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Down With The Left!  
User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 43
Posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2432 times:

I cannot overstate the eloquence and accuracy of the forthcoming article. I could not have stated it better myself. How any of you left wingers can read it and then say in good conscience "bullsh**" is either a blatant pathalogical liar, a 24 karat example of what is being dicussed, or both.
I say with all candidness that anyone who disagrees with this article is a threat to my freedom and should be imprisoned for treason.
That's how strongly I feel about it.
I realize we have freedom of speech here, but promoting the Communist/Socialist agenda that is the ultimate goal of left wingers, well that's where I draw the line.
Down with the left!!!!
Let's hear it for Reagan, Bush Sr, Bush Jr, "Ike", and even ol' Pat Buchannan.
As for Clinton, Gore, FDR, Johnson, Kennedy, the NAACP, the AFL/CIO, Greenpeace, and anyone else who proudly proclaims their "leftsis" views, I would like to sincerely, categorically, and emphatically tell you two things:
F-You and go to hell!!!!

Anyway, this article is courtesy of the LA Times Editorial section.
Like I said, it's the best thing I've seen in print for eons!!!

"When the Democratic National Convention meets in Los Angeles next week, it will be besieged by hordes of protesters representing about 70 different groups. These groups will be opposing, among other things, a strong military, genetically modified crops, technology, tax vouchers for education, global trade and welfare reform. They will be advocating fully socialized medicine, higher taxes on the wealthy and ending missile defense research. The "People's Convention," a counter-convention representing various socialist and communist organizations, will offer a platform that includes a guaranteed wage to everyone--even those who choose not to work--and nationalization of all property belonging to people whose wealth exceeds an unspecified minimum level. A core motto of the convention protesters will be "Human Needs, Not Corporate Greed."
Although the protesting groups may seem on the surface to be as varied as snowflakes, at root they are united by their common hatred of freedom, capitalism and progress. A strong U.S. military is essential to our freedom because numerous dictatorships, such as China, North Korea and Iraq, are developing long-range missiles that will be directed at the United States. Crops that are genetically engineered to increase yields will become lifesavers as the population continues to increase at a rapid rate. Technological progress will benefit us in numerous other ways: increasing airline and automobile safety, raising energy efficiency and curing deadly diseases. The latter soon will include the ability to grow new organs from patients' own cells to replace diseased or damaged organs.
Tax vouchers for education will allow parents who cannot afford private schools to select schools of their choice, thus undermining the government's unconscionable monopoly in this area. As to socialized medicine, it can have only one effect: poor medical care for everyone. America's remnants of private medicine still bring people desperate for treatment from all over the world.
Now consider the real meaning of the "Human Needs, Not Corporate Greed" slogan. Capitalism has brought our country, and every other country that has tried it, a higher standard of living than any other system. Socialism has brought humanity nothing but stagnation, poverty and suffering in every country that has embraced it; witness Cuba, North Korea, Russia. That which the protesters call "corporate greed"--which presumably means a free economy and the desire for profit--is the only means to satisfy human needs on a large scale.
The protesters will reply that capitalism denies "social justice" because every person (and every country) does not make the same amount of money. They view the rich as immoral and regard the United States as the guiltiest country on Earth because it is so wealthy. What the protesters want is to drain the wealth of the producers and give it to those who are not productive.
They are right on one point: Capitalism is the antithesis of egalitarianism. Under capitalism, people get only what they earn; they do not have the right to seize what someone else has earned. What the socialists want is an unjust world, a world where they forcibly harness the able, the competent, the hard-working--the productive--to reward the nonproductive. What the protesters refuse to acknowledge is that capitalism is the system of genuine "social justice."
Why are the protesters choosing the Democratic convention as their venue? Because they know where their ideological home is. The Democrats always have championed the "little guy," which often has meant penalizing those who made it big. But as philosopher Ayn Rand once noted, there are no little people in America. There are only people, equal before the law, yearning to breathe free and wanting to achieve the best within them.
Most Americans do not hate the rich and do not feel guilty because some people or nations are less rich than they are. They do not want to enslave their doctors or their teachers or their inventors or their business leaders--or themselves. They want real justice: Each person gets what he earns and has no moral claim on the property of others. They respect individual rights and admire, rather than envy, those who are successful in their lives and careers.
In opposing freedom, progress and justice, the protesters are opposing everything that is good about America. Let us have some counterdemonstrators at the Democratic convention, holding up signs that reveal a love for the good: man at his best, man as free, independent, responsible for his own life, proud of his achievements and unwilling to be sacrificial fodder for those who would enslave him."

I dare you....with the wager of both my testicles on the chopping block for any of you left wingers to rationally, convincingly and with FACTS refute ANY of this article.
Oh yeah....don't use any of that rhetoric about any of the following because you know and I know it's BS.
So please refrain from using any of the following in your rebuttal:

Old fashioned
closed minded

Now here's the kicker.
I'm so convinced that no one and I do mean NO ONE will be able to do that, (write a convincing, plausible rebuttal to that essay and not using any of the words or concepts that I listed afterwards) that I will mail a crisp $100 dollar US bill to anyone that can pull it off.
You have it in writing.

83 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineAwaramper From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2099 times:

I couldn't agree with you more.
GO GET UM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

User currently offlineSKYTEAM From France, joined Nov 2009, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2092 times:

HELL YEAH MATT!!!!! Its about time someone spoke up. You would make a great President


User currently offlineCarioca Canuck From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2092 times:

That was a fantastic article.

I couldn't agree with you more. Having lived in a country where socialism has ruled supreme for almost the last 30 years all I can say is it doesn't work. Unfortunately, those of us who are still here have finally figured it out........but the damage has been done.

For all of you people who think that I am wrong....in 1969 the Canadian Dollar was worth $1.17 USD....now the Canadian "Peso" errrrrrrr Dollar is worth $.52 when I exchange my currency.

Explain that while you are at it....OK ?

User currently offlineChris28_17 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1439 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2081 times:

Damn straight!

Matt D for Pres.


User currently offlineJ_hallgren From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2080 times:

"Dittos!!!" as we say

Left needs to go down..way way down...maybe out...

Let's "banish Bill out of the house" as on Big Brother...
Or "Vote Al off the D.C. island at the next tribal council"

COBOL - Not a dead language yet!
User currently offlineFidel castro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2083 times:

Mat you are one of the most brainwashed, mindless freaks i have ever met. no i couldn't write an essay that good because i am basicly illiterate form my shit education provided by the government. The news paper writes something convincing and you fucks all blindly follow. Why do you think communism has failed??? because americans interviened? Cuba has freedoms doesnt it? it has the freedom to run its government the way it pleases? then why should the high and mighty united states feel threated because a "third world" country decides to set up a regime that spreads the wealth? you know whats wrong with america?? 10% of americains own 60% of all wealth!!

you have homeless families living in their cars around the courner from wall street! you have 40 million people with out health care??

america is a realy f##ked up country, communism does not deminish freedom, it simply spreads the wealth, it is not something to be feared. propagandha such as that article is what makes american stink like dick cheese

User currently offlineFidel castro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2073 times:

here is what some one else had to say

the Two Party System

For decades, Americans have lived in a "two party" political system, where everyone pretends that the Democrats and the Republicans represent the full range of political opinion in the country. These two "real" political parties (unlike those trouble-making third parties) have grown increasingly similar. Bill Clinton the Democrat passed laws that Republicans George Bush and Ronald Reagan lobbied for and failed. Candidates this year have learned that to be successful is to move towards the "center" politically, making the distinctions between Republican and Democrat just about non-existent.

The similarities between the two groups is most obvious when you look at who funds them, who pays the bills, who's "campaign contributions" are determining party platforms: big corporations. If you take a look at the funders for the major parties, both the Republicans and the Democrats, you see a roll-call of insurance companies, media conglomerates, oil companies, tobacco companies, telecommunications firms, and pharmaceutical companies.

This is Democracy? We get to choose between Exxon's man or Coca-Cola's? Which elderly white male millionaire will save us all?

Voting is only one aspect of political participation. Protest movements, demonstrations, strikes, civil disobedience, art, literature, and conflict have always had much more influence in this country than the vote.

Protesters swarmed over the Republican National Convention in Philadelphia last week. The police responded in their usual fashion, mass arrests, intimidation, and violence. One of the protest organizers, John Sellers of the Ruckus Society, was arrested on several misdemeanor charges, and his bail set at a completely ridiculous $1 million.

And the Democratic National Convention will be taking place soon in Los Angeles, August 14-17. Will you be there to make your voice heard?

User currently offlineAvion From Bouvet Island, joined May 1999, 2205 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2065 times:

What you say reakky has foundation. Anyone should get what he worked for. But that makes big spread between poor and rich.

Communism and capitalism are surely not the way to go. You must find a way in the middle.

I believe Healthcare and education should be free. Like it is in europe. The US lags behind in medial coverage and qualitly to all western european countries. The US also has an average lesser standard of living. Capitalism is surely not the way to go. You maybe should stop pumping all your money into the nasa and should use it for Health Care.


User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2073 times:

Hey nobody said our system was PERFECT and utopian.
But given the choice of a police state vs the corporate state, I'd still take the corporate state hands down, no questions asked.

User currently offlineFrequence plus From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 108 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2059 times:

Matt D:
you wrote:
>>Let's hear it for Reagan, Bush Sr, Bush Jr, "Ike", and even ol' Pat Buchannan.
As for Clinton, Gore, FDR, Johnson, Kennedy, the NAACP, the AFL/CIO, Greenpeace, and anyone else who proudly proclaims their "leftsis" views, I would like to sincerely, categorically, and emphatically tell you two things:
F-You and go to hell!!!!<<

If you were looking to debate the issue of Left vs Right, you have failed miserably! In fact, your $100 will probably remain safe because anyone in their right mind would not only see your post as irrational and hot-headed, but they would be personally insulted as well. You are not looking for healthy discussion here, you are clearly looking to pick a fight. That's not debate, that's schoolyard bullsh*t.

To state your opinion, or, your appreciation of a similar opinion is one thing, but to literally DARE people, while telling them to f*ck off at the same time, leads absolutely nowhere, with no solution.

As for me, I totally disagree with your political opinions, but that remains my opinion, for my reasons, and I would not think to bash you for your opinions and reasoning. I despise the people in your 'heroes' list, especially for their heritage of non-inclusion and rich-white-male-centric policy and thought. However, I don't hold your political preferences against you, this is after all a democracy, right? If it were up to you, I guess it wouldn't be, we would be stuck in your world.

If you're looking for intelligent responses, I suggest you repost, in a more diplomatic manner. Then you might get the caliber of reply that this topic deserves.

I am not interested in debating my political beliefs with you or anyone, but I will not stand by and see you or anyone post as if they were God's chosen prophet, nay-saying others before they even get a chance to express themselves.

Come again Matt D, and this time do it correctly!

(this message has been brought to you, not from the left or the right, but from the conscious and the aware...)

User currently offlineN863DA From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 48 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2058 times:

Finally I have support with my supposedly fascicst views. The difference is I don't deny this.

That article is the most eloquent rebuttal to the left-wingers of this world I think we can all afford to rest back for a few seconds, smile and take a deep breath while reading it. THANK GOD FOR MATT D!

Matt D and I (and some others on this thread) are DEFINATELY on the same wavelength.


N 8 6 3 D A

User currently offlineTexairport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2043 times:

Why penalize people who have the desire and motivation to accomplish things in their life, whether financially or not? That is ludicrous. If America is so messed up, why are their so many immigrants here? Why is the US the melting pot? They come/came here because they know they will have an opportunity, a chance to reach the American dream. These people are defecting from communist countries and risking their lives to make it to the US.

The American dream is that hard work and dedication will pay off and you will be rewarded. I believe the one thing that is a barrier to the American dream is education. IMHO, education is the key, the foundation to success in America. With an education, your ability to make positive decisions that will help you reach your personal goals will be enhanced. If you don't have an education don't have the drive to earn an education, you work at minimum wage and expect hand outs for the rest of your life. Not many people have goals that include standing in a subway station jiggling a cup of change.

Consider this as well, in all these communist countries where the wealth is spreaded, the party officials still control the majority of the wealth of these countries, much more than the 10/60 situation in America.

User currently offlinePeter From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2041 times:

You're right Matt D

By the way, I couldn't dissagree with Fidel castro more. He is completely wrong.

User currently offlineSurf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2126 times:

LOL! you guys are ALL stupid, Jesus Christ Matt D, that editorial is about the extreme fringe, just like far right militia groups etc etc...for you to compare fringe groups like that to JFK, Clinton etc etc. is just plain RETARDED...I might as well then go and equate the militia groups and the KKK and like ilk to Reagan and Bush and Nixon etc etc...

Oh and please stop carping about people threatening your freedom, if you really believe that those people are a threat to you freedom then you are ultra paranoid. Come on, would you get real? Those people are the extreme fringe and have no effect on anything...of course 99% of what they say is totally outrageous but then again the same can be said for the extreme far right fringe...IT'S THE FRINGE FOLKS, THE FRINGE.....

And then there is all of you going "go Matt D" "Matt D for president", "oh thanks Matt D for supporting my views"..well if you believe that those people are somehow a majority or a real threat at all or anything other than a freak fringe then maybe you need to get out from under the rock you have been living under...talk about knee jerk posting without even thinking....

You know I can't even believe the Los Angeles Times even let that author waste space writing about those protesters in the first place.....

User currently offlineSurf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2033 times:

oh wait, Frequence Plus is not stupid....sorry FP!

User currently offlineSurf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2035 times:

And one more thing:

All you people who take those prostesters seriously, and who Knee Jerk posted and said crap like "Go Matt D" etc, should go back and read his post again with a calm, rational perspective, then read the post by Frequence Plus, then my original reply to the topic...and then start feeling embarrassed....

User currently offlineTupolev154B2 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1332 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2031 times:

>>Why penalize people who have the desire and motivation to accomplish things in their life, whether financially or not?

I completely agree! Those with the desire and motivation for accomplishment and hard work deserve all of the rewards that they carry. This in turn gives everyone else those same qualities. To all of those who see that competition is bad, understand that it makes the world a better place. For example, why are Boeing and Airbus producing planes that have nearly the same good qualities? Because of the competition that exists between them. Competition motivates people to achieve and succeed and the benefits in the meantime are felt by all of the rest of us.

Plus guess what - we've also got so-called anarchists going here! Now who the f*ck would want to destroy society and order? Although I do like what a huge chunk of the protesters stand for, i.e. helping the poor and the needy and supporting certain rights, a lot of other ones (i.e. the aforementioned anarchists), AKA hippies, are in need of something more than a life.

User currently offlineCwapilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1166 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2036 times:

Gap between rich and poor, or gap between success due to drive and ambition, and failure due to a lack thereof? Interesting question. The goal of the leftist is to convince people that they are somehow entitled to that which someone else has produced with their resources. In accepting this premise, they must learn to toss aside their reliance and confidence in their own God-given abilities and strengths, and learn to rely on what the leftists in charge of the state feel obliged to toss their way. They become dependent on the leftists, which achieves for the leftits their only real goal: absolute and unchecked power over the people. So now, through the generations, you will have entire segments of the population (the entire population is the ultimate goal) who do not know what it is to earn, to produce, to have personal responsibility. All they know is to put their hands out and to protest when nothing is placed in their hand. The leftists have control...do as we say, or there will be nothing placed in your hand. Very egalitarian, isn't it? Everyone is equally miserable. The leftists have spread the wealth to everyone. Meanwhile, the country is drained of all ambition, creativity and inventiveness. Welcome to the Third World! But hold up! The leftists in charge do not look so bad off. They live in mansions, speak from oaken podiums, eat the finest food, drink the finest wine. They are the biggest leaches of them all! However, if one of the people actually earns their way to that standard of living, despite all of the obstacles placed in front of him by the leftists, the leftists must rally the troops and point out how greedy and evil this person is. Everyone should be envious and jealous of him. It is obviously at their expense that he has become rich! He should be forced to hand over at least 50 to 60% of what he has produced and earned to...you guessed it, the leftists. They have to correct this injustice! Nevermind that the industry this person built up provides jobs for a lucky few who also see the need to get ahead. But, to the leftist, this is more dangerous...this whole concept, this CAPITALISM seems to become contagious!

Parallel this story to the current American situation. The Democrats, the American left, are not poor people. Look at the current Democrat presidential ticket. Two rich white men, bent on building up their own power, for the sake of having power. They purchase the same stocks as their rivals in the other party, they build up their wealth in the same way. But somehow, that way is not for the rest of us poor slobs. Bush wants people to be able to take a portion of THEIR social security contributions, IF THEY SO CHOOSE, and invest it in stock to grow their nest egg. That's how Bush makes his money, so he figures, why shouldn't everyone else? According to our leftist Democrats, the average person is not smart enough to do this. THEY ACTUALLY SAID THIS. We are too stupid to invest our OWN money. Some people might loose! Then we would have to spend more to prop them up! Well, if you continue to rely on leftist-think, we would! However, if I lose money, I lose it...my fault...I am not entitled to turn around and demand the money I squandered back.

That's the story of the American left. They rely on the fact that they have been able to keep large segments of the population stupid and undereducated and dependent upon their handouts. Why do you think the huge high-rise public housing buildings have existed? Well, according to Richard J. Daley, former Mayor of Chicago, father of the current Mayor Richard M. Daley, we should stack em up. It makes it easier to bus them to the polls on election day to keep him and his leftist fat cats in power...if they want to eat, that is. If the Democrats target you as a special class they want to help, beware! All they want to do is enslave you. They have kept large parts of the African American community enslaved in this way. They are now targeting Hispanics, and have already succeeded with poor Whites. The African American and Poor White dynamic has always been interesting with the American left. The Democrats, while publicly touting "tolerance," have been damn good at pitting these groups against each other, while at the same time garnering the votes of both groups! The fact is, the left uses fear, ignorance, envy, jealousy, suspicion...in one word DIVISION...to keep their grip on power. Captialism is always good enough to keep the leftists in power nice and fat, but not the average citizen. I never saw any skinny, poorly-clad Soviet leaders back in the day. Fidel looks to be doing quite well for himself, while his country sits in ruins. Can't blame the US embargo...he trades with the rest of the world, just not us. The problem is, he, like other leftists, spread PART of the wealth, and keep the rest for themselves, at the expense of the people. At least all Cubans are equal...equally miserable.

I have to respond to Avion and his obsession with the poor state of American healthcare. All of these people supposedly without healthcare...actually, those are Clinton administration figures on those not covered by health insurance policies. Nevermind that a majority of those represented are young individuals who happen to be eligible for health coverage through their employer but nonetheless opt out in order to add more to their overall income. You see, they have to make up somehow for the huge chunk of change Uncle Sam takes out of their check each week to prop up those whom the left has robbed of their ambition and innovation. Nevermind the fact that the poor, who are eligible for these handouts, and are dependent upon them due to generations of abuse by the left, are eligible for free healthcare, known as Medicaid. So they are covered. But what about those others who actually WORK, so are too "wealthy" to be eligible for Medicaid, but do not get coverage through their employer. Let me tell you about them. They work for small companies whose entrepreneur owners cannot afford to keep their small business afloat and provide insurance coverage. This is a huge problem, unique in the US, as most of the new jobs created in this country are due to these people taking initiative and building up a business. What prevents them from being able to afford to provide health coverage for their employees is THE LEFT! The left professes that these people, although they also go with out health insurance themselves, are greedy, rotten people. We should be envious of them, and tax them at rediculously high rates! Then, we shold put into place a myriad of regulations on the insurance and healthcare industries, so that we (THE LEFT) can keep control over them and also get our piece of the action! This drives up costs tremendously.

So, should we create more handouts, or should we free our entrepreneurs from the red tape that is holding them back so that they can legitimately afford to proved their employees with coverage? Tax cuts, while they do benefit the wealth to some degree, also help those who are not so well off tremendously. But, the left relies again on ignorance and fear and envy to put down this argument. "Hey, he saves $80,000 per year because of the tax cut, you don't even make that much in 3 years!" What they forget to add is that that $80,000 is used by that entrepreneur to invest in his own business, which benefits not only imself but his employees. He also invests it in other businesses. He also uses it to purchase more, which creates and sustains more jobs, giving more people the chance to get where he is today.

Beware of the left. We conservatives are accused of being narrow-minded...look above at what the left does. Now who is narrow minded?

Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
User currently offlineSurf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2030 times:

cwapilot, do you HONESTLY believe that if those small businesses were taxed less they would provide health coverage to their employees or would they just say "hooray! more income for the bottom line!" (while purchasing health insurance coverage for themselves) come on, you KNOW the truth here...and it isn't more health coverage...and dont even START with the issue of HMO's, where medical descisions end up being made by accountants...for what else? THE BOTTOM LINE

But back to the original ludicrous post that started this thread...

User currently offlineCwapilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1166 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2024 times:

Yes, Surf, I do honestly believe this. And, yes, more people would be able to go into business for themselves if they were not bludgeoned to death with red tape and rediculously high taxes. You ignore the fundamentals of this economy, and I am not surprised, given your slant. While large corporations can survive utilizing come and go employees from temp agencies, small businesses, when they get to the point of needing to hire help, need the best help they can get. Like large corporations, the way to do this is through offering competetive benefits packages. The new jobs being created in this economy are, by and large, due to the growth of small enterprises. At the same time, the big boys are downsizing. When I read about these massive job cuts at large corporations, yet see that, overall, the number of jobs available has remained steady or gone up, I am reassured. If my father could afford to offer healthcare coverage to attract the Harvard graduate to his team, rather than the community college drop out happy to get a job anywhere, you're damn right he would spring for the healthcare coverage. The only reason nationalized healthcare gets floated around here is because the leftists want further control over a segment of our economy which could give them the power to decide who lives and who dies.

People in the United States are growing tired of the cynicism people like yourself like to spread. Small business owners are NOT evil, people. They live right next door to you. Their kids go to school with your kids. They sit next to you in church. The leftists just want you to fear them, as they are antithesis to everything the left wishes to accomplish and has built up over the decades. Below is an article written by a Democrat of all people, who wishes his party would find a new message. It will fall on deaf ears, of course, as the left is in solid control of his party. Interesting nonetheless:

" Purge the Petty Populism, Al

By Dick Morris

Economic populism is a dead and discredited theme in American
politics. For Al Gore to be wrapping his campaign and his
convention around "us" vs. "them" rhetoric is a mistake of historic

As annoyed as people may be about high gas prices and as
convinced as they are that profits for oil companies are behind
the recent increases, they also understand that greed is not the
only or even the most important cause of these hikes. The highly
sophisticated public grasps that the switch to gas-guzzling
minivans, the increased energy use prosperity has brought and
OPEC's new discipline are all elements in triggering the rise in

As upset as they may be with the high prices of prescription
medicines and as convinced as they are that profiteering by drug
companies is helping to drive up the prices, they realize that it's
not that simple. Today's educated voters accept that drug
companies need high profits to subsidize research and are more
grateful for the medical advances than they are angry about the
price at which they come.

As disturbed as they may be about over-regulation by HMOs of
their medical care, and as sure as they are that it often keeps the
best treatments from those who need them, people get it that
HMOs are a necessary evil. They remember the huge medical
inflation of previous years and understand that second-guessing
doctors by HMOs is key to stopping it. They also realize that trial
lawyers, the Democrats' friend, are also doing their bit to drive up
health-care costs.

Education, information and an increasingly complex public
understanding of economics are all combining to undermine the
viability of economic populism as a political strategy.

It sounds so good in speeches. It energizes the candidate. It
wows them at the convention. It draws applause and cheers from
the faithful. It even wins primaries. It provides an easy way to
show passion and commitment. But economic populism doesn't
work in getting swing voters. They recognize it for the simplistic
pandering that it is.

Social, not economic, populism is what works today. The
economic royalists have not been attractive targets for decades.
But Hollywood, television and sex and violence in video games are
very easy things to dislike. The social populists hammer at how
the cultural elites are undermining traditional family values and
strike a deeply responsive chord among voters.

One wonders who will show up at next week's convention - the Al
Gore who has helped to lead the Democratic Party away from this
bankrupt dependence on class warfare, or the one who so
fervently embraces it on the stump? The Joe Lieberman whose
Democratic Leadership Council has pioneered policies that cut
across the economic strata, or the Lieberman who was on display
in Nashville echoing populist Al's denunciations of economic

Gore's choice of Joe Lieberman certainly indicates that his heart is
in the right place. Lieberman's record is decidedly centrist and
creative. He is probably the single U.S. senator the others trust
the most and clearly the intellectual leader of the party's
moderate wing.

But Robert Shrum, Gore's populist consultant, will not be held
down. He and his leftist colleagues are likely to continue to insist
on dragging the candidate into liberal class-warfare formulations
that don't work and haven't worked for 30 years.

Americans do not want to be poor. They do not want to identify
with the poor. They buy generic brands in the supermarket
because they cost less and pride themselves on their intelligence
in bargain-hunting. But call those same paper towels "poor people"
towels, and none will sell.

They identify with the needs of the class they want to become,
not the economic class they want to leave. Our individual sense
of upward mobility is too acute and our ambitions too important to
cultivate the sense of class solidarity that is a vital precondition
of economic populism.

If Lieberman brings a sense of moderation to the Democratic
ticket, he will be doing a service to Gore. If his ethnicity heralds
an era of inclusion in which the party sheds its class
he will help win in November.

But if Lieberman is along just to echo the stale populist rhetoric
Gore is handing out these days, he will be aboard a sinking ship.

Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
User currently offlineSurf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2063 times:


User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2020 times:

1) SURF: You have saved me (and probably several other readers) a lot of time by posting a very logical, eloquent response that succinctly communicated the same thoughts I was thinking. Thanks. Nonetheless, a few more thoughts...

2) As Surf stated, this article isn't about the mainstream "left," it's about left wing radicals, whom are just as obnoxious (sans the religious bullcrap) as right wing radicals. Of course any logical person isn't going to argue against the point of the article. The point of the article is to highlight the flawed logic of extremist groups, and offer supporting comments about this country's economic and political structure. Who's going to argue against that???

3) The fact that these groups are protesting at the Democratic convention shows just how centrist the party's platform is in comparison to the views of these groups. Thus...

4) Matt's logic is once again flawed.

First, he doesn't understand the principles of debate (he doesn't want a debate over this article. Instead, he feeds a need to feel superior by framing his opinion as infallible. Under such a pretense, a real debate is not possible.)

Second, he uses the article as support against Clinton, Gore, blah, blah, blah. As stated, this article is about protesters AGAINST the Democratic platform. The very first line of the frickin article states "When the Democratic National Convention meets in Los Angeles next week, it will be besieged by hordes of protesters representing about 70 different groups." Protesters: people who protest. Protest: to object to. Besiege: To crowd around. So, for Matt and all those who have trouble reading and understanding this article: People are crowding around the convention to protest against things the Democrats stand for. If these people agreed with everything the Democrats stand for, why in the hell would they be protesting????? And, if the radical left is protesting
AGAINST the Democrats, what the hell is your fucking point, Matt??????????
Get your mouth off of Pat Buchanan's cock and/or your crack pipe and think before you type. You dare people not to use the words hateful/spiteful, racist, intolerant, etc. in their responses. Not much of a dare considering you've missed the whole point of the issue, and these words aren't even relevant for a response for or against the point of the article.

5) The responses communicating the sentiment "Go Matt D." show how easy it is to fool the masses... evidence of how people like Hitler and the Ayatollah can come to power. It's not Matt D., that the folks above are really supporting. It's the principles of free market capitalism and democracy as espoused in the article that people support. Count me in as a supporter of those as well. But don't let that message get distorted by someone who misinterprets an article in order to support those who genuinely believe in limiting personal freedoms (i.e. Buchanan, Bush Sr., etc.). That is the real threat to democracy and freedom.

An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineCwapilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1166 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2016 times:

Typical response, when the same old, fearful rhetoric runs out. Like George W. Bush said of Al Gore, which applies to all left-wing Democrats, "He leads the party of Franklin Delano Roosevelt; but all he has to offer, is fear itself." Keep your head in the sand, buddy, and watch the nation pass you by.

Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (15 years 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2016 times:

Sorry for the overuse of italics in my last post. I guess the "/i" command didn't work. Everything after the bold sentence was supposed to be in normal type.

An unexamined life isn't worth living.
25 TWFirst : Whom are you referring to Cwapilot? Me or Surf?
26 Cwapilot : How easily you are fooled! The Democrat convention has traditionally attracted these fringe groups preceisely because the people inside the convention
27 Cwapilot : First one was Surf; second one was you. Sorry.
28 TWFirst : Oh, so the protests and arrests at the Republican Convention this year were made up by the liberal media??? Ahh, the liberal conspiracy thickens, does
29 Cwapilot : The liberal media went so far as to admit that the protesters at the Republican Convention were nothing compared to what is to come in LA. The protest
30 Surf : i'm starting to think that CWA is a right wing radical himself....
31 Cwapilot : You must have the little red playbook handy, Surf! Slick Willy and Algore would be proud. When all else fails, resort to personal attack and try to pa
32 Surf : As you seem to have me painted as some leftist, cwa, let me inform you (not that it's any of your business) about my voting record. First of all, I am
33 Surf : oh and by the by...for what it's worth people like *me* called Bob Dole what? Excuse me, do you know me? Do you what I have said and not said about Bo
34 Cwapilot : Thanks for proving my point! Nothing factual, just trying to bring a previously civil conversation down into the pits of absurdity. And, by the way, M
35 TWFirst : Not that anyone's interested, but I'm in Surf's camp as well. I vote for the candidate, not the party. Voted Republican in the last St. Paul mayoral r
36 Avion : IMMIGRANTS Where are all your immigrants from? I'm not counting those that cam 50 or more years ago! 0.0001% come from the EU! The EU is not communist
37 Post contains images 777YYC : People are entitled to their own beliefs!!!!!!!!! You think what you think, I think what I think. Neither of us is neccicerly(sp?) right! And remember
38 Surf : ohhh my lord....cwa...what did I do to bring any conversation down to abusudity? Calling you Mr. Hothead Potato"E" LOL hahahahahaha..good god you take
39 TWFirst : BTW CWAPilot, I'm curious: How many presidential elections have you voted in? You're profile says you're in the 21-25 age range. If you're recently 21
40 Whippy : If Conservatism is wrong, how can Liberalism be RIGHT????
41 Post contains images 777YYC : Not being on the far right does not make someone a communist! You have to be moderate. Being extreme on either side of the spectrum doesn't help anyon
42 Matt D : It's been less than 24 hours since I've started this thread, and even I must say that I'm shocked at the firestorm of responses it brought. So, I woul
43 Matt D : Those of you who see me as a "threat" to your freedom really only need feel that way if you believe in the following: Welfare Food stamps/WIC Gov't sp
44 Post contains images Cwapilot : I am almost out off that 20-25 category...25 to be exact. I have worked in politics since the 8th grade, reading anything I could get my hands on. My
45 Tupolev154B2 : I do believe that some affirmative action is necessary to ensure that at least everyone, even those who may not be as able to attain it, a chance at s
46 Matt D : I'm sorry, but nothing would make me happier than to see that "safety net" cut, and anyone actually falling towards it fall THROUGH it. Why should I h
47 Cwapilot : I would just like to note that Matt D does not reflect the views of about 99% of those who label themselves conservative. Matt, you should be ashamed
48 Post contains images TWFirst : Thanks for the response Cwapilot. I think it's fascinating to learn about people and their background, and how people have become what they are. After
49 Post contains images CstarU : If Right-wingers didn't complain and whine about anything they wouldn't be Right-wingers...Anyway, nobody mentioned the flouridization of drinking wat
50 N863DA : Matt, I know you don't care, but I think that you are beginning to lose some of your following... that is getting just a little extreme maybe perhaps
51 CstarU : ...must be post-convention bump. An oxymoron: compassionate conservative.
52 Peter : I'm afraid N863DA is right about that. You are becoming a little extreme.
53 Post contains images CstarU : If not given a choice to abstain (on some), who/what would you choose: A) Ralph Nader B) Pat Buchanan A) Ted Kennedy B) Jesse Helms A) Al Sharpton B)
54 TWFirst : Brilliant.
55 Post contains images Surf : Those lines about Monica/Linda and CNN/Fox News had me laughing out loud...
56 Post contains images CstarU : Thanks...I'm still trying to reclaim my empire
57 Post contains images TWFirst : You commie pinko leftist Burkina Faso..ites(?) Fasoans? Fascists? are always trying to start trouble here in the good old U. S. of A. Why don't you go
58 CstarU : I'm actually from Central African Empire, now Republic...Burkina Faso is only my exile country (my Elba, I'm Nappy's re-incarnation you know). Sorry,
59 Post contains images 777YYC : This has turned into a pretty good thread. I'm sorry if my comments sounded a bit harsh. I don't get the chance to take part in political debates very
60 Post contains images Jonnyboy : Anyone here been a poor American? Had the unavoidable luck of being born into a poor family? Not been able to have the same opportunities as others, b
61 Matt D : I read with much glee all of the anti-Matt sentiment that has been flowing on this thread. Let me see if I got this straight..... many of you agree wi
62 CstarU : nice psycho-babel...
63 Surf : Matt D, you are sexy. How big is your dick, and can I suck it?
64 Cwapilot : Well, I wasn't aware that the sun shines out of your arse, I apologize. If you think this whole thing is about winning fans and feeding ego trips, you
65 CstarU : CWApilot Peggy Noonan must be gleaming with pride...
66 Ctbarnes : I find it interesting to see that people are in favor of free speech and open debate-unless of course someone takes a position you don't agree with. P
67 Anzff : The true strength of a democracy or a society in general is its ability to withstand, tolerate and even encourage disparate views within it. And the i
68 TWFirst : As I said in an earlier post, I think it's fascinating to learn about people and their background, and how people have become what they are. Now that
69 TW924 : Yea and for all you in NY lets get this witch hillary out of NY! And for the americans lets get this crook gore and his pal liberman out of here!
70 TWFirst : And, how exactly are you going to do that considering you're too young to vote??? I'd be curious to read how you've developed your opinions about Amer
71 TW924 : No actually I know enough about american politics to know hillary is a stinkin lefty, shes had no experience in an important position(she claims to ha
72 CstarU : Wow, 14 posts in three hours. Anyway, your retort TWFirst...I'm taking a pass. BTW, are guys related---like Carville & Matalin.
73 N863DA : Let's just jump in at the deep end. TW924... you really need to grow up. Before you yell at me and call me a communist, I can assure you I am not... i
74 Lax2000 : What casting agency did the Republican party use for hiring Blacks and Latinos to appear at the convention? I'm having a party, and I want it to look
75 Post contains images N863DA : TW924; How did you do by the way on your TOEFL exam? What was your score? Maybe you could consider taking the exam again. I strongly recommend it. FLY
76 TWFirst : Thanks Ben & CstarU. Was away for awhile. I laughed my butt off when I came back and read TW924's response. What's really funny is anyone calling Gore
77 CstarU : TW924, Don't believe them, an oxymoron is a moron with acne.
78 TWFirst : Ex-cuh-USE ME Mr. former Burkina Faso emperor (BTW, why did you change your user profile?), but I recently got suckered in by my sister in law to try
79 Texairport : I watched Gore's speech last night with as much open-mindedness as I could muster, but came away thoroughly unimpressed and deciding I did not want th
80 Post contains images NKP S2 : Well, one thing's for certain: Mr CwaPilot sure has his head screwed on straight...Your arguments are as eloquent as they are logical and STAY ON MESS
81 CstarU : It was getting old and was looking for a another interesting character. Check out my new profile. What do you think? I'm centrist on fiscal and defens
82 TWFirst : I always suspected you didn't die! But rather faked your death so you could steal all of your followers' Nikes. Just read your response in the other f
83 Post contains images CstarU : Got it...had to take an extra toke though. If George W. was with me it would've been an extra line. Nothing significant. I just like oddballs and his
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