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Where Is The EU Going (Pat Cox Ex-Parliament Pres)  
User currently offlineTeahan From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 5294 posts, RR: 61
Posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1636 times:

Earlier this evening I attended a lecture by the ex-European Parliament President Pat Cox (http://www.patcox.ie), hosted by the Irish Ch. Institute of Logistics and Transport.

"At a Time of Changes in The World, Where Is the EU Going Next?"

I am taking a politics module for the second year running, and this evening certainly put a lot into perspective. It was probably the best speech I’ve ever heard (on any subject) and I think the rest of the audience (not a huge one sadly) concurred; his clarity of ideas, his way of telling stories, his ability to connect with the audience and all this without any ‘distraction’ such as a slideshow.

Anyway, some key points I picked up (from memory so there may be errors, regretfully didn’t take any notes)

- The EU’s history can be summed up into a few key journeys including “From Sarajevo to Sarajevo”, from “From Paris to Rome” and “From Rome to Rome”. Self explanatory if you are at all familiar with European history [I just found it a particularly nice way of putting it.]
- First time since pre-Medieval times that there has not been a war ‘in Europe’ for over five decades. Easy to forget history, easy to forget the alternative.
- British government minister said something along the lines of ‘it won’t work and even if it does work it won’t last so why should we be part of something that won’t work or last’.. who came knocking at the door six years later.
- America is a melting pot (‘all for one, one for all’ motto), while Europe is a mosaic where its strength lies in its diversity. Since the foundation of the EU, individual culture and identity has strengthened if nothing else [from an Irish point of view, this seems to be a fair assessment]
- Why the irrational fear of handing over any sort of power? During each country’s accession process, every country must accept the doctrine of direct effect [EU law takes primacy over individual country laws]. Since then, have you ever felt oppressed, have you felt you’ve had rights taken away?
- New focus on the constitution isn’t just a coincidence. The EU needs new ‘glue’ now that the eastern threat is gone.
- Many US government politicians/officials talk down the EU and its power, yet at the same time there is a vitally important annual EU-US summit.
- Now moving towards something that is built on something else other than potential economic gain alone.
- Highly unlikely there will be any reference to God in the final constitution for the simple fact that 2/3rds of member states have no references in their own constitution (and after all, the EU mosaic is made up of the sum of individual states)
- A rather interesting opinion on the little Italian conflict.

Any references to the US were purely raised from questions, he was certainly not bitching about it.

Things to watch out for:

- Lisbon agenda
- EU 2007-2013 budget
- Constitution ratification.

Probably lots I’ve forgotten but hopefully some of it will come back in the morning.

So what is your opinion on where the EU is going?

Jeremiah





Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2539 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1631 times:

i think that Turkey can be in the EU, but not full membership, we should be given certain trials, we are a muslim country with slightly differnt approaches to certain things....The EU is sorting out its self and getting comfy. It will need to strengthen more with the new Asian free trade that is starting off.

certain things like our transportation is quite advanced, our banking, etc, our agriculture and tertiary industry, turkey would be a good addition to the EU, but not yet, some things must be sorted out first. Tourism is improving, the languages we are learning are improving, but we are a culture with several pasts and religions tugging at its roots so... full membership into the EU would strengthen the EU, and also improve trade and industry. Turkey could be a powerful gateway for Eur-Asian trade...im my dreams though...

I think the EU will play a large role when peace time comes, because it's going to get messier in the next few decades.

for those of you who want to post and bash turkey, dont take away from the people in this country that are trying hard to do what is necessary to get into the EU, no one in turkey says we belong there, we believe that we have a right to at least be given a chance, i dont see MAJOR differences between some less developed EU nations and turkey...



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineTeahan From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 5294 posts, RR: 61
Reply 2, posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1628 times:

Pat Cox didn't actually give an opinion on Turkey's potential for EU membership.

"i dont see MAJOR differences between some less developed EU nations and turkey..."

Well size.

Personally am I am neither for nor against Turkish membership. That said, I am not a believer in creating a club of 'half members', some of the stronger alliances in the past have been all or nothing. A culture of associate membership will leave people opt out of what they want (I would almost argue the system is already somewhat abused)

In any case, I think the EU (and its development) is fascinating. It is sad it does does not receive the credit it deserves. As Pat Cox said, "eaten bread is quickly forgotten".

Jeremiah



Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 53
Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1619 times:

I feel a specific european identity is growing fast... Ironically, the Bush administration´s hostility has greatly promoted it.

I feel a citizen of my home town, my home state, my home country, Europe and the world. Each link is particular and differs from the others; But in every case, it connects me to my fellow citizens on each level. And despite the usual problems on every level, this is the way it should be!  Big thumbs up


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1617 times:

i think that Turkey can be in the EU......we are a culture with several pasts and religions tugging at its roots so... full membership into the EU would strengthen the EU, and also improve trade and industry.

Turkish communities with the EU are refusing to integrate. Adding Turkey to the EU would allow up to 70M Turks to enter Europe -- it's a safe bet they will NOT integrate. Hence, admitting Turkey could result in massive cultural issues within the EU -- the dilution of European cultures and clashes with huge Muslim populations within Europe on a massive scale.

Also, Turkey is very much poorer than the EU average. Adding Turkey would result in a massive flow of aid from the EU into Turkey. I don't believe current EU tax payers wish to subsidize Turkey for a generation.

The EU should have the confidence and maturity to say to Turkey: you can't be in the EU but we wish to be close to you.

Human rights abuses in Turkey are also a reason not to admit Turkey to the EU.




[Edited 2004-12-03 04:49:11]


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14004 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1614 times:

YYZ, why are you so obstinate from across the ocean, when people actually living here and observing the situtation give an informed opinion? I think you have a Christian-White superiority complex.

Jan


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1612 times:

YYZ, why are you so obstinate from across the ocean, when people actually living here and observing the situtation give an informed opinion?

Translation: only Europeans can understand Europe and comment on it.  Insane

It is well known that Turkish admittance to the EU is a huge issue in Europe.m For all the reasons I mentioned. If you don't like cold hard facts or issues, pick a more politically correct forum.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 53
Reply 7, posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1611 times:

Yyz717: Translation: only Europeans can understand Europe and comment on it.

No, but your insistence on a rather extreme and quite un-european point of view still hasn´t found any takers yet. Don´t you start wondering if you may be way off what europeans actually think and feel?


Yyz717: If you don't like cold hard facts or issues, pick a more politically correct forum.

The problem is you´re so far away from the "cold hard facts or issues" that your ability to give an informed opinion appears to be very limited, to put it mildly.  Nuts


User currently offlinePilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2539 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1611 times:

i dont see greece banging out massive bucks...

and like i said earlier...the IRA, and the ETA, to name some and the Balkan areas...what about human rights records there

how do u know that turks are refusing to integrate? they are integrating, they arent doing what ur illogical ideal seems to be, which is drop their identity and become something else. You don't have to be like everyone else on a team, to be on a team. i havent seen one piece of proof that turks are not integrating, ive seen an opposite of turks marching for the german constitution...it isnt just turks that are immigrants in European nations...

look at France...a lot of them are north african...and muslim....u think they're all integrated? by your definition



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 53
Reply 9, posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1605 times:

Yyz has no idea about the european concepts or the current discourse about integration over here. I think we can safely drop that train of thought. Europeans will not demand the kind of submission he´s dreaming of.

And as for the issue of regional conflicts, see Non Aviation: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims, post 94.

By the way, Greece did in fact receive substantial aid from european funds; The amount should have reduced somewhat over the years as Greece has raised its standards; But Turkey with its even greater disparity and much larger volume would be a much bigger pill to swallow. I´m not averse in principle, but I can´t see it work for the short to medium term.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1598 times:

Yyz has no idea about the european concepts or the current discourse about integration over here.

Once again, in order to shut out the arguments of people he does not agree with, Klaus gets personal with non-Europeans and labels them as uninformed about EU issues. Nice try.

The fact remains that Turkey's entry into the EU is a HUGE issue for the EU for all the reasons I mentioned:
1. Turkey's Muslim faith.
2. Turkey's poverty.
3. Current Turkish communities in the EU not integrating.
4. Human rights abuses in Turkey.
5. Turkish mistreatment of the their Kurdish minority.

These issues are critical and should be discussed by all EU members. Each EU country should have a referendum on Turkish admittance.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24928 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1587 times:

The Turkish people are very nice and hospitable people. It is a great country to visit and I hope that they are allowed to enter the EU. Just dont start using the Euro though, otherwise they'll become just another region of France or Germany...much like Belgium, Holland and Italy have become.


When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1575 times:

Just wondering, has there been any added controversy about the little "tiff" with the Armenians? Or is that too far into the past to affect Turkey's EU candidacy?


"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlinePaulc From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 1490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1566 times:

Teahan,

the only reason the UK did 'come knocking at the door' was the fact that our original application to join was veto'd by France under De Gaulle. If we had been let in then, then perhaps we might feel less hostile towards the eu as we would have had some involvement in setting it up rather than accept the 'fait acompli' we have now.

Why did De Gaulle say no ? - probably to spite the 'old enemy' and show how resentful he was at having the UK, USA and other allies save their sorry asses for the 2nd time in 30 years. That resentment particularly towards the USA is still very much around.



English First, British Second, european Never!
User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 35
Reply 14, posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1564 times:

Seems like Teahan's intention was to question the question "where are we going ?" (as a community) and the post drifted quite a bit due to a strong SE wind.  Big grin

...I will follow the drift

Pilotaydin, Greece did indeed receive big bucks in the 80's and 90's, if it was not for that you can safely bet that the country's infrastucture would still be at mid 20th C level (...and Gr would not have had the Olympics).
I remember also that the massive funding was unproperly checked and that quite a few individuals grew very rich overnight, obliging Brussels to put safeguards into place. Today, funds are allocated when appropriate projects are actually in place and every further step is double checked.
From the theoritical allocation, Greece is barely able to secure about 50-60%...

Yyz, no, the prospect of Turkey becoming a fellow member is not a big issue at this stage.

The EU quite simply and logically (due to Turkey's size/weight and obvious disparities) wants and will put a number of safeguards into place, in order to insure that the fact of starting the process of admission does not automatically lead to an admission, and even if successful, that immigration can be kept in check at any given time.

I do not see why Turkey should not be given its chance to enter the club, provided Turkey understands that the challenge can have two outcomes.

Not later than yesterday did Mssrs Schroeder (pm DL) and Verhofstad (pm B) insist that the coming talks on Dec16-17 lead to a formal start.

Kirk, thanks for the humoristic touch.


User currently offlineTeahan From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 5294 posts, RR: 61
Reply 15, posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1556 times:

@PaulC:
I was referring to the European Economic Community, not the EU as we know it. The above statement was made in 1955, de Gaulle's veto was in 1963.



Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 35
Reply 16, posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1547 times:

Paulc,
it is not a "fait accompli", every nation in the EU can decide to leave the club, no obligation.

Glorious past = uncertain future ??




User currently offlineTeahan From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 5294 posts, RR: 61
Reply 17, posted (9 years 9 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1517 times:

Iakobos:

I think that is far easier said than done. Unless something really dramatic was to change, I doubt it would be politically achievable for any given nation to just leave the EU.



Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14004 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (9 years 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1509 times:

I think if a EU member wanted to leave the union, it would be a major political and economical headache, untangling all relationships and interdependencies, but I don´t see the EU invading a country Warsaw pact style to force it to stay...

Jan


User currently offlineTeahan From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 5294 posts, RR: 61
Reply 19, posted (9 years 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1505 times:

@Jan/MD11Engineer:

Of course not, but I also believe the EU could (potentially) make it extremely difficult and frustrating for a country to leave on bad terms. Imagine how isolated a country could be made be. Now I am by no means suggesting the EU would do that, or that it would even be in the EU's interests, rather the opposite.

In the short/medium term (the lenght of one, maybe two normal political terms of office), I question if it would be possible for a country to untangle the relationships and interdependancies; meanwhile in the longer term would the 'leaving the EU' stance last, possibly not.



Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14004 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (9 years 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1504 times:

Off course, I think if e.g. Ireland or Spain would suddenly want to leave after, for example because subsidies expire, the remaining nations wouldn´t be on friendly terms, and I assume that a trade wat could result.

Jan


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