pelican
31 JGPH1A : I know there is - in Kalininininingrad, and in Lituania, Estonia and Latvia. I meant the rest of the Russian western border.
32 Prebennorholm : Back from mudslinging to the thread topic - Future of Ukraine decided on the streets of Kiev? Russophile says 15,000. A Danish journalist in Kiev just
33 UN_B732 : Yanukovich got like 95% of the prisons vote.. His nickname, "Ham". Which means sleezebag or dishonest. The Kuchma regime has done bordering nothing fo
34 UN_B732 : Oh Yes, Russian Government networks and from what I saw said 6,000 tops..but this was last night, obviously Russian TV might be biased..but it seems p
35 UN_B732 : Speaking of Belarus: They are actually doing very well.. Many less poor and sick people on the streets than Ukraine or Russia, and life there is fairl
36 UN_B732 : And whoever spoke in favor of Yanukovich's charges..cite your sources please. Oh Yes, and if anyone questions my background. I know many Ukrainians, m
37 Post contains images Russophile : You can argue till you're blue in the face that this is a matter for the Ukrainians to sort out for themselves, but you will have trouble convincing a
38 Post contains links Mdsh00 : Well...looks like the US and Canada are rejecting the official results that pronounced Yanukovich the winner. This could get ugly... http://news.bbc.c
39 Post contains links Russophile : As well have the EU. And is anyone really surprised? Of course they are going to reject the results, because the man they backed to the hilt was not a
40 Post contains images OYRJA : One thing wonders me a bit. The western countries get pissed when someone is interfering in ther elections. So why do the western countries interfer w
41 Post contains images Russophile : That doesn't just go for the US and EU, but also to Russia. But in the eyes of the 'western' media, it is only Russia which has meddled. Typical Don't
42 JGPH1A : Re: But personally, I still would prefer to see Yanukovich as the prez. But why ? Because he's a ghastly old Soviet-era throwback ? Because he'll drag
43 Russophile : Why? Because since Yanukovich has been Prime Minister living standards in Ukraine have been rising. Whilst Yushchenko was running the central bank and
44 Russophile : Lech Walesa, who was invited to visit Ukraine to help to diffuse the situation, in what should be a bi-partisan role, has now flamed tensions in Kiev.
45 Pelican : @Russophile Your picture of the world is really black and white. The link you have provided don't state any news. This information is also availabele
46 Post contains images Russophile : Funny you say my view of the world is black and white, then you come up with this: Because we can offer them freedom afte 400 years of Russian oppress
47 Post contains images Klaus : Russophile: the way you Europeans promote your 'freedom'? Yeah, we actually want clean elections. Shocking, I know! And for a change, we´re on the sa
48 Post contains links and images Russophile : This information is also availabele in our 'bad western press'. Please. Show me in the western press, this piece of information. The EU and the US are
49 Jarek : Russophile, I am not recalling European polititians supporting publicly any of the candidates prior to elections. AFAIK only Putin went there twice su
50 Jarek : As for Walesa. He also spoke with both candidate making sure that they will not seek the violent solution of the problem. You are also assuming that b
51 Prebennorholm : Russophile: ...just over 10 years ago the entire social, political and economic system in Ukraine was turned upside down. No, not really. It was in Po
52 Sonic99 : Russophile, please do us all a favor and just quit ranting about what you've shown to represent - a one-sided view of the world according to you. Your
53 UN_B732 : And rather hypocritically, Putin says the West should stay out of this matter to the EU, while his boys most certainly were helping to rig the electio
54 Russophile : I am not recalling European polititians supporting publicly any of the candidates prior to elections. Benita Ferrero-Waldner, the EU External Relation
55 Slawko : I've stayed out of this one because the last few days have been a bit of an overload for me...I dont have much more to add to this thread as both side
56 Yyz717 : to say that the west should turn its back, especially at a time like this is sad to hear from someone like you.. If the election is not respected, the
57 Yyz717 : Perhaps the answer is to split the country in 2. West Ukraine would be the roman catholic agrarian west-leaning country, and East Ukraine the Russian-
58 Post contains links Jarek : Russophile, I found out the original what Walesa said in Kiev. Ca³e ¿ycie walczy³em o takie idea³y jak wy i w koñcu wygraliœmy, chocia¿ sytuacj
59 Russophile : I look at you enthusiasm and believe that you will also win” and I'm sure it will end in your victory. Says the same thing in English. (My quote was
60 Jarek : Russpohile, It’s either my English or you are avoiding reading me properly. Walesa said All (my) life I fought for the ideals the same you (fight) a
61 Post contains links Pelican : Also, Pelican, if you Europeans are only wanting clean elections, can you please tell me why the Europeans have been interfering in internal Ukrainian
62 Slawko : Poland in 1980 was as controlled by Moscow and Ukraine is today. Heavy handed influence over a "puppet regime". Ukraine is NOT the same as the three B
63 L410Turbolet : Russophile: The most significant groups who have told Yushchenko where to go include coal miners and metal workers. Oh yeah, good ol' coal miners and
64 Post contains links and images L410Turbolet : I find this article highly entertaining: http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/26/bush.friday.ap/index.html Bush telling the world about his conc
65 PROSA : The BIG question about Ukraine's election is why in hell is Yushchenko's face rotting away?
66 Slawko : He was poisoned by the government/russians...
67 Yyz717 : Latvia Lithuania and Estonia only came in to the soviet fold after world war 2, they did not see the same mass deportation's that Ukraine did in the 2
68 Pacificjourney : "The problem here is the Ukraine people and their inability to forge a stable nation of their own." I agree totally with Yyz717, the boys a political
69 Post contains images Yyz717 : I agree totally with Yyz717, the boys a political genius. Just get rid of all those bothersome Ukrainians and the problem goes away ! Mature response!
70 Post contains images Russophile : That's only your opinion which you claim that's the reality and not a fact which you can beg by any evidence. It is a fact. If you have been following
71 L410Turbolet : The 'western' media isn't printing reports that allege that Yushchenko is paying a lot of these people US$1.50 per day as a 'standing allowance' for b
72 Post contains images Russophile : You can laugh all you like there Turbolet, because you are only making yourself look like a moron in doing so. Do you understand the Russian language?
73 Avek00 : I support Yuschenko, but only because he's a slightly better bastard than Yanukovich. To be honest, Ukraine loses regardless of which one comes to pow
74 Prebennorholm : Slawko: I will grant you that the three Baltic states have done a much better job of turning themselves around....and have had a lot more support from
75 Slawko : "Now Yushchenko, showing some of his own colours, is again threatening the eastern part of the country, if they try to secede. If this guy is all for
76 BN747 : Russophile is spot on... The media (Ukrainian) reporting smaller numbers of protest = our media barely ever mentioning Bush protest (and always the be
77 Slawko : Update >"Nemaye takoyi syly yaka by nas zlamala." "There is no power than can >break >us." This is just one of the many slogans being repeated thousan
78 Post contains images Russophile : >Still, there is the eastern "autonomous" question, which can be very >dangerous if provoked. Although I believe the people of eastern Ukraine >are re
79 Sonic99 : Gees... never start a discussion with a polemic ... this is what you get.
80 Post contains links L410Turbolet : "Ukrainian opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko's mystery illness was caused by poisoning" http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/click/rss/1.0/-/2/hi/europe/4088345
81 Pacificjourney : Ha ! Typical western biased propaganda trying to smear Russian friendly candidate (insert bogus figures to prove this 'fact' here). Dear sweet Mr. Yan
82 Post contains links and images Russophile : "Ukrainian opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko's mystery illness was caused by poisoning" According to the pro-Yushchenko Ukrainian doctor working in
83 Post contains images Sonic99 : Russo-dude, you should perhaps seek prompt medical attention for your problem...
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