Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Why Is It Spelled 'Favourite', 'Shoppe', Etc?  
User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3464 times:

A coupla threads/users on here have jogged the curiosity on one of my little pet peeves...why is it 'favourite' instead of favorite, 'favour' instead of favor, 'shoppe' instead of shop, etc etc.....

What sort of seemingly normal word spellings do ya'll have in your countries that other people would find abnormal?

DeltaGuy

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUTA_flyingHIGH From Tunisia, joined Oct 2001, 6495 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3458 times:

A "u" added (favour) is a trademark of British English.
"Shoppe" is spelled that way to convey an image of antiqueness as it was supposed to be spelt that way in old English (BS).

UTA



Fly to live, live to fly - Air France/KLM Flying Blue Platinum, BMI Diamond Club Gold, Emirates Skywards
User currently offlineJaspike From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2008, 1 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3455 times:

Never seen anyone say 'shoppe' on here..  Laugh out loud

But it should be 'favourite', 'colour' etc... we invented the language  Big grin  Laugh out loud

ya'll
That's abnormal to us lot.. hehe

Tom


User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3446 times:

Another trademark of British English that I always notice is adding an "ae" or "oe" and making the word look awkward. For example:

dyspnea vs. dyspnoea
fetus vs. foetus
anemia vs. anaemia
anasthesia vs. anaesthesia
gonorreha vs. gonorrhoea
edema vs. oedema
esophagus vs. oesophagus

See the trend?

here is a good site: http://www3.telus.net/linguisticsissues/BritishCanadianAmerican.htm


But it should be 'favourite', 'colour' etc... we invented the language  Big grin  Laugh out loud

I think good ol' Webster did American's a service by cleaning up your British English  Big grin. Who pronounces it "co-loor" anyway?  Laugh out loud



"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3444 times:

OK, are you ready for this? A brief and necessarily skimpy lesson in English history and spelling:

Spelling in English wasn't fixed until comparatively recently. Shakespeare used to spell the same word in multiple different ways!

Anglo-Saxon English had been the richest language in Europe for literature (Beowulf, The Anglo-Saxon Chronicles) right up to the Norman invasion. Following that, English went underground and only truly re-emerged as a major language in its own right a couple of hundred years later, beginning with Chaucer. English had always borrowed and cribbed from any and every language around it, growing and developing all the while. Yet, in terms of the major European languages, English was very much regarded a second tier language, behind the Latinate tongues of French, Spanish, and of course, Latin itself.

But precisely because it was a work in progress, spelling had never been fixed. Therefore, you could easily see "shop" spelled as "shoppe". Equally, the Scottish word "kirk" and the English word "church" are actually identical, and are merely spelled differently because the lack of rules meant that people wrote a word as it sounded according to their accent.

The word "people" can be seen as peple, pepule, pepul, pepull, pepulle, pepille, pepil, pepylle, pepyll, peeple, peopel, poepull, poeple, poepul, puple, pupile, pupill, pupyll, pupul, peuple or pople depending on the text you come across! Pronunciation and spelling diverged dramatically as time went on, hence you would see "hath" and "doth" pronounced as "has" and "does" until the nineteenth century when the modern forms would displace the older ones completely, after centuries of operating side by side.

Now, just because spelling became gradually regularised, it doesn't mean it becessarily became simpler! As English grew in both importance and size, the presence of French words imported from the Normans were viewed as giving the nascent hybrid language a degree of style and class by a number of academics. With the stupidity that such people consistently show, some spellings were Latinised, thus "det" had a "b" artificially inserted to give this Anglo-Saxon word a Ltin look! "Doubt" suffered the same fate, and a totally unnecessary "c" was added to "victuals". Of course, the problem with this approach is that as time goes by people tend to pronounce what they see, and you will commonly hear people pronouncing "victuals" phonetically.

Now, it also needs to be pointed out that sometime between the end of the fourteenth and the end of the sixteenth centuries, English went through what is known as "The Great Vowel Shift". As spelling gradually began to become fixed, there was a major difference between written and spoken English. Up to that point, a sentence such as "I name my boat Pete" would have sounded like "Ee nahm mee bought Peht". Problem. As I say, pronunciation gradually came to follow spelling.

American spelling (and pronunciation) is largely down to a gentleman named Noah Webster. The early America was just as (if not more) proud of their native tongue being English than were the English. The concept was very much that English was the people's tongue, and his publications reflect that. "The American Spelling book" is thus one of the most influential books ever published in the English language. One of the techniques was breaking down the polysyllables into their constituent parts. Thus, pronunciation in English diverged between the UK and US, in Britain you have "laBORAt'ry", in the US "LABoraTORY".

Webster wanted to go further, he wanted to teach America to spell. The intention was to make the disparate spellings of words much more logical. Thus, favour, colour lost their "u", "waggon" lost a "g", "plough" became "plow" and so on. Some of these made sense, some were tinkering for tinkerings sake. But as with all such noble and honourable concepts, the problem was that only certain of the changes actually stuck, and thus we were left with multiple versions of the same words, leading to ever greater confusion in the English speaking world.

Just as an aside though, many of the old forms of English were retained in the US. Americans use "I guess" in exactly the same way Chaucer did, "gotten" was retained whereas it was dropped in Britain, "fall" continued in the States, whereas in Britain it was replaced by "Autumn".



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24907 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3421 times:

Damit Banco...thats too long to read  Laugh out loud

Who the hell says shoppe anyway?



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineKEno From Malaysia, joined Feb 2004, 1842 posts, RR: 28
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3398 times:

English is probably the hardest language to spell. How the hell would you know how to spell
Plough ("plaw"), Dough ("dow"), Enough ("eenaff"), Cough ("koff"), Hugh ("heew") etc ???

French might sound strange and difficult to Anglophones, but at least the sound made by any given combination of letters are mostly standard. If you know how these combinations of letters sound like : "-eux", "-ais", "-aim", etc etc, then you can basically read anything. "-ough" in English has God-knows how many possible sound!


User currently offlineLHMark From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 7255 posts, RR: 47
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3396 times:

"We should enact an 'e' tax. Government agents would roam the country looking for stores whose names contained any word that ended in an unnecessary 'e,' such as 'shoppe' or 'olde,' and the owners of these stores would be taxed at a flat rate of $50,000 per year per 'e.' We should also consider an additional $50,000 'ye' tax, so that the owner of a store called 'Ye Olde Shoppe' would have to fork over $150,000 a year. In extreme cases, such as 'Ye Olde Barne Shoppe,' the owner would simply be taken outside and shot."


-- Dave Barry



"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
User currently offlineThowman From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 363 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3389 times:

Branco,

Looks like you've been reading Melvyn Bragg's book "The Adventure of English".

A very interesting read if you interested in English. If anyone is passing through LHR you should find it quite easily in bookstores. If not, see below.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1559707100/qid=1101906878/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/103-1430415-6753453


User currently offlineEGGD From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 12443 posts, RR: 35
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3377 times:

Just a question: Did you actually think we used 'Shoppe' in English? lmao!

User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3365 times:

Looks like you've been reading Melvyn Bragg's book "The Adventure of English".

Amongst many others. But I did look up the various different spellings of "people" from there.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3359 times:

The version I heard was the the colonials wanted to distance themselves from England and intentionally changed the spelling of various words for that reason. The one that bothers me is programme. I think that's how you knuckleheads spell that.


"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineCaptoveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3358 times:

When the name on the sign uses "shoppe" or "olde" instead of "shop" or "old" look for the price to be at least 15% higher than the place with the simple spelling.

User currently offlineBartiniMan From Australia, joined Jul 2001, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3269 times:

Yeah Ill agree that English words have some unnecessary letters in them, and some really odd spelling of words.
Like "knife" for e.g, what is the purpose of the K there. If it is silent then why have it there in the first place, you might aswell shove a "Z" "P" and "F" at the front of the word, hell it'll still sound the same.

BartiniMan


User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3312 posts, RR: 35
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3257 times:

Wot is dis ?

Sorry Banco, but I think your post reflects British self-centered writings, not a the true evolution of the English language.

Languages do not evolve (significantly) on their own, they evolve through confrontation with others, I am sure everyone agrees.
The fields where languages had a chance to meet were diplomacy/foreign politics/royalties & noblesse/courts/trade & commerce/art.
From the late Middle Ages until the beginning of the industrial revolution, Latin and later on French (itself a Latin-based great mixture) have been the main communication means.

An example from your post, you mention "debt" as being the product of "det" to which a "b" coming out of the blue would have be added.
What about: "debt" from the French "débit", itself from the Latin "debitus" (to owe), in which the nearly silent "i" has been omitted ?

Sidenote: surprising how many in the the US confuse "then" with "than" (or "to" with "too")


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3250 times:

No, Iakobos, that isn't so.

The example of det/debt is that the word wasn't from a Latin origin, but the mistake made was thinking that it was, therefore the "b" was added precisely because it was erroneously believed to have derived from something like "debitus".

As for being self-centred in terms of English, that's because English grew out of England, hardly surprising that that is where the prime drivers have been.

I'm a bit puzzled by your point about Latin and French though. I haven't actually said anything different to your own observation, and I fully concur with you saying that French and Latin were the major languages in Europe until comparatively recently. Indeed, it is striking that English didn't actually have a dictionary until the mid-eighteenth century, party because for hundreds of years the English that had grown out of the combination of Anglo-Saxon, Norse and Norman French was regarded as a bastardised, unimportant language.

It took quite a long time for the English to actually begin to take pride in their language (and it was noticeable that the early Americans took an even greater pride) and begin to truly appreciate its richness.

Now, as for saying languages do not evolve on their own, but through confrontation, how much confrontation do you want? Early English (Anglo-Saxon) had to cope with the Norse invasions, absorbing and developing throughout, and then the Norman invasion. It was the subjugation of English under the Normans that was the prime motivator in English becoming the combination of Germanic and Latin roots that it is today.

It is a mistake to view English as a Latin language, because the structure is Germanic, but Norman French had a huge impact on the languages development. As time went on, a greater influx of imported words, directly from Latin (and Greek too) were deliberately introduced, but these words are recent additions, they are not derived from the Roman occupation.

As English then went around the world, it came into contact with a myriad of languages, and promptly stole them.

Modern English is therefore a combination of a vast array of tongues, and I have never, and would never, dispute that. However, the issue in question was that of spelling, and the spelling of words within English is something whereby I stand wholeheartedly behind my post. Other than that, I can't really see what you have a problem with.




She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24907 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3249 times:

English?
Aw of ye are sprouting some right garbage. Perhaps some of ye should hawd yer wheesht and look at what yer writing first before posting aw this tosh
 Big grin



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3312 posts, RR: 35
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3243 times:

Banco,

Since when has English (or a sort of) become the official language in the land of Scots and Picts ?

No, sorry if I was misunderstood, I have no problem, I just pointed out that it is anywhere between tricky and impossible to prove how and why spelling has changed (before our modern era that is), hence the "debt" (and I stand by my logical explanation..from debitus).


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3239 times:

It's not as difficult as you might think you know, at least not in English, for the precise reason that the documented record as the language evolved is quite rich. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicles have no equivalent in any other western European language in terms of their size and scope. We can easily see how things were spelt over 1200 years back. The arrival of the Normans meant that documents were then written in either Norman French or Latin, and again we can see their development. In comparison to say, French and German, old English is incredibly rich in terms of the written record.

Now, going back to debt, I think you may have misunderstood me slightly (and I wasn't actually that clear to be fair because I hadn't expected to go into this level of detail). It isn't about the ultimate origin of the word, it is about how it arrived in English. The word is old (Norman) French in origin and can be seen spelt as "dete" or "det". It probably was Latin prior to that, yes, but the point is that as with most Latinate words it came into English via an intermediary source (like "checkmate" did actually, it came from the French rather than directly from the Arabic) . Now, it was decided (by self-appointed experts no doubt) that the word should be consistent with the Latin, not with the Norman French from which it came, thus the spelling was adjusted.

As for the Scots, the English language spread north with the Normans (Robert the Bruce was a Norman noble, but don't tell the Scots  Big grin ) where it also fused with elements of Gaelic. There's no clear single point at which English can be seen to have taken over; for one thing, at the time English itself was still developing as the mixture of Anglo-Saxon and Norman French in England, but certainly Gaelic began to be pushed to the margins relatively early on during the Norman period of governance.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3312 posts, RR: 35
Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3220 times:

...ought to haue the said debte of the said Earle of Oxon' as aforesayd w{hi}ch he the sayd Earle was and stood indebted...
from a Lady Ruswela complaint of 1598.

The old French variation of the Latin debitus > debitere was débiter (verbe) - la debte (noum)
Looks to me as if the modern French slighty simplifed the writing into la dette (19th C), while the English form remained the original French debt.
There might be different explanations though, but this one seems solidly logic.

Fact is for the last 6 decades or so, the flow is one-way Eastwards.
Great additions (eg. milk-shake, compétiteur, marketing...) from the Anglo-Saxon worlds of commerce, electronics, telecom.

ps: checkmate > check actually comes from the Persian shâh, which gave us also cheque (chèque in Fr), chequer-exchequer (échiquier).


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3205 times:

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this.

Just a cursory look up from google for the etymology of "debt reveals this:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=d&p=2

Now, I hate using google for this kind of thing because internet stuff is often so reliable, but it does show that the ultimate origin is Latin, yes (which I already acknowledged), but the word derives from old French, dete. And the word is written in numerous documents in the post Norman period as "dete" or "det". The word was not "debt" from the start. It just wasn't. You have to go back a hell of a lot further than 1598 for the true origins of modern English.

The date of your quote would have been right around the time that the Latinisation of the spelling certain words took place, so I'm not in the least surprised by that. Multiple spellings were common, and, again as I said earlier, Shakespeare spelled lots of words in different ways.

Now, as for checkmate, you have completely misunderstood my point. Yes, the word is Persian (not Arabic - my error there), but although its derivation is from shah mat "The King is dead" it did not come straight to English, but through the filter of French.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineCsavel From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1362 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3200 times:

I thought Webster's idea for spelling reform was to also foster a distinct "American" identity with its own distinct brand of English.

I also remember that Webster advocated getting rid of the gh in words like night and right (nite, rite).

At any rate, what I find most intereesting is that we have American and British orthography on two different poles but the Canadians and Australians somewhat in the middle, although closer to the British.

If memory serves me, Canadians keep the u in honor and also keep the ae and oe in scientific words, (foetus) but they use ize in words like realize (not realise) and use the American spelling for tire, jail, and curb. I've seen it about fifty-fifty for words like offense and defense (offence, defence). I think Australia is similar to Canada.

I think the idea of having two separate orthographies is silly and counter-productive. Let's compromise, Britain, we'll put the u back in (on my honour) if you learn how to spell jail and tire right.



I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 22, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3197 times:

Actually, on the -ise/ize issue, the Oxford English Dictionary does, and always has, spelt words in what is often deemed the American manner. For some reason, it just hasn't caught on here and we insist on using the -ise suffix.

That's actually just an example of how many "Americanisms" are anything but.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3192 times:

Oh, I meant to mention earlier, Iakobos' comment about Englsh being a solely eastward flow these days is well wide of the mark, although ti does appear to be the popular opinion held. Without question, the US is now the prime English speaking power (linguistically), but the view that English is under attack from Americanisms is far from the case. even the most modern of expressions come from diverse sources, thus "internet" is American, but "world wide web" is British, "Big Bang" (financially) is as well, so is "jumbo jet", "scratchcard"...the list is endless, and the vast British publishing business evens the score somewhat anyway.

This is even before we add in those words from the other English speaking nations, and many words from those that are not.

In any case, I have no problem with it. English has always imported words from all over the place, and whether it come from the US; Holland ("smuggle", "yacht", "cruise"), India ("curry", "bungalow") or anywhere else, it merely adds to the mix.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3312 posts, RR: 35
Reply 24, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3178 times:

Banco,

I meant Eastwards as seen from a continental European, i.e. from GB and USA.

I'll try to find documents from early middle ages...just be extremely patient
 Smile


25 Post contains images ClassicLover : We keep the 'u' in all words, colour, honour and so on. Newspapers will often use the word program, as with computer program, or television program, h
26 Kalakaua : Colonel. What was the story behind that?! I know of the etymology, but what's up w/ the pronunciation?
27 Csavel : To add to this, in New York City we have Centre Street (where the courts and Police are) and the suburban town of Rockville Centre, which for whatever
28 TWISTEDWHISPER : spelling is one thing, pronunciation is an other... The girls at the check in desk at ORD always laugh when I check in to Louisville. I pronounce it [
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"? posted Sat Nov 11 2006 05:13:59 by Singapore_Air
Why Is It Always Termed "chemotherapy"? posted Sun Jun 11 2006 18:48:55 by Duke
Why Is It Called Gas? posted Sun Apr 30 2006 02:12:36 by RichardPrice
Why Is It Cloudy In Dubai? posted Sun Nov 20 2005 13:36:24 by ACAfan
Why Is It The Rains Fault? posted Mon Jan 10 2005 01:46:17 by Matt D
Why Is It That... posted Thu Aug 12 2004 22:15:31 by Aviationfreak
Orlando FL, Why Is It So Great? posted Tue Jul 13 2004 05:22:36 by Flymia
Why Is It That We Speak English...SMILE posted Mon Jan 19 2004 10:56:20 by B747ca
So why is it ok for Terri Schiavo to kill herself? posted Tue Oct 21 2003 17:15:49 by Galaxy5
Licenses For Illegals: Why Is It Good? posted Tue Sep 9 2003 17:00:38 by Matt D