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Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims  
User currently offlineTechrep From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1994 times:

By TONY CZUCZKA, Associated Press Writer

BERLIN - Shop signs in Arabic and Turkish, storefront mosques and women wearing headscarves in the streets are evidence of how new arrivals have found a slice of home in Berlin's heavily immigrant Neukoelln neighborhood.

For years, Germans viewed such neighborhoods as a sign of a tolerant, multicultural society. But the Nov. 2 slaying of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh allegedly by an Islamic radical has raised alarm in next-door Germany, which is home to more than 3 million Muslims.

Fears that growing alienation between immigrants and majority Germans could lead to strife have prompted politicians including Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder to send a message to Muslims immigrants: Learn German, fit in, commit to democratic rules.

In Neukoelln, where 80 percent of elementary school students are not German, some civic leaders say the debate underscores something they have said for some time: Immigrants are not going to conform to mainstream German society over time.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041128/ap_on_re_eu/germany_muslim_minority

I have to say, I agree with this approach the Germans have taken. California took upon a similar initiative with Mexican-Americans and in the long run immigrants will benefit.

TechRep

135 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5632 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1963 times:

I have to say, I agree with this approach the Germans have taken. California took upon a similar initiative with Mexican-Americans and in the long run immigrants will benefit.

I doubt that California's experience with Mexican immigrants, however it may play out, is going to be analagous to Germany's experience with Arab immigrants. Mexico may be considerably poorer than the United States, and speaks a different language, but both countries share the same basic Western culture and values. There is little or no likelihood of a "clash of civilizations" as there is with Germany and the Arabs. It may be that the more secularized Turkish immigrants in Germany may end up more like the Mexican immigrants in California. Time will tell.



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlinePilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2539 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1963 times:

most of the people in Germany that are Muslims, are Turks. To my knowledge, it was not a turk that killed the film director.

Also, if anyone wants to tie in that muslims are bad because of this killing...then welcome to world of massive generalizations....we've had our share in the USA after 9/11, I hope that Europe won't pick up on this trend.

While many people don't like Turks working in Germany and taking jobs so to say, we are a hard working people, although it only takes one idiot to give anyone or thing a bad name...example : the whole world pretty much..

there should be a cap though, because a lot of turks are overwelcoming themselves...it's Germany, the Germans should do what they need to, in order to stay ontop of their own nation...



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1935 times:

The Muslim immigrants themselves should PRO-ACTIVELY be integrating themselves by learning German, fitting in, becoming secular or non-religious, or perhaps even converting to Lutheran or Roman Catholic. It should not be the case that the Chancellor speaks out on this. This shows the failure of Muslim immigration.

The inability of Muslim groups to integrate SHOULD raise the issue of whether Germany should be encouraging Muslim immigration at all. Hopefully Germans will have a frank and democratic discussion on Muslim immigration.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1925 times:

...or perhaps even converting to Lutheran or Roman Catholic

They can do that right after the Germans start attending Church again.



User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1916 times:

They can do that right after the Germans start attending Church again.

Fair enough. Then since Germans are secular, the Muslim immigrants should aim to become secular (non-practising) also.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21407 posts, RR: 54
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1911 times:

Jaysit: They can do that right after the Germans start attending Church again.

Good point.  Big thumbs up
Church attendance is marginal - to put it mildly. And I consider that a good thing.

It´s been a long time ago, by the way, that turks were encouraged to come here; And it was never thought of as immigration, just as a temporary guest status (hence the term Gastarbeiter (guest workers)). And on the basis of that illusion integration was never really made a priority - neither by the state or german society nor by the immigrants themselves.

This situation is not sustainable any more.

On the one hand we need more support for better integration (easier access to language courses being one thing), but on the other hand the muslim communities cannot tolerate hateful anti-western propaganda in their midst. Some more responsibility must be assumed by the communities. There also needs to be a better connection between the immigrant communities and both state and society around them. We can´t have Ghetto-like structures outside of the constitutional order.


User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8502 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1902 times:

The Muslim immigrants themselves should PRO-ACTIVELY be integrating themselves by learning German, fitting in, becoming secular or non-religious, or perhaps even converting to Lutheran or Roman Catholic.

Fair enough. Then since Germans are secular, the Muslim immigrants should aim to become secular (non-practising) also.



Whatever happened to religious freedom? Should I convert to Catholicism just because there aren't very many Baptists in Germany?


User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1899 times:

Whatever happened to religious freedom? Should I convert to Catholicism just because there aren't very many Baptists in Germany?

Seriously...unless you live in a dictatorship. Integration doesn't mean that the immigrant group capitulate any identity that they had previously, but rather an understanding and fusion of both cultures. Both natives and immigrants can learn from each other.



"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1895 times:

Seriously...unless you live in a dictatorship. Integration doesn't mean that the immigrant group capitulate any identity that they had previously, but rather an understanding and fusion of both cultures. Both natives and immigrants can learn from each other.

I disagree. If you move from the wretched 3rd world to a modern rich country like Germany, I think you owe Germany by integrating yourself into German society fully. That means becoming secular. The onus is on the immigrant to learn from Germans, not vice versa.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1887 times:

I think you owe Germany by integrating yourself into German society fully.

I strongly disagree with you there. The one thing I am glad that my parents brought with them from the "wretched 3rd world" Insane that they came from was their culture. I have never been so much more happy than to understand my heritage and take from it what I like. Truth is that there are positives and negatives to both American and Indian culture. I open myself to the positives of Indian culture and American culture, and am happy to see when people of other cultures come to see and experience my culture as well.

The onus is on the immigrant to learn from Germans, not vice versa.
By your logic then, the first European settlers to this continent should have adapted to the Native Americans right? After all, they were here first and the Europeans were the immigrants.



"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1879 times:

It's funny how Klaus thinks that the fact that German church attendance is marginal is a "good thing". It's also hypocritical because I don't think he would ever say the same thing for Muslims...or would you? Please clear that up Klaus.


Proud to be an Assyrian!
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1873 times:

The one thing I am glad that my parents brought with them from the "wretched 3rd world" that they came from was their culture.....Truth is that there are positives and negatives to both American and Indian culture.

True perhaps, but you still fled from your Indian culture for the prosperity and comfort of the wealthy West. Dont you think that obliges you to adopt 100% to US culture? I certainly do.

It would also seem there are far more positives to American culture than Indian culture since millions of Indians are clamouring to emigrate to the US, but no Americans are moving to India. I'm not picking on India. Just stating the obvious.

My mantra is simple -- if you want the prosperity of the West, become a Westerner 100%. Become secular, and learn the local language. Otherwise, return to your country of origin.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1862 times:

MY GOD YYZ717!! Let me guess. You were all for the Crusades also right?

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1857 times:

MY GOD YYZ717!! Let me guess. You were all for the Crusades also right?

Nope.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. That's all I'm saying. Especially when the Romans (or Americans, or Britons, or Swedes) were GENEROUS enough to let you emigrate to their prosperous societies.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1859 times:


So you do not believe that it is a person's civic duty to conform to the laws and mores of the society around you? Are you really that self centered as that, Russophile? You believe that the militancy of the minority should overcome the tolerance of the majority? Me, me, me-generation, aren't you?

Charles


User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1857 times:

Ann Coulter once said that the US should invade the Arab World and convert them all to Christianity.....I disagree with her as I do with you YYZ717. While of course ANY immigrant should adapt and assimiliate into their new culture, it is equally important for them to maintain their identity and to have religious freedom. EVERY American comes from somewhere else and yet we keep part of our old identities. It is what makes America, and any open free country so special.

User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1851 times:

True perhaps, but you still fled from your Indian culture for the prosperity and comfort of the wealthy West. Dont you think that obliges you to adopt 100% to US culture? I certainly do.

First off, I didn't chose to come here as I was born in this country, so of course I have more American culture in me than Indian. Yes, my parents did emigrate (not flee) to this country for a better life, but because they did doesn't mean that they can and should break all bonds with the life they left behind. I'd be willing to bet that you couldn't do the same if you had to. A big part of what makes us into who we are today is the fact that cultures did NOT just conquer one another. History can tell us that even when one group conqured another, a part of the conqureds' culture became a part of theirs...so what is so bad about Westerners learning about the culture of another region? So no, I believe that while it shouldn't be forced, multiculturalism should be at least encouraged.

It would also seem there are far more positives to American culture than Indian culture since millions of Indians are clamouring to emigrate to the US, but no Americans are moving to India. I'm not picking on India. Just stating the obvious.

Well, the first part of your statement is mostly opinion, and my opinion after having experienced both cultures is that there are good and bad things in both which mostly equal each other out. While I agree with you that immigrants should adopt or learn the culture in their new country, to force them to give up their old culture is, in my opinion, not only un-democratic but authoritarian.


About the OP. Germany is taking the right steps to combat this problem, and it should be sucessful as long as the Turkish groups cooperate.



"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1848 times:

EVERY American comes from somewhere else and yet we keep part of our old identities.

The overwhelming majority of Americans are Christians. There is a strong degree of incompatibility with very religious Muslims migrating to a largely Christian but secular society (as witnessed by many Western nations now experiencing problems with their new Muslim minorities).

Hence, I argue that the maintenance of EXTREME Islamic customs and faith by Muslim immigrants is completely incompatible with Western values. Hence, Muslim immigrants owe it to the West to become secular when they immigrate here.

When in Rome............




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineJmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3253 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1844 times:

If the topic read: "Arab Countries Take Steps to Integrate Christians" , would that be any less of a good thing? Take a long hard look folks!


.......
User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5632 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1798 times:

The Muslim immigrants themselves should PRO-ACTIVELY be integrating themselves by learning German, fitting in, becoming secular or non-religious, or perhaps even converting to Lutheran or Roman Catholic.

I would stop somewhat short of asserting that the Muslim immigrants in Germany have to become secular, or convert to Christianity, in order to fit in. Continued practice of Islam is probably okay so long as things aren't taken to an extreme. Of course, it may not be easy determining how far is too far.



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days ago) and read 1780 times:

I disagree. If you move from the wretched 3rd world to a modern rich country like Germany, I think you owe Germany by integrating yourself into German society fully. That means becoming secular. T

Please. You can't possibly believe this.

N


User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8502 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1766 times:

I guess it's time for people like Jaysit to convert to Christianity if they're gonna stay in the US. The overwhelming majority of Americans profess Christianity as their faith. No tolerance for those liberal atheist hedonists in the US, that's what I say.

If Muslims in Germany are advocating death to the infidels (everyone but Muslims), then there's a problem. Otherwise they should have their mosques, prayer rugs, and the rituals that make up the Muslim religion and be free to practice it. After, Islam is one of the three great monotheistic religions.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1759 times:

a. Turkey is hardly a wretched third world country. It may have been when Turks were immigrating in droves in the 70s. Its really quite advanced now.

b. As far as secularism is concerned, Turkey IS constitutionally secular. However, attempts at imposing secularism have not been very successful. Much of Turkey's new Islamic rise is a backlash against secularism.

c. A large number of the Turks who immigrated earlier and their children ARE fully integrated in Germany. Some of the newer immigrants, however, are more Islamicized in an odd radical manner. Also some second and third generation Turks have taken to radical Islam. I see this as a backlash again to modern mores, much in the same way a rise of evangelical fundamentalism in the US is a backlash against modern secular rationalism.

d. Many have criticized Germany for not granting full citizenship rights to its Turkish immigrants. This is incorrect. Germany always granted full citizenship, but demanded that the Turks revoke their Turkish citizenship. Many Turks did not want to. This is their problem, not Germany's problem. I believe that this has now either changed in that Germany allows dual citizenship or that many Turks have been naturalized.

e. The basic tenet of a multi-cultural society is tolerance and acceptance. And this should come from ALL sides. A modern secular rational nation state cannot - and should not - accept forms of religious intolerance by its new immigrants or its established citizenry. Showing up in Munich and then insisting that your daughter can't marry a German or has to wear a burkha or can't attend a co-educational public school is just unacceptable.

Continued practice of Islam is probably okay so long as things aren't taken to an extreme. Of course, it may not be easy determining how far is too far.

I guess you can say that about any religion. We have more to fear from those so-called fire and brimstone "God fearing Christians" here than anyone else.

True perhaps, but you still fled from your Indian culture for the prosperity and comfort of the wealthy West. Dont you think that obliges you to adopt 100% to US culture?

What does 100% adoption of US culture even mean? Which version of US culture? American culture in secular New York is closer to the secular modern experience in Bombay or Hong Kong or Istanbul than it is to Memphis, TN or Greenville, SC or Boise, ID. And why do you assume that this guy, mdsh00, who was born here in the US is any less American than the next guy just because of his ancestry? Judging by his posts, he could teach half of America a lesson or two on what it really means to be American.


User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1748 times:

It seems to me that many people who are discussing the topic have no or little idea what's going on here.
First: The majority of Muslims here aren't Arabs but Turks.
Second:Turkey is a secular country. You may argue whether the Turkish society is secular.
Third: The problem of radical Muslims is very new to our society. The Turks who came to Germany were probably very conservative but they weren't near to fundamentalism. The by far biggest part of Turks aren't fundamentalist. Fundamentalism originates in isolated not integrated hence poor Turkish communities in big German cities.The problem is, because they aren't integrated they are more vulnerable to become fundamentalists.

Just € 0.02

pelican



25 Post contains links PROSA : Continued practice of Islam is probably okay so long as things aren't taken to an extreme. Of course, it may not be easy determining how far is too fa
26 Pelican : Jaysit I have to agree with your post. But: A large number of the Turks who immigrated earlier and their children ARE fully integrated in Germany. Wha
27 Scorpio : YyZ717, When in Rome, do as the Romans do. ...and yet I don't see you living in tipis, hunting buffallo and wearing mocassins... On a serious note, it
28 QR332 : Yyz717, The Muslim immigrants themselves should PRO-ACTIVELY be integrating themselves by learning German, fitting in, becoming secular or non-religio
29 Jaysit : Pelican: It appeared to me - from my travels in Germany over the last 15 years - that the Turkish ghettoes have diminished or have even been transform
30 MD11Engineer : Back in the 60s-70s, when the "Guest workers" were recruited, almost everybody expected them to go home after a few years, actually many from Portugal
31 Pelican : Part of the democracy the West boasts is religious freedom - practice it, don't just preach it QR332 I can assure we have - unlike any Arab country re
32 Avek00 : The notion that a society can remain viable when there is nothing that practically binds its people together is absurd - no great society has lasted l
33 MD11Engineer : Pelican, Concerning your last post, many Turks settled in Berlin, while here in mostly Roman-Catholic Rhineland, most Gastarbeiter were actually Roman
34 Post contains images Solnabo : The european castle is closing its doors for immigration more and more now for good or bad! IMHO, I think it´s good.. Micke//SE
35 Jaysit : Blacks could have been almost fully assimilated by now. They are. Black Americans ARE Americans. Probably more so than anyone else. While the rest of
36 Yyz717 : The inability of Muslim groups to integrate SHOULD raise the issue of whether Germany should be encouraging Muslim immigration at all. Hopefully Germa
37 QR332 : Pelican, QR332 I can assure we have - unlike any Arab country religious freedom. You have misunderstood me. I am referring specifically to Yyz, I resp
38 Marco : Why are SO MANY Western nations having trouble with ONLY their Muslim minorities? It's a valid question It's not just Western countries. Even "Eastern
39 PROSA : Why are SO MANY Western nations having trouble with ONLY their Muslim minorities? It's a valid question It's not just Western countries. Even "Eastern
40 Post contains images Klaus : Marco: It's funny how Klaus thinks that the fact that German church attendance is marginal is a "good thing". I don´t have anything against the more
41 MD-90 : for good or bad! IMHO, I think it�s good.. With a socialist state, yes, it's a good thing. In a libertarian state (such as the US from the 18th t
42 Klaus : MD-90: Somebody's demonstrating his ignorance today. I wish it were false. Unfortunately, experience in almost all societies has proven it to be true.
43 Post contains images Marco : Why is it so hard for you to answer my question with a direct YES or NO? Would you have said the same thing for Muslims? or not? don´t have anything
44 MD-90 : I wish that you didn't type in bold so often to make your point. That doesn't make it an invalid means of expressing yourself, however.
45 Post contains images Andreas : WOW!! A discussion, a real discussion, and not about Bush and Kerry...I want to join immediately Ok, a few points from a German who is pretty close to
46 B747-437B : I never hear of problems with Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists not integrating into Western countries. Then you obviously aren't particularly well informed. C
47 Jaysit : The US Government's biggest mistake was not pursuing a policy of voluntary repatriation after the abolition of slavery. They did. It was called Liberi
48 Post contains images MD11Engineer : Jaysit, But this means a willingness to integrate into the new country. While keeping e.g. their religion, people have to look forward and not always
49 Jaysit : You're right about that Jan. You have these first generation immigrants who want to preserve all their cultural traits, even though most have no place
50 MD11Engineer : Well, I just met my teenage daughter first time after three years in Berlin last week (my first Ex married an American after our divorce and went to C
51 Slider : Frist, Avek00- great post. Right on the money, and it's a point most overlooked. Assimilation is absolutely critical; it doesn't mean "forcing" immigr
52 MD11Engineer : Two weeks ago there was a demonstration of about 25,000 Muslims (mostly Turkish) in Cologne, Germany in support of the constitution, against radicalis
53 Yyz717 : I never hear of problems with Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists not integrating into Western countries. Then you obviously aren't particularly well informed...
54 Jaysit : Well, a rational discussion about immigration has to accept 4 truisms: a. People generally immigrate from poorer to richer nations. Immigration to the
55 Post contains images PROSA : The likes of Prince Charles and Camelia Parker Bowles are not going to immigrate Fortunately for us
56 PROSA : Full assimilation - with a few exceptions - usually takes at least 2 generations. In that respect, certain Asian immigrant groups have assimilated fas
57 Pilotaydin : i have some things to say.... 1. i agree with the german posters on here, although im a turk, i can sadly say that many Europeans see us as "bugs" 2.
58 Post contains images Klaus : Marco: Why is it so hard for you to answer my question with a direct YES or NO? Would you have said the same thing for Muslims? or not? You haven´t u
59 Post contains images Iakobos : Sorry Klaus, but is it of course no or of course yes ?
60 Post contains images Klaus : Iakobos: Sorry Klaus, but is it of course no or of course yes ? I leave that to Marco to figure out.
61 Marco : You haven´t understood my post, then? It's kind of hard and annoying to understand your posts when you put everything in bold. Okay: In bold and very
62 Yyz717 : please, dont tell me it's not secular here. It just so happens that religion is a close part of our culture...so please make sure u know where the dif
63 MD11Engineer : Ok, We have rfreedom of religion guaranteed in Germany. It is everybody´s own business if he or she prays to some god or not. The only thing is that
64 Post contains images Marco : Of course times have changed, you've lost both your identity and culture...well done
65 Andreas : Marco: Did we? Could you elaborate? And just for the record: Have you ever been to Germany?
66 Sayem55 : YYZ717... have you lived most of your life in a cave or you are simply unaware of the facts of life on Earth ? I'd suggest you to read history books t
67 Marco : I've been to Stuttgart and Munich as I have family there. Germany is a beautiful country, but too bad attitudes like "times have changed" are now very
68 Post contains images Andreas : Marco: Ok. But then I don't quite get the final remark: Are we throwing something away to please our Turkish citizens? I don't think so! As a matter o
69 MD11Engineer : As Andreas stated before, the problem of non-integration is also a problem of many Russians. BTW, I´m and most of my countryfellows are glad that chu
70 Pilotaydin : asking people to be secular so they fit into the country they live in is i think a violation of culture and human rights. A government can be SECULAR,
71 Pelican : To me integrated means you speak the language, you pay the taxes and you abide by the work code and ethics.... Yes, this means integration! pelican
72 Gigneil : Perhaps, but when Germany accepts you as an immigrant, don't you think you owe Germany a promise to integrate as quickly and as quietly as possible? I
73 Pilotaydin : pelican: if this is integration, why mix up the whole pot with religion and beliefs and secular talk...i see no point, being religious is not just a g
74 MD11Engineer : I think it is because some people here would like to go back to the medieval principle of "cuyo regio, cuyo religio" (Spelling?) (Everybody has to hav
75 Iakobos : Pilotaydin, IMO you are correct...by the book, but in practice the problem starts when religion itself (or more precisely how it is dispensed) raises
76 L.1011 : As far as I'm concerned, culture and politics are not the same thing. Should Muslims or anyone else who immigrate to the Western World adopt our democ
77 Pelican : pelican: if this is integration, why mix up the whole pot with religion and beliefs and secular talk...i see no point, being religious is not just a g
78 LY7E7 : I can see something paradoxical in trying to adopt the "leitkultur" and keeping the traditional Islamic values. Does that mean that the true integrati
79 Pilotaydin : I think that seeing as Turks are living in germany, it is only respectful that the turks do as the germans wish within reason. After all, this is ever
80 Yyz717 : YYZ717... have you lived most of your life in a cave or you are simply unaware of the facts of life on Earth ? I'd suggest you to read history books t
81 Yyz717 : asking people to be secular so they fit into the country they live in is i think a violation of culture and human rights. and yet, as a Turk, your nat
82 Pilotaydin : denying kurds their rights? wait...u talk about integration, according to your ideals, Kurds should be like turks right? well? then if they are living
83 Post contains links MD-90 : if I compare life today to the Christian Taliban like life in Bavarian villages 50 years ago. Christian Taliban in Bavaria? Somebody's got a problem,
84 MD11Engineer : What has this to do with immigration into Germany?! BTW, 50 years ago in rural Bavaria was the time when the local priest was telling everybody what t
85 Yyz717 : 3. Kurds my friend as Native to NORTHERN IRAQ, not turkey...get your history right.... This is the myth that Turkey & Turks like to spin. Any map of t
86 Pilotaydin : bullshit pal....turks mistreat kurds is an unbacked statement of the year.... you evidently dont know the difference between a PKK member and a regula
87 Post contains images Klaus : Marco: Actually your posts show how hypocitical you are. Then again you're too busy trying to be politically correct you don't even realize it! Hardly
88 Yyz717 : The turkish army looks for kurds that are against the turkish government. Why? What's wrong with opposition to the Turkish government? Once again, Tur
89 MD11Engineer : Klaus, you´ve got a talent for putting things into words! I couldn´t have said it better. This is what we consider a "Wehrhafte Demokratie" a democr
90 Marco : Klaus, no it doesn't exceed my imagination, it's just plain pathetic. 3. Kurds my friend as Native to NORTHERN IRAQ, not turkey...get your history rig
91 Pilotaydin : if ur going to oppose the government, you can do it in a civlized fashion, the PKK is not a civilized group of people... they were offered a seat in p
92 Pilotaydin : 717: what are ur thoughts on the ETA and the spanish take and also the IRA situation, this involves Europe quite closely... and what about yugoslavia
93 Post contains images Klaus : Marco: no it doesn't exceed my imagination, it's just plain pathetic. As long as you seem to be unable to point out actual evidence more consistent wi
94 Klaus : Pilotaydin: how come some of the EU nations didnt solve their problems with their minority groups and got in, but Turkey must solve them before they a
95 Pilotaydin : i agree with you, but to single out turkey and this issue as a way to get into the EU to me feels like a double standard...what will they say to the b
96 Post contains images Klaus : Pilotaydin: i agree with you, but to single out turkey and this issue as a way to get into the EU to me feels like a double standard... If Spain treat
97 MD11Engineer : Germany has it´s own ethnic minority, with their own language. The Sorbs, a people ethnicaly related to the Polish ans Czech, live in the region sout
98 B747-437B : would u allow for a group in canada to get up and want their own country? and lose some of yours? Yes. It's called Quebec.
99 Jaysit : Yes. It's called Quebec. And what a wonderful part of North America it is too. Great food, superb skiing, sexy people, and no draconian rules against
100 Sayem55 : "I find it incredibly ironic that someone from Pakistan would make this comment." ... care to explain how ??? " Here in Canada we have welcomed Muslim
101 Yyz717 : "I find it incredibly ironic that someone from Pakistan would make this comment." ... care to explain how ??? Pakistani's are not known for their tole
102 Sayem55 : "Why not? As poor as Pakistan is, there are millions of sub-Saharan Africans who are worse off. Why not African immigration to Pakistan as a humanitar
103 Post contains images Klaus : Sayem55: BTW Pakistan never treated any religious minority the way Muslims get treated in the West. You mean you never gave them freedom of speech or
104 Yyz717 : BTW Pakistan never treated any religious minority the way Muslims get treated in the West. Muslims in the West are treated to a rich life style and de
105 Iakobos : Pilotaydin, I cannot believe that you would be so uninformed about the Kurdish problem (Kurds in Turkey at least). Yes, they have tv stations but do y
106 Post contains images L.1011 : No. This is where I disagree. Integration to me means full participation in the adopted society. These ethnic enclaves are inherently selfish in my mi
107 Post contains images Yyz717 : My fault Yyz, I meant to say NO. That's what I get for being tired. LOL. I thought so! The way your argument was going.
108 Jaysit : These ethnic enclaves are inherently selfish in my mind -- the people want the high standard of living of the adopted country, but have no desire to p
109 Pilotaydin : Well....let's ask some german posters...do u want people living in germany that aren't german to be exactly like the germans? why and why not? And bef
110 Yyz717 : But they get neither the standard of living nor the power that full participation brings. Many of these ethnic enclaves (with few exceptions) lack the
111 Pilotaydin : how will it weaken the host country if there are little enclaves of people that go to school and work....if it is imposed on these people to go to sch
112 MD11Engineer : Ok, I´m German, I have lived for several years in the district of Berlin mentioned in the original post, for those who know Berlin, I used to live in
113 Yyz717 : how will it weaken the host country if there are little enclaves of people that go to school and work.... Denmark, for instance, has a unique small cu
114 MD11Engineer : The German pension insurance system works on the fact that there is a new generation of workers, who with their contributions, pay the pensions for th
115 PROSA : The German pension insurance system works on the fact that there is a new generation of workers, who with their contributions, pay the pensions for th
116 MD11Engineer : Prosa, This can well be, especially since Latin Americans wouldn´t have too many problems with the Roman languages in Spain, Portugal or Italy. I als
117 Pilotaydin : "3rd world hell-holes" and you're the product of the west world that breeds this kind of attitude...and you want me to live somewhere that produces th
118 Marco : BTW Pakistan never treated any religious minority the way Muslims get treated in the West. If this was so Muslims would be going back. But in fact it'
119 Iakobos : Yyz: They want to completely replicate their country of origin but in the high-PCI environment of their newly adopted country. I think this will not e
120 Klaus : Iakobos: Is it a surprise that the political balance is shifting seriously to the right in W.Eur ? Kind of. Because it doesn´t. Some things must chan
121 MD11Engineer : The problem is that they often live in an idealised, romanticalised version of home. Just think of the Germans in the US with their fake Bavarian Gem
122 Yyz717 : "3rd world hell-holes" and you're the product of the west world that breeds this kind of attitude...and you want me to live somewhere that produces th
123 Iakobos : Klaus: Because it doesn´t (re. right shift) I phrased it wrongly but I stand by the idea. What we see is that in quite a few places (Denmark, Austria
124 Klaus : At least in Germany there´s a broad discussion about immigration and integration policy going on, with concrete political proposals for practical cha
125 MD11Engineer : The moderate left in Germany at least made some effort to introduce legislation which would finaly regulate immgration in a practical way. All you hea
126 Iakobos : Jan, You still have a real far left in Germany ? I do not think that a country by itself can bring even the semblance of the beginning of a solution.
127 MD11Engineer : Iakobos, Especiallly with the Schengen agreement in place, a common opolicy has to be made. For now it looks to me that, e.g. countries like Italy are
128 Sayem55 : "Muslims in the West are treated to a rich life style and democracy." ... and are discriminated in a westerly manner; an example from the home of libe
129 Post contains images Yyz717 : "Muslims in the West are treated to a rich life style and democracy." ... and are discriminated in a westerly manner; an example from the home of libe
130 Klaus : Sayem55: "Muslims in the West are treated to a rich life style and democracy." ... and are discriminated in a westerly manner; an example from the hom
131 Post contains links L410Turbolet : REading the original article Icame across this interesting article, offering perspective from different angle: http://atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FK2
132 Marco : Muslims in the West are treated to a rich life style and democracy." ... and are discriminated in a westerly manner; an example from the home of liber
133 Post contains images B747-437B : migration does not always depend on how they will be received in the migrating country Thats true. Thousands of terrorists "migrate" from Pakistan to
134 Pelican : For now it looks to me that, e.g. countries like Italy are quite open for illegal immigrants, but they don´t care much, because most of them will onl
135 Post contains images Bahadir : More and more Germans are retiring in Antalya these days. And with the new law passed by the Turkish General Assembly , Germans living in Turkei are r
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