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$1 Billion In Aid Pledged WOW! Big Deal!  
User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2126 times:

The time: 0526 local (0126Z).
The date: 26 December 2003
The place: Bam, Iran
The event: An earthquake registering 6.6 on the Richter scale hits the historic city and flattens 70% of the modern part of the city and also historic sites dating back thousands of years. 26,000 people are killed. 30,000-50,000 are injured. 75,000 out of a city of 120,000 are left homeless. The world community touched by the tragedy promises Iran it's support and help. Aid teams from around the world, and from as far afield as Australia, and also from the US, are dispatched to Bam to help. Many nations, mainly richer 'western' nations also pledge over US$1 billion in aid to help to rebuild Bam.

The time: 0758 local (0058Z)
The date: 26 December 2004
The place: off the northern coast of Sumatra, Indonesia
The event: An underwater earthquake registering 9.0 on the Richter scale hit off the coast of Sumatra, causing a tsunami hitting several countries and killing at least 150,000 and leaving millions homeless. The world community touched by the tragedy promises the region its support and help. Aid teams from around the world are dispatched to several countries to help. Many nations, with many richer 'western' nations pledge over US$500 million in aid to help the various countries in the region.

The time: 0458 local (0058Z)
The date: 26 December 2004
The place: Bam, Iran
The event: It is less than less 30 minutes until one year to the day after the devastating earthquake in the city. Many of the 75,000 homeless are still homeless. Many are living in tents. Many of the homeless lack basic amenities such as running water and electricity. People from all over Iran have converged on Bam to remember the 30,000 fellow citizens who died in that quake.

The time: unknown
The date: 27 December 2004
The place: New York?
The event: UN Undersecretary Jan Egeland states: "We were more generous when we were less rich, many of the rich countries............And it is beyond me, why are we so stingy, really. ... Even Christmas time should remind many Western countries at least how rich we have become.". This comment directed towards the rich 'western' nations got a swift rebuke from the US who thought the comment was directed towards them. After the Egeland statement, the US increases their initial $15 million 'pledge' to $35 million -- which has since been raised to $350 million. Aid from all nations now stands at over US$1 billion.

Why have I mentioned Bam above? The reason is very simple.

These nations which are pledging money to recent disasters are treating it as if it was a telethon. You ring in and tell them you will donate $1,000 towards their cause, but if they read your name out on TV you will double your pledge. This is what the richer nations did in Bam -- when the pressure was on they pledged to their hearts were content. But like the telethon, when it actually came to time to give the money they had pledged, either the money pledged was not given or very little was given. As I say, it was just for publicity to show others what you had donated. And this is true, because one year after the Bam disaster, out of over $1 billion pledged by western nations, a stingy amount of only $17 million has actually been handed over. A huge 1.7% of what was pledged was given. Where is the other $983 million? And why has it not been handed over to the people of Bam who were promised it? It hasn't really been mentioned widely in the western media, which has indoctrinated us to have the attention span of a fruit fly, so the publics attention was quickly diverted by some other trivial matter come 2004. This of course was welcomed by the governments who pledged money who no longer had to worry about being held to task for them not handing over their pledged aid.

So are we to expect something like this:

The time: 0758 local (0058Z)
The date: 26 December 2005
The place: Indonesia, Thailand, Sri Lanka, Maldives, etc
The event: The people of the region gather to remember the 100s of thousands killed. They think about why they are still homeless. They think about why they do not have basic amenities. They wonder why all of those nations which pledged this aid have only turned over 1.7% of what they were promised.

The 'west' is saying that they will not let this happen. But the proof is in the pudding. They deserted the people of Bam before you could even say Happy New Year 2004.

This is why I strongly believe that Egeland's comments were warranted to the rich western nations who, as he said, have not given as much in recent years. Remember, it is one thing to pledge all this money (talk the talk), but it is another thing entirely to actually hand the money over (walk the walk).

Note, this is not a post anti- any country in particular. (This should stop certain comments dead in their tracks). It is a post anti- those countries which publicly promised aid to the residents of Bam but who reneged on their word. Anyone have any idea of what governments promised money to the Bam relief appeal and what they promised, and what governments handed over money and how much? Possibly with this information, we could use this to ascertain how much of the promised 'tsunami' aid will actually be paid out by those who pledged money for both disasters. Or will they have learned their 'lesson' -- whatever the hell that might be.

[Edited 2005-01-01 12:20:55]

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24927 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2103 times:

Note, this is not a post anti- any country in particular.

Bollocks...  Yeah sure



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2091 times:

Bollocks Gkirk? Funny. Because neither you or I know what countries pledged what money to the Bam relief, nor do either of us know what countries who had pledged actually handed over the money. So how could my post be against any particular country, when we don't even know what countries make up that list. So, you know what is bollocks? Your bollocks comment. Got anything to add which actually addresses the crux of the post?

User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2029 times:

Russophile . . .having read your posts over the last week regarding this tragedy, I'm quite sure you wouldn't be satisfied with any amount of aide. One billion or twenty billion, I think you just can't be pleased.

User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5694 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2005 times:

ANCFlyer,
you missed Russo's point completely.
He's pointing out to the striking difference between promises and reality. When the disaster is making the headlines the governments need to "look good" and hey, it easy to double, triple, quadrouple the amount pledged as long as the PR is good!

The sad thing is, that if the people in Bam, Iran did not get the promised help by now, they will never get it. It's a year-old story and who still cares or even remembers???

It sure would be worth asking our respective governments in December 2005 how much they lived up to their verbal promises!?


User currently offlineTsv From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 1641 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1989 times:

"... one year after the Bam disaster, out of over $1 billion pledged by western nations, a stingy amount of only $17 million has actually been handed over."

Source?



"I told you I was ill ..." Spike Milligan
User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1917 times:

Alls I got to say to this.....

Which foreign country helped us when we were sorting out the ruins of 9/11? (Canada, yes).

And....which country helped us clean up after Hurricane Charley, Frances, Jeanne, and Ivan?.....NOONE...I live down here, I know this well.

People are quick to accuse the US of being stingy, but in reality, we're under no obligation whatsoever to help...in fact, we almost shouldn't, seeing as most countries couldn't give a damn about us.

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8702 posts, RR: 43
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1910 times:

"People are quick to accuse the US of being stingy, but in reality, we're under no obligation whatsoever to help...in fact, we almost shouldn't, seeing as most countries couldn't give a damn about us."

GOOOOD, then why should you "help" other countries by "bringing them democracy and freedom"?  Yeah sure

The point is that a lot of Americans claim to be citizens of the greatest, most powerful, most generous and, first of all, most important country that ever graced this planet with its existance. The "generous" part got proven when many Americans sent CARE packages to Europe after WW2, for instance. But every time the US might just be criticised along with other nations, like Russophile did this time, many Americans feel defensive as if someone had just declared war on you. Please try to imagine, for a change, that criticism does not equal hatred but is a fundation of democracy and also friendship/partnership.

Edit: I might add that neither Charley, Frances, Jeanne nor Ivan killed hundreds of thousands of people. THAT is what matters, not if people lose houses and cars that can be rebuilt and paid for by insurance companies. Oh, and lots of people in India, Sri Lanka, Thailand, Indonesia etc. can't even afford insurance for anything, so they're a tad more in need of money than insured Europeans or Americans.

Plus: Who offered "unconfined solidarity" to the American people after 9/11? I seem to remember it was Gerhard Schröder, that "ungrateful bastard" of a chancellor whose country is helping out in Afghanistan and in the "War on Terror", but chose to not follow the Bush admin into its Iraqi nightmare of a wargame adventure.  Pissed

Get your facts straight before you accuse others of anything.

[Edited 2005-01-01 19:34:55]


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1905 times:

L410Turbolet you missed Russo's point completely.

Oh, no I didn't . . . I thoroughly understand his point. As my post said, reading this post and smoe of his others on this situation, I don't believe he'd have been happy with $10 Billion . . . . he's not alone.

I will concur however, that the folks making the pledge had better put their money where their mouth is, so to speak. Get the job done as promised.


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5694 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1883 times:

DeltaGuy,
did anyone (besides your paranoid self) mention the US???  Nuts  Nuts  Nuts


User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1850 times:

TSV, on 24/25 December, Mohammad Khatami revealed this information either during a visit to Bam or before the visit. It has been reported by a few outlets, such as:

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=11294

Other reports state that almost $0.5 billion has so far been spent on the Bam cleanup and 'rehabilitation', nearly all of which has come from Iranian govt coffers.

ANCflyer, I would be content with an amount which I know these governments can afford, and so long as they hand it over as they pledge (promise). $17 million out of $1 billion. Am I content? Bloody oath I am not. It is disgusting. I do not want to see aid amounts being enough so that all people will soon be driving around in BMWs, but amounts that will satisfactorily address the reconstruction and rehabilitation effort. Is $350 million from the US enough? Probably not. But it's better than $35 million. Is $500 million from Japan enough? Probably not, but it's better than $50 million. Is $70 million from Australia enough? Probably not, but it's better than $7 million.

Iran actually had to resort to a World Bank loan of approx. US$220 million so that they could continue to cover the amounts that they were stiffed by other countries. This is not what was promised to them.


User currently offlineAir2gxs From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1825 times:

I'm not sure how much it costs to operate a US aircraft carrier and its battle group but one (USS Abraham Lincoln) just parked off the coast of Sumatra and began relief operations.

There is another group (USS Bonhomme Richard, Marine amphibious assualt ship) headed to the Sri Lankan coast for relief efforts. I believe if anyone crunches the numbers, the US has already passed its pledge of $350 million. That just in operating costs.

There is more to relief than actual dollars, euros, yen, etc.


User currently offlineStowAway From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 640 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1819 times:

Air2gxs, that is a very good point. You kind of never think about the operating cost of those ships! I saw a special one time, and it takes millions a day to operate one of those bad boys.


A monkey's ass always talks crap.
User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1806 times:

Source?

TSV, in addition to Russophile's Lebanese source, here's a couple of Western ones, which talk about both Iran and Africa.

Here's one from the New York Times:
Making things worse, we often pledge more money than we actually deliver. Victims of the earthquake in Bam, Iran, a year ago are still living in tents because aid, including ours, has not materialized in the amounts pledged. And back in 2002, Mr. Bush announced his Millennium Challenge account to give African countries development assistance of up to $5 billion a year, but the account has yet to disburse a single dollar.

And one from the Guardian:
Britain has yet to confront honestly the scale of its own dysfunctional inequality. Labour still has not found a language of redistribution and fairness that it dares to use when talking to voters. In public, both Tony Blair and Gordon Brown are at ease with the language of global injustice, but not with talking about domestic poverty. "Africa", in Blair's speeches, is a noble cause more than a real place, sanitised by distance. The fewer details he sees, the easier it is to express the "scar" on our conscience. Brown attacks debt abroad, yet debt at astronomic interest rates still cripples poor families here.


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5694 posts, RR: 18
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1791 times:

I'm not sure how much it costs to operate a US aircraft carrier and its battle group but one (USS Abraham Lincoln) just parked off the coast of Sumatra and began relief operations.
....
Air2gxs, that is a very good point. You kind of never think about the operating cost of those ships! I saw a special one time, and it takes millions a day to operate one of those bad boys.


hmm interesting, I see... Perhaps you might want to elaborate HOW the fact that the aircraft carrier's crew of several thousand eats so many hamburgers and amortization of dozen or so fighter jets on the flight deck for a given period of time on-site cost certain amount of dollars helps the people on the ground?
I don't want to turn it into yet another anti-US thread (there's plenty of them) but since you chose to single yourselves out although, once again, no one mentioned the US in the first place
The fact that someone (Bush, Rumsfeld?) decided to send there a whole navy to help with natural disaster is OK - I'm not an expert to say whether or not this is the best way to do it, but arguing that because it's expensive to operate these things (the taxpayer pays for operating these "toys" regardless whether they are in Japan, Indonesia or Hawaii, does he/she not?) and count these costs towards "help" is lame, cynical and you just set yourself for more unnecessary bashing.



User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1780 times:

L410Turbolet: Perhaps you might want to elaborate HOW the fact that the aircraft carrier's crew of several thousand eats so many hamburgers and amortization of dozen or so fighter jets on the flight deck for a given period of time on-site cost certain amount of dollars helps the people on the ground?
The Lincoln and her "Strike Group" and the Bohomme Richard and her Task Group are there because of the expertise and facilities within the fleet. Think out of the little box your mind is in . . .

Water desalinisation/purification facilities, state of the art medical facilities, a mobile resupply platform, command and control platform, helicopter support platforms to run supplies to cut off villages and towns, satellite downlink capabilities that can assist in restoring communication. I'm sure there are more, but hey, I was Army not Navy, some Squid jump in here and help me out.




User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5694 posts, RR: 18
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1767 times:

ANCFlyer,
there's no discussion that the ships have many very useful and unique resources.
My point was merely that if everyone would start counting broadly associated costs (i.e. the hamburgers) with delivering the aid as aid itself you'd see the amount in EUR, USD whatever skyrocket, yet the effect would not materialize.


[Edited 2005-01-02 00:10:11]

User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1761 times:

L410Turbolet . . .Agreed. Aggregate costs should not be factored in . . . direct costs only.

User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1708 times:

Is it me, but reading media outlets online, and watching on TV, it seems as if there's almost a race on to see what nation or group is raising the most at any given time. The report that Japan has topped the U.S.'s $350 million (so far) in aid.

It's almost like a freaking circus, and it's really making me sick to my stomach. WHO CARES!! Again, let's see what THE WORLD can do for these people. Let's celebrate when we get to $5 billion, and aid and volunteers are pouring into the area's most devistated to make life at least tolerable for thse people.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 968 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1696 times:

And back in 2002, Mr. Bush announced his Millennium Challenge account to give African countries development assistance of up to $5 billion a year, but the account has yet to disburse a single dollar.

You must recognize that while Bush can pledge a certain amount, but if the U.S. Senate does not approve it, the money goes no where. Bush can't spend a penny of tax payer money without direct consent from the U.S. Senate Appropriations Committee. Ask Regan... it can be a bitch. Half the time the Senate just sends money to overbudget local projects.

Where is the other $983 million?

Probably in the hands of the relief agencies the money was funneled through. If I remember correctly, the Iranian government would only accept international aide through reflief organizations of their choosing. I doubt the money was embezzled or anything, but Iran wasn't exactly accepting every single effort to help sent it's way.... besides, Iran can go to hell for all I care.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12102 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1684 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

All the money that countrys give to aid, even if its $5 or even $1 billion means alot to the country that is receiving it.

User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8702 posts, RR: 43
Reply 21, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1673 times:

"Probably in the hands of the relief agencies the money was funneled through. If I remember correctly, the Iranian government would only accept international aide through reflief organizations of their choosing. I doubt the money was embezzled or anything, but Iran wasn't exactly accepting every single effort to help sent it's way..."

You're not seriously suggesting that any relief agency would have the balls to keep 98.3% of the money given to it, are you?

"besides, Iran can go to hell for all I care."

In that case, the part of the US that statement represents can go to hell for all I care.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1619 times:

Probably in the hands of the relief agencies the money was funneled through.

If it was funnelled through relief agencies, you would not have a situation whereby most of those made homeless over a year ago are still homeless and without basic amenities today. You also would not have a situation where those very relief agencies are crying out for assistance. The relief agencies are working mainly on funds which have been donated by private citizens for the relief effort, and also (going by reports) using funds from their other programs.

I doubt the money was embezzled or anything, but Iran wasn't exactly accepting every single effort to help sent it's way

Again, Iran accepted all help which was offered to it -- except for Israeli offers. All other help was accepted.

.... besides, Iran can go to hell for all I care.

There's a concept in Buddhism called karmic retribution. I'd suggest you learn about it.

But still there are no answers provided to the pertinent questions. Not that I am expecting forum members to give them if they don't have them. But it does make it interesting, as normally to find such answers you would go to the websites of the various government aid agencies of different countries, and it would be easy to find. But it isn't. It seems most mention of Bam even existing in the first place has been removed.

L410Turbolet and ANCFlyer, I know what you guys are saying. Costs shouldn't be factored in at all, at least not in the way that some might think. You can't have a country offering another nation aid of $1 billion, but then turning around and saying that it is going to cost $1.2 billion for them to deliver that aid so they won't give anything. Any costs of delivery should be taken into account when announcing the 'final' figure.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17439 posts, RR: 46
Reply 23, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1584 times:

"There's a concept in Buddhism called karmic retribution. I'd suggest you learn about it."

There's a concept in Iran called "Kill all Americans".



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8702 posts, RR: 43
Reply 24, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1581 times:

"There's a concept in Iran called 'Kill all Americans'."

And there seems to be a concept in conservative circles called "repeat all the bullshit you believe in over and over so at least some people will start believing it".

If the entire Iranian people is out to kill all Americans it can reach, then why are we not seeing millions of Iranians running around everywhere, asking people about their citizenship and killing all who reply "American"? I tell you why: because most Iranians can't be arsed to go and kill anyone, but the longer they're called terrorists or just names, the more of them will start thinking about it.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
25 MaverickM11 : ""repeat all the bullshit you believe in over and over so at least some people will start believing it". " Just repeating what the Iranian government
26 Post contains images Aloges : "Just repeating what the Iranian government says...while their own people demonstrate in opposition and writhe in poverty and corruption." Forgetting
27 Sabena332 : There's a concept in Iran called "Kill all Americans". Utter rubbish! One and a half months ago I transited at THR airport on my way to BKK and two we
28 Solarix : Russophile you wonder why many in Bam are still homeless? Again, Iran accepted all help which was offered to it -- except for Israeli offers. All othe
29 Post contains images Russophile : Solarix, you know what the problem with opinions are. They're like arseholes. Everyone has one. So, do we understand you correctly, that the reason th
30 Air2gxs : "L410Turbolet . . .Agreed. Aggregate costs should not be factored in . . . direct costs only" I disagree, the economist in me and the taxpayer in me s
31 Mandala499 : L410Turbolet: Perhaps you might want to elaborate HOW the fact that the aircraft carrier's crew of several thousand eats so many hamburgers and amorti
32 Post contains images RayChuang : There is one thing that really bothers me about the amounts pledged for relief efforts: where is the money from the American entertainment industry? I
33 Jasepl : There is one thing that really bothers me about the amounts pledged for relief efforts: where is the money from the American entertainment industry? T
34 Logan22L : In this complicated world, there are no simple solutions. The tsunamis killed many Muslims who hate Americans, many Muslims who do not hate Americans,
35 Mandala499 : Logan... As an American, I was deeply offended by the scenes of local Indonesians dancing in the street and revelling like it was Mardi Gras in the af
36 Post contains links Jasepl : Mandala's exactly right John. Just as we will continue to hear in the media about the generosity the vast majority of Americans have demonstrated duri
37 Logan22L : Hey Madala499 and Jase: I know, I was trying to say that the scenes we saw certainly did not represent all the people's feelings. As with any news sto
38 Dc10guy : As a proud red blooded American I can say with pride ...Who Cares. Let'em die. There is no oil there.
39 Catatonic : I often wonder, should such an event happen here in the UK how many Asian countries would come to our aid?
40 Wietse : You guys are all missing the point here. We help them because they cannot help themselves in this situation. They do not have the wealth or means to s
41 Dc10guy : Let'em starve ... Enough said.
42 Wietse : Let'em starve ... Enough said. Are you some sort of morbid commedian, or do you mean this bullshit?
43 Post contains links Jasepl : Here, take a look at this. It should shut you up: http://img145.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img145&image=ruumiita4ft.jpg Thanks to Mandala for the link.
44 Yukimizake : "As a proud red blooded American I can say with pride ...Who Cares. Let'em die. There is no oil there." "Let'em starve ... Enough said." To answer the
45 Solarix : dc10guy, that is disgusting.
46 Dc10guy : There is no oil there. Why should we spend any money. It makes no sense.
47 Qantas077 : Jaspel i'd not seen that image before, it's horrific to say the least! why the post's by DC10guy have not been deleted i'll never know. :S
48 Solarix : Maybe because the US is not just after the "oil" like you think it is.
49 Jasepl : 077, I don't know why they haven't been deleted. Honestly, I don't really even care. He's clearly got way too much time on his hands and he's just try
50 DL021 : Guys...quit being goaded by dc-10guy....he is playing some mind game to make a point. I think that he is trying to make his opinion into a point that
51 Dc10guy : DL021, What are you smoking dude ??? Why should our great country plunge itself further into debt for no return gain ??? We didn't save anyone in Rwan
52 Post contains images Mandala499 : Logan, That's the media for you... can't live with them, can't live without them. DC10guy: As a proud red blooded American I can say with pride ...Who
53 Post contains links Russophile : Anyway, back on topic. Kofi Annan has gone on the record about the amount of aid being pledged. Surprise, surprise http://makeashorterlink.com/?B28942
54 MaverickM11 : "Let's hope the UN does hold those pledging to live up to their word." Wouldn't that be the mother of all ironies...the UN making other people live up
55 MaverickM11 : "Guys...quit being goaded by dc-10guy....he is playing some mind game to make a point." You're giving him waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too m
56 Yukimizake : "You're giving him waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much credit." I agree, we're talking about a guy called 'Bubba' here.
57 Jasepl : Per AFP, John Howard's announced an 'historic' aid contribution of A$1b for Indonesia. The Commonwealth's pledge now puts Australia in first place, wi
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