Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
US Conservatives: Please Get "Socialism" Right  
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8724 posts, RR: 43
Posted (9 years 9 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1326 times:

Hello everyone,

some members of this forum have started a trend that I consider worrying, if not alarming: almost every time someone says something good about, for example, Canada or expresses his dislike for US-style capitalism, he is called a "socialist" or his country is called a "socialist country", as opposed to the supposed one and only capitalist country on Earth, the United States of America.

Please think twice about this in the future: There are no socialist countries on this planet, and you can stop calling Canada or Germany or whatever country one. Socialism has proven that it cannot work in a human society, nicely demonstrated by two countries that claim to be socialist but are nothing but dictatorships: Cuba and North Korea. Additionally, don't forget that even the "National Socialists" claimed to be just that - socialists.

What are the main ingredients for socialism? Since the problem I'm referring to is mostly people talking about economies, let's single out socialist economic policies. They include a widely planned economy, as opposed to any kind of market economy; remember those "five-year plans" that the GDR and others miraculously managed to over-accomplish every single time? Further, they include an absence of capitalist structures such as public limited companies/corporations; instead of that, industries are state-owned - or "people-owned", as governments wanted to make people believe. Without either of these two components, and there are of course others, an economy is not socialist. I know I'm a bit oversimplifying, but it's for the sake of keeping this readable.

Getting to my key argument: if a socialist economy includes state-owned businesses and a planned economy, how are Canada or any EU countries socialist? Arguing they are is simply futile, socialised healthcare for the not-so-rich as we have it in Germany may be a socialist idea, but healthcare alone does not make any country socialist. For example, almost all medical practices in Germany are privately owned businesses, not state-run healthcare centres.
The same goes for social security: it is a (most often) state-run way to keep unemployed people alive and well; maybe that doesn't go well with Social Darwinism, but it goes along well with civilisation.

EU countries and Canada may have actualised more socialist ideas than the US, but we do not have planned economies, we do have market economies and we do not think all businesses should be "owned by the people". And we are definitely not heading in the direction of actualising more socialist ideas, much to the contrary.

Just one favour: Please think twice the next time you plan on calling anything "socialist". Chances are it's not. I don't have a problem with the US being much more capitalist than my country, I have a problem with my country being called "socialist" because it isn't. Seems like the word "socialism" went the same way as "liberal".

best regards
aloges


PS: Here are some examples of what I'm talking about, I just searched the forum for "socialism" and "socialist".

reply 37: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/702449/
reply 1: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/702666/
reply 2: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/704942/
reply 43: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/704250/


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
7 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 1, posted (9 years 9 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1315 times:

State owned is "people" owned?

Jesus, doesn't anyone read Orwell anymore? Just google "newspeak" and see what I mean.

You want a "people owned" company try Microsoft. Hey, I even own some of that.

The biggest lie being spread today is that the Government of any country you care to name is "the people" of that country.

I'll agree that pure socialism does not exist, but neither does pure capitalism. So the trends in Canada for one example are more socialistic than is tolerable to most in the US. It is the suspicion of most of us that those who are most interested in government safety nets are those who know they will carry less than their share of the load, those who will milk the system for all they can.

Whatever doctrine you care to name does not, and probably could not exist in its pure form.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (9 years 9 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1299 times:

Algoes, the problem with your explanation is that you present it as a black and white definition, a country is either socialist or it isn't, it is either pregnant or it isn't.

That is one I don't agree with. Every country has different levels of economic socialism, from your state owned companies, or sectors within an economy. And even in a country, different economic policies can effect the level of socialism. Remember starting in the late 1970's and 1980's many countries de-nationalized many of their industries. And in many countries, many regions have different levels of socalisim.

Just keep in mind when a US member mentions socialisim, the comparison is with the US economy, and it could be argued that with the exception of Chile and a few others, there are few economies that are less socialist then ours.




OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1269 times:

The government is "technically" state owned, we pay the taxes that buys everything and pays the politicians  Laugh out loud

The most interesting thing I found when I first learned of the Communist/Socialist society is the idea that everything is big government control (i.e. healthcare, etc), but in the end in a perfect Communist society, the goverment suddenly becomes a non-event, and the country is run by the people with no government (maybe I got this wrong, it's been awhile since I took a politics course)

DeltaGuy



User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8724 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1256 times:

"State owned is "people" owned?"

Honestly, which part of "as governments wanted to make people believe" was so hard to understand?

L-188, I got your point and you're not wrong. However, it's not me who came up with calling anyone "socialist", it's other people. I simply wanted to point out that e.g. Canada is not a socialist country, but that they've actualised a few more socialist ideas than e.g. the US. And if my memory isn't playing some nasty tricks on me, that's just what I wrote. More socialist ideas in Canada (or Germany, for that matter) than in the US, yes, a socialist country, no.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (9 years 9 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1240 times:

For the far-right conservatives, anything they don't agree with is either terrorism, socialism or communism (yeah, that's right, the big "C" word is still being thrown around once in a while). It's so easy:
- You're opposed to the war in Iraq, then you're a terrorist huger;
- You want public healthcare, then you're a socialist;
- You want gun control; then for sure you're a commie.

They feel that by throwing these epithets, they feel relieved from having to think by themselves 5 minutes or so.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1164 times:

Yeah that summs it up about right QB001, particularly the comments about gun control.


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineUsatoeze From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 358 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1137 times:

For the far-right conservatives, anything they don't agree with is either terrorism, socialism or communism (yeah, that's right, the big "C" word is still being thrown around once in a while). It's so easy:
- You're opposed to the war in Iraq, then you're a terrorist huger;
- You want public healthcare, then you're a socialist;
- You want gun control; then for sure you're a commie.

They feel that by throwing these epithets, they feel relieved from having to think by themselves 5 minutes or so.


YES and it works the opposite when well meaning right-wing people discuss their thoughts here or anywhere else with far left wing radicals. This is not anything that has to do with conservative or liberal, socialist or capitalist. Instead it is human nature for people (Left wing and Right wing) to feel relieved (As you stated) from having to think by themselves for 5 minutes or so. It is not simply a right-wing mold.


Aloges,

I really liked your post because you took the time to write some very intelligent thoughts in this forum which usually offers very little in terms of intelligent thoughts. I just wanted to point out that some of us grow up in areas of the world that we want for very little from our governments, while others grow up where they have a lot of services provided by their governments. Neither are necessarily wrong nor right, but to some the other complete opposite idea can seem to be a foreign idea. In my travels all over this wonderful Earth I have heard many people outside of my own country(USA) tell me a lot of stereoypical ideas about my country that they thought were facts and were really not true at all; and at the same time I have heard many Americans stereotype (Those that realize other countries exist) other countries while really knowing almost nothing at all. This is the same with the terms Socialism and Capitalism. In parts of the world Capitalism is associated with horrible things, and in other parts of the world Socialism is associated with bad things. The part of the world where Socialism is associated this way is mostly in the USA. Many in this forum come from the USA..and hence the association. I can assure you that Capitalism is often misrepresented and viewed with the same general attitudes elsewhere. So I can clearly understand your frustrations....and I appreciate you taking the time to post very critical and intelligent thoughts.


Cheers,

Brad



War is a very poor political tool
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Bar In The Movie "the Right Stuff", "Armageddon"? posted Sat Nov 11 2006 21:34:21 by Aerosol
Indonesia "Thanks For The Help, Now Get Out" posted Thu Jan 13 2005 13:28:45 by Galaxy5
How To Get An "A" On A Chemistry Mid-term posted Sun Nov 14 2004 00:21:45 by Techrep
The "Can't We All Just Get Along?" Thread posted Thu Nov 4 2004 02:32:02 by EA CO AS
*sob* I Cant Get Into "Do We Want The Euro In The posted Mon May 3 2004 18:36:34 by Pilot kaz
"buy One Get Free" Crap posted Thu Mar 11 2004 03:05:12 by Lehpron
"Onion" Was Right About Dubya Two Years Ago posted Thu Mar 27 2003 18:32:54 by Airworthy
"You Gas Us, We'll Nuke You"! posted Wed Dec 11 2002 15:18:57 by KaiTakFan
Any Of You Ever Tried To Get On "Millionaire"? posted Fri Apr 27 2001 09:05:13 by LAX
Rent A Car In The US - How To Get The Best Deal? posted Thu Aug 24 2006 15:29:42 by L410Turbolet