Ual747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 11509 times:
Okay, I'm fairly open about being gay. But there is a part of me that wants the white picket fence family. I want to have a wedding. I want children. I really enjoy the company of a woman. I also find that the gay world can be very shallow, and keeping a true love is VERY hard. I'm just really confused I guess. It's like once you've said you are gay, then that's what you are labeled as for the rest of your life. No woman would want to marry me. Honestly, I'm not sexually attracted to women, though I do find the beautiful in their own right. I guess I'm worried I'm never going to have the pleasure of having children of my own, and having someone there to enjoy the trials, tribulations, and victories, and the sheer joy of seeing yourself in a child. It depresses me because I'm afraid because of my lifestyle, I will be alone for the rest of my life, and will only have my sister's children to spoil, etc. Is there an answer?
Jessman From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1506 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11484 times:
You certainly wouldn't be the first to be in that situation, and some relationships of the sort have been successful. I wish I had my smithsonian magazine handy, but a couple of months ago they had an article about a composer who was known to be gay, but whose wife stayed with him until death did them part.
But you sound like you're idealizing marriage just a bit. A marriage is to another human being, flaws and all. If you choose to have and raise children your children will look to your marriage to their mother as being the foundation upon which they base their own relationships. Could you truly have a relationship that you would want your children to emulate?
Your children will be people too. Would you be prepared to answer the question "do you love mommy?"?
I think it would be hard, but you may very well be able to find someone who really loves you for you; someone willing to accept your proposal. I only ask the questions above so you can be honest with yourself. Do you really want that, and what about your lifestyle are you willing to change to make things work?
My only advice is to be completely honest with anyone with whom you would start a family. They will find out. Don't let it be the hard way.
Jmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3265 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11474 times:
Wow! Thanks for being honest and upfront about that. My main recommedation is to but the book "The Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren. It will put you in touch with your hopes, dreams, desires and how God designed you and His plan for your life. Second, I recommend getting involved in a solid Bible-believing church. In your case, I would say a large Community or Bible church that has ample resources to address your concerns. I know some Christian churches can be a little harsh or judgemental if they find out you are gay, but you'll need to do some homework and I'm confident you'll find a good (probably large) church or two in the metro Oklahoma City area that will meet your needs. Your desires for a family life are perfectly normal. Best of Luck!
Ual747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11462 times:
I don't want to change my being gay. But it's weird with me, and I could into all the psychological aspects of the situation, but I have found I can easily fall in love with women, but I'm attracted to men. Men are much more hard to be loving in return.
And about religion, I don't know where you are from, but in Oklahoma, they would try to cast the gay "demon" out of me, just short of performing an exorcism.
Thecoz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11461 times:
I don't think it's a matter of being gay or not; it's surrounding yourself with the people who will let you acheive what you want.
All you need is the one right person out of many millions.
I found it interesting how you said the gay community can be very shallow. I've never heard that before. I've had gay friends, and they never seemed to let on to such an idea. I'm sure the hetero world can be extremely shallow too.
The US isn't exactly forward-thinking these days, but there are many countries that are. It's a matter of culture. An american may not want to marry per say, but what about someone from Russia, or Canada. I dunno, I'm just throwing out ideas here.
Jmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3265 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11448 times:
And about religion, I don't know where you are from, but in Oklahoma, they would try to cast the gay "demon" out of me, just short of performing an exorcism.
That's what I meant when I said about some Christian churches being harsh and judgemental about it. Nowhere in the bible does it say or imply the need to cast out a gay demon, but I can see some smaller especially rural churches expressing such a doctrine. That is why I suggested a much larger church in Oklahoma City...you'll tend to find people from all kinds of backgrounds and lifestyles seeking God's truth. But, still go with my first suggestion...GET THE BOOK!
ZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7092 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11400 times:
Gay or not, you are still a person and your partner is a person (I presume )
Your children will be people and you can have your white picket fence etc... It is not about being gay or straight, it is about finding the right person to settle down with and start a family with, whether it be a man or a woman.
ConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11396 times:
When my parents forced me to go through with it, I learned so many thing (too bad how to suppress your inner homo under the guise of religions piety wasn't among them ).... programs basically set up to marry gay men to women, and even though a huge percentage of them "regress", they often stay married with the women (who're most often well aware of the situation) regardless, and many report that that suits both sides just fine.
JeepBoy From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 11378 times:
Pardon the length of this posting, but I should mention here that I have researched this topic in excruciating detail, and am writing an article for submission to publish in a major middle-of-the-road American periodical. And this forum is after all the free-fer-all forum where anything goes, presumably including long postings!
I believe in a *uniform right to legal monogamy* for *all* consenting adult couples, including gays. Monogamy is better for society than promiscuity or adultery. Regardless of sexual orientation, legally monogamous couples are more likely to adhere to other social norms of comportment, than couples who don't have access to the legal right to marry (or who choose to "live together" or take up some other vaguely-defined status).
The opponents of gay marriage say that they are protecting marriage, but they have never spelled out, and cannot spell out because it's not possible, exactly *how* it protects marriage to prevent gay people from marrying. All of their arguements use the Clintonian "is," as in "marriage *is* (this and that)," but they don't and can't make causal arguements because there are none to be made. (As Clinton said, it depends on what your definition of IS is.) Their position is almost identical, including all of its rationales, to the position of segregationists who outlawed marriage between people of different races. I thought we'd gotten over that kind of bigotry years ago.
If we really want to protect marriage, we would also uniformly outlaw adultery as a form of criminal fraud. The adulterer defrauds the spouse by secretly acting outside of their legal marriage contract i.e. lying, in a manner that is clearly detrimental to the spouse's interest, and may expose the spouse to direct personal injury and death from STDs including AIDS. Adultery destroys marriages, the proof is in the broken families and divorce statistics. The gay neighbors across the street do not destroy the marriage of the heterosexual couple next door. Enacting segregationist laws does not protect one segregated class from the other; it merely panders to the feel-good righteousness of those who get pleasure out of scapegoating others.
Responding to various:
Marriage as "more of a religious union." (Specop, Marek, Madpaddy)
If society defines marriage as a religious institution and allows the state to define it, then we have just injected the state into religion in a manner that would make the Founding Fathers spin in their graves.
If we agree that marriage is a religious institution, and we don't want to live in a theocracy, then this is what necessarily follows: Governments cannot grant marriage licenses, they can only grant civil unions to both gay and straight couples. The term "marriage" would then be defined as a religious ritual/sacrament, reserved exclusively for use by religious institutions in the manner defined by their respective traditions. Frankly I think this is the best solution overall, because it removes the loaded word from the issue, provides a uniform right to legal monogamy, and respects the wishes of every religion to define marriage according to its own traditions.
Nowhere else in Western society is a set of legal rights and responsibilites defined by a term denoting a religious sacrament. The threshold of legal adulthood is not called "Mitzvah" or "Confirmation," it's called (in the USA at least) "the age of majority." The right to vote does not depend upon achieving God's grace or a state of Enlightenment, or certification of either of these from a religious authority.
When we mix church and state, BOTH suffer.
Re. gay couples adopting children:
There is a huge amount of research on this, and kids who grow up in gay families are **no more or less likely to end up gay** than kids who grow up in heterosexual families. The prevalence of gay/lesbian people in society holds steady at 5 - 10% regardless of social variables; it is basically genetic or congenital, in a manner similar to writing-handedness.
You oppose multiculturalism and predict a decline & fall involving tribalism. You oppose equal rights for gay people and predict a decline & fall involving intolerance. Either you contradict yourself, or you look forward to feudalism, and the latter would make you a barbarian akin to Osama Bin Laden (key symptom of barbarianism: favors stagnation or regression of a society's accumulated knowledge; feudalism would fit the definition of regression followed by stagnation).
Re. your mention of homosexuality in prison: Rapists and their victims do not constitute consenting adult couples, and criminals do not set a standard by which the actions of law-abiding citizens can be judged.
Re. your mention of gay rights being suppressed in Tehran: What else about Western society would you like to replace with Iranian practices? How about stoning to death for the crime of apostasy? Perhaps we should get some clarification here: where are you from? Are you an Iranian cleric arguing for Islamic fundamentalism?
Where you imply that civilization is brittle, in fact you're right: order is always more brittle than chaos. Barbarians have an advantage because they've got entropy on their side. Civilization keeps barbarians at bay by having better weaponry than the barbarians. So far we're winning.
I'm also in favor of anything that reduces population, but the fact is that uniform legal monogamy does not lead to an increase in the number of gay people, therefore does not lead to a decrease in birth rate.
How do you define a "man" and a "woman"...? Chromosomes? What about the genetics of sexual orientation (or do you deny science as well?)? External genitalia? Since when is a person's soul identical with their penis or vagina? Do you know about the hundred-thousand or so babies born each year in the USA who have genitalia that don't match their chromosomes? Do you think God made a mistake with *them*?
Substitute "Negro" for "homosexual" in your posting and see how you sound. Who else do you want to suppress? How'bout you try living in Saudi for a while and then let us know how you like medievalist theocracy.
Exactly. Those who promote a segregationist marriage agenda cannot spell out how non-segregated marriage laws will hurt anyone, or how gay people marrying will hurt heterosexual married couples. They have no causal arguement, only a bunch of arbitrary definitions of "is" that would do credit to Bill Clinton's obfuscation of what "is" is.
Re. "who owns the word *marriage*?" Very well stated. Excellent.
Operationalize. HOW exactly does homosexuality threaten your family? Do you fear your wife would run off and marry a woman, or that you would wake up one day wanting to marry a man?
Your three planets hypothetical is absurd. Take one planet with Aryans, one with Negroes, and one with Asiatics, and see where you get. Diversity is strength. Monoculture is the breeding ground for pandemic.
As far as void of population is concerned, didn't you notice that we're presently breeding ourselves to death?
And as far as the Cathollic church is concerned: The Pope is the captain of the ship, whose word is law. And here we have an enormous scandal of child molestation and systemic organizational cover-up of same. In an organization with such completely hierarchic control, the leader bears full responsiblity for the actions of subordinates. The Catholic Church has, by its own actions, forfeited ANY and ALL right to say ANYTHING about sexual morality. The Church should enter a lengthy period of humble repentance, perhaps two or three generations' worth.
The honest truth about the Catholic Church and sexual morality: Pedophiles against abortion. Child molesters against gay monogamy. Kiddie-porn enthusiasts against contraception. Your church has committed enough mortal sins to last more than a few eternities. I dare you to argue your way out of that one.
Strictly speaking, bigots don't need to slander God with responsibilty for their bigotry. Simple primitive tribalism will do fine, and arguements about nature ("It's Not Natural" despite the fact that same-sex behaviors occur in over 200 animal species we know of) can be used when convenient.
In fact, Jesus' supreme commandments were: "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, and mind; and love thy neighbor as thyself." The first leaves no room whatsoever for hatred, and the second leaves no room whatsoever for discrimination.
If the point of marriage is to reproduce and raise the offspring, then how do you justify granting marital rights to childless couples? Something to do with "the potential" to have children? But then we're legislating rights (and the denial of rights) on the basis of "potential," which is a slippery slope to the worst kind of despotism. Shall we imprison all African American males because 30% of them eventually end up in prison anyway, so they clearly have "potential" to become criminals...? See where that leads?
Clearly the fact that the law does not penalize childless couples demonstrates that the ability to reproduce is not a precondition for legal rights in Western societies. There is no legal obligation to reproduce.
And in any case, as I said above, overpopulation is what's killing the planet. There will never be a risk that we will cease attempting to breed. A little neurological anomaly called the orgasm will take care of that contingency for as long as humans have human bodies.
Your definition of couple is tautological, therefore is merely an arbitrary assertion with no logical basis. And your insistence on genetic propagation as a standard for legal rights reminds me of doctrines about racial purity. Blech. And children shouldn't be exposed to whatever it is that their parents do in the bedroom: don't you have any standard of common decency? "Hey son, did you hear all that bumping and moaning noise last night? Mom and I were just having penis-vagina intercourse and that's *normal*. Want to watch the video tape?" Blech, again!
Children of parents who are not subjected to bigotry, always do better than children of parents who are subjected to bigotry. You can be sure that a lot more southern black kids grew up with anxiety disorders and depression back in the days of Jim Crow. Your arguement is equivalent to condemning black kids' parents and justifying Jim Crow. Blech again.
As for morals, try this: "Love of money is the root of all evil." ALL. The Apostle Paul was not making exceptions there. Love of money, not love of someone of your own gender.
Separate but equal. Exactly. And the bigots have figured this out, along with the fact that there is no way under the present Constitution that segregationist marriage laws of any kind can be sustained. Thus they try to tamper with the Constitution. They may as well be trying to bring back slavery.
BTW, you & I agree about the line between civil union (legal status: state) and marriage (religious sacrament: church).
Excellent point, the list of logical fallacies! It's darn good to see someone standing up for intellectual rigor!
Last but not least:
Yep, I'm gay (and single, and in the San Francisco Bay Area; anyone else out there?), and yes, my parents stayed married until my father died, and yes, I believe in God though perhaps in a somewhat unconventional way. Commitment counts. Liberty and justice for ALL.
Relevance to peak oil? This might be the solution to peak oil! Connect the Founding Fathers to generators, and make them spin in their graves. First pass a segregationist marriage amendment, then pass a firearms ban, and those Founding Fathers will spin so fast you'll have at least a gigawatt on the grid!
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Joined: Jun 25, 2004
Posted: 2004-12-01, 06:27:12 Post subject:
Excellent post gg3. I was also intersted to note your point about gay couples adopting having no bearing on the orientation of the child.
Many of the points bought up by the opus dei brigade on the forum were well refuted.
BTW, I am a practicing Catholic with 2 children and to blindly follow all the teachings of the church would be tantamount to lunacy IMO. As a previous poster pointed out, centuries ago you would be burned
ZS-SAZ From South Africa, joined Jul 2001, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 11353 times:
"a couple of months ago they had an article about a composer who was known to be gay, but whose wife stayed with him until death did them part. "
It was Cole Porter. They've just released a movie about it called De Lovely. You should watch it, it's a very sad and intense movie.
I think it will be more painful being married to someone and trying to suppress your homo desires than not being married to someone and expressing who you are.
Whether you're gay or straight, having a picture perfect white picket fence relationship is near impossible. There will always be difficulties, and all you have to do is find someone who is willing to confront these difficulties with you. Successfully negotiating these obstacles together is the white picket fence of a relationship.
As for having kids in a gay relationship, this will be a tough obstacle but with the right person, it isn't insurmountable.
ClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4634 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11348 times:
You'll get there.
Parts of the gay scene are exceptionally shallow, always have been, always will be, so I can completely understand where you're coming from.
I have never particularly worried about being old and single, because I don't think it will happen to me, and if it does happen to me, when that's just how life goes. What you want isn't too different from any person in the world - you want to be loved and to love.
It's not a big ask, but you need to think of the positive over the negative as much as possible - that is my job in many respects, with friends etc. Tell me something and I can spin positive
Regarding kids, well I get along extremely well with children and always have. I get all silly and will play with them and all the business and don't get bored of it. I would like to have children some day, and I may... but at the same time I accept that I am not in the majority in wanting kids and if it doesn't happen, I can live with that.
A family isn't two people and children. A family is what you make of it. It could be you and an extended series of friends. It could be anything.
Remember always, life is what you make of it and how you perceive it, not what anyone else thinks or wants.
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
Jaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11245 times:
Call up Star Jones' husband.
The big homo married that big hippo.
Its been a month and they're apparently still married.
Fall in love with a man, and have your own kids. Surrogate moms, adoption, etc., are all possibilities. One of my closest friends has 2 kids with a lesbian (through artificial insemination). He lives in Manhattan, she lives in Jersey. It all works out wonderfully. The kids are now 7 and 5.
NWAFA From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1893 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11236 times:
You can have the picket fence with a guy too! I have been with my partner over 10 years now..we talked about having children,then chose not to. I have a gay brother also..he has been with his partner 9 years. They have a beautiful son that is a year old now, and they are in the process of trying to have another one.
You can have the wonderful life that you should and deserve to have and still be true to who and what you are!
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11231 times:
You're young, and you're a med student.
You may live in Oklahoma now, but once you graduate the sky is the limit. There are beautiful neighborhoods in cities like Boston, Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, Washington, DC, Seattle, and Portland that have white picket fences and, more importantly, can't wait for you and your husband to get "married", move in, and have a family and 2 dogs.
Its a hard issue. When I was 20 or 21 or so I used to be very opposed to the concept of a gay family unit. I didn't feel I would ever want to be part of one, nor did I feel I would ever want to have kids or a normal life.
It will change. It might not change if you stay in Oklahoma, but there's lots of places where it can.
You're going to find a man. You're going to love him, he's gonna love you. You'll be successful, you'll buy a house, you'll adopt a beautiful child (or children). Trust me.
TWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11227 times:
NWAFA: Speaking of having gay brothers, I am one of 4 children (3 boys, 1 girl) and we're ALL gay. Have gay first cousins on both sides of the family too.
My younger brother repressed his sexuality (can't for the life of me figure out why... it's not like he didn't have support, he was the youngest of us for gods sake) and married a woman and has 2 kids... thought he could just play the straight game. I tried to tell him it wouldn't work, but he wouldn't listen. So, now he has a secret boyfriend on the side and is generally miserable and self-hating.
Pilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2539 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11146 times:
that's really interesting, to not be able to physically understand someone else, do u know what i mean, my reference is women, so i would never be able to understand bc i am attracted to women, although i 100% accept and respect the ways of others. I disagree with people that believe that being gay is not natural, i think it is natural, all humans are natural, for starters and so being gay if that is what you are, is natural. Also, there is no rule anywhere that says that all humans must reproduce...that is a great assumption made by many and even the stereotype of GAY has taken its toll on people because of uneducated traditional passings amongst generations. So many think being gay is an ousted, or misscreated being..BULL.
ual747: maybe if you have a kid from a woman, and then marry the man you like...would that be acceptable to you? I think being gay in this world is one of the hidden costs of being a human, because of all the preset bias against it.
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
: A gay man in a straight wedding?? ...I think NOT! [Edited 2004-12-02 20:49:38]
: Can't you adopt in the US if your gay?
: Yes, you can. In some municipalities it takes more effort than in others, but it is entirely possible. N
: In many places we can adopt..its very expensive for us. In FL Gay couples are NOT allowed to adopt, yet they can be foster parents. My brother and his
: You seem to doubt your ability to love another man... But at the same time you seem to be trying to convince yourself that maybe you can live as a gay
: Jaysit- Just go into your corner. Your angry and bitter sarcasm is not appreciated in this thread. Ual747 had a concern and I addressed it to the best
: jmc -- Its your constant boring preaching that is not needed. Your lousy book is a bitter and boring homophobic screed packaged in a saccharine coatin
: I don't think about all that. I just don't want to go be all alone when I get old... I can just see it... sitting on the front porch in a rocking cha
: Jaysit-- Have you read the book? By reading your response, it's quite clear that you are talking about something completely different.
: Have you read the book? By reading your response, it's quite clear that you are talking about something completely different. Yes, I have. And while W
: Wow, this thread went WAY down hill WAY quick! ...I guess not many people will be reading this one, huh?
: AA777, What is sad, is a child going from foster home to foster home, yet having two parents (man and man, woman and woman) is not normal> Waked!
: Guys, I would just like to point out that the post I made earlier was taken from another thread off another forum. Kudo's to gg3 for making. [insert -
: Well...I have seen and heard that lot of gay people have been cheating on their partners and broke their relationships all the times. That's why it's
: Well...I have seen and heard that lot of straight people have been cheating on their partners and broke their relationships all the times. That's why
: Well... I heard that vaginas have teeth in them. Anyway, back to logic and sanity, my best friend... a straight and stunning blond 34-year-old single
: I can empathise with UAL747 as I feel exactly the same. i am attracted to women emotionally but not physically. I have even considered getting marrie
: I like guys. Some are amazingly beautiful. Girls don't do anything for me. I want love, but I don't like the sex that goes along with it.
: Been there done that.... I thought I wanted to marry a woman. I even dated one and still talk to her all the time! I think we have known each other fo