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The Pony Car: Dying Breed?  
User currently offlineTristarenvy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2265 posts, RR: 3
Posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3172 times:

Let's chat about the class of car the much discussed Mustang started.

On a day in April 1964, Ford Motor Company gave birth to a car that captured the heart and mind of the US. An affordable car, that was classy, fun, and easily customized by it's owner. Want a V-8? Got several! Vinyl tops? You bet, name the color! Stick or automatic? You decide!

There was really nothing like it, at the time. Sporty, and cheap, that you could haul the family around in, and race on Sunday! Most other "sporty" cars were either imports that were not cheap, or practical, like the E-type Jaguar, or big and bloated and pricey, like the Oldsmobile Starfire, or Buick Riviera.

Now, the Plymouth Baracuda beat Mustang to market by a few weeks, but the Mustang was much more popular. So much so, according to historians, the whole class of that type of car was called "PONY CARS" in it's honor.

Along came the competition, like the Camaro, Firebird, and Javelin, trying to cash in on the trend.

Fast forward to 2005. Camaro, Firebird are gone. There are few domestic affordable, and sporty two door coupes on the US market. Dodge Stratus/Chrysler Sebring coupes are dead. Most "performance" cars these days have a Japanese nameplate, and a coffee can sized exhaust.

Mustang stands alone. Probably the last real example of the class it started.



If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40035 posts, RR: 74
Reply 1, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3142 times:

Well the nimrods running General Motors killed the F-body (Camero/Firebird Trans Am) for no reason at all. Hell they were better performers than the Ford Mustang. The Mustang on the other hand has more room and sits a little higher.
Please don't mention the grocery getter boring soccer mom Dodge Stratus. That's not a pony car, or is it?
The Sebring is front drive with only a V6. Not a serious competitor. If GM and Chrysler wanted to seriously compete with the Mustang, they could. They've done it before with lots of success. GM is ran by idiots and rather focus on selling Cadillac Escalades to thugs with gold teeth and H2s to failed jocks.

Chrysler could do it if they wanted. They have suprised my lately with there 300C, Magnum and Crossfire.

The last serious competion to the Mustang at Mopar was the last generation (1976-1980) Dodge Aspen RT and Plymouth Volare Roadrunner Edition. You could get up to a 360cu" V8 up until 1979.
The last serious competitor the Mustang at AMC was the 1980-1983 Eagle SX/4. That was awesome because it was 4 wheel drive.
You could drop a Hornet SC engine in that car (360cu") and smoke most Mustangs. Then continue to haul ass off road. Talk about adding insult to injury.  Smokin cool

The front drive Dodge Daytona and AMC Encore was a joke of competion.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineLtbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13170 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3134 times:

Yes, I agree that except for the Mustang for a nitch demand, the 'pony car' is dead. Many people need a back seat that is suitable for adults, not for midgets or kids and vehicles that allow for more flexibility such as 4 door sedans, mini-vans. Almost all cars today probably perform and handle better than the basic original versions of the Mustang. There is a cycle of fashion too and generational differences. The original Mustang was the car for exploding number of 'baby boomer' young adults who were rejecting their parent's bigger, over chromed, slow sedans. Today the children of that generation want big, go anywhere, ego supporting and (not really) safer SUV's. Also since the 1960's, American designed cars were not as efficient, or reliable as the Japanese cars; they became to be much more on the mark of what people wanted, especially as to reliabilty in the first 3-5 years of a car's life than the USA cars offered. I would also suggest that to the mass public, cars are an appliance, an evil need, not some to be romatic about.

User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40035 posts, RR: 74
Reply 3, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3122 times:

Ltbewr:
Depending on whare you live and lifestyle choice, cars aren't a need. Also with smart urban planning, cars wouldn't necessarily as needed. i see no problem with people being romantic about cars. Look at all the new retro designs coming out today. People like a stylish car that suits there personality. There are many classic car buffs that would totally disagree with your statement.

I'd like to see full-sized convertibles on the market. The only one left is made by Rolls Royce. Most people don't have $375,000 to spend on a car.
It's too bad that Nercury decided not to go forward with teh Marurader Convertible.  Sad
That would have been nice. I am sure there are a lot of people that need a large back seat yet would like to have some top down fun in the sun while driving around town.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3118 times:

I think it's a change in times unfortunately. Back in the 60's and 70's, it was a hot thing...a status symbol...to have a neat car. Sure, old rich farts had Mercedes and Rolls....the teenage/20/young at heart/bachelor crowd flocked to high-displacement high-touque cars. GTO, Le Mans, Camaro, Mustang...Corvette...legendary muscle cars. Stupid emmissions rules weren't in place then, and a 454 engine was on just about every enthusiast's garage..with the straight pipes to back it up. Women loved these things.

Sure, the 1980's was terrible years for the Mustang, Camaro, etc (hell, name a car from the 80's that's still a good car!)...the 90's brought em back into style, and dropped the word mullet from the Camaro family...despite what many members here will tell you...they're idiots anyhow, and probably wish they could afford a fast, American built man's car.

Ford, although I disrespect them greatly, did make some wise choices with the Mustang in the 90's-early millenium..they updated the body style 3 times and provided plenty of special edition models...Cobra, Bullet, Mach 1...stuff muscle heads like. Camaro unfortunately only underwent one update in 1998, and that only changed some headlights/minor exterior parts/added the new LS1 engine. They failed to aggressively market the vehicle as direct competition to the Mustang, failed to upgrade the style enough that the discerning car enthusiast would appreciate.

Therefore, the 2002 model year went out withnot even a bang, but a whimper...thereby handing the pony car market to Ford almost exclusively. Chevrolet claims that the Corvette is it's muscle car...that is, if you have $60G to blow. Next on deck is the new Cobalt SS, a small Cavlier-sized supercharged putt-putt mobile, said to be a competitor for the Mustang.....yeah right....displacement displacement people!!! There is rumor of resurrecting the Camaro line for the 2007/2008 model years, and there are several concepts out thus far...stay tuned sportsfans.

Meanwhile, with the advent of little putt-putt Hondas and Nissans with super-low emission/gas consumption 1.8 engines, people looked more towards senability instead of show. The asian market could make these pieces of junk for pennies on the dollar, but make them reliable enough that people would want them...hence, now it's a Honda meetup at the local burger joint..not a muscle car meetup. Those kids who were issued a $7000 honda by their parents either drove it and put up with it, or became a new breed of sickness...called a ricer....taking a piece-of-shit import car and dressing it up like it's all that, like it can actually go fast. Their little teenage drivers brag about having 100 HP per liter (think, they only get about 160 HP out of em, modded)...but then they cry when someone with 5+ liters spanks them, and their curb weight is almost double that of the import in some cases.

Here is two rough-concept ideas for the new Camaro...the jury is still out on this one, I myself do not believe that Chevy should follow Ford's mistake of going retro....I'm on the fence about these for now though. Good part is, they would have the C6 Corvette standard LS2 engine, BHP of 415 horses Big grin If they would offer it in LeMans blue like the Vette, I'd be a little more wild about it.




Depending on how these come out in the next few years, I may upgrade, sell my 2000 Camaro (or keep, depening on my financial/family situation), and get this one.....if not, it's Corvette for me  Big thumbs up
DeltaGuy


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7554 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3117 times:

I would also suggest that to the mass public, cars are an appliance, an evil need, not some to be romatic about.

Ltbewr,

First and foremost, it's romantic not romatic.

Second, if you applied that your-described logic to planes and aviation; this particular web-site would not exist at all. Just like there's plane and airliner enthusiasts, there are also car enthusiasts out there as well.

Back to the topic at hand, unfortunately, with the aging Baby Boomer market opting for either sedans or SUVs; the share of the pony car market is not what it once was. However, Ford does deserve some kudos for not only keeping the Mustang alive (though it almost died in 1989) but giving it a fresh new look while keeping many of its traditional styling cues.

A modified quote taken from Corporal Ed Sanow's Encyclopedia of American Police Cars as it applies to pony cars.

"We're essentially back to where we were over 30 years ago... Ford, without any real competition"

Edited to add:

Sure, the 1980's was terrible years for the Mustang, Camaro, etc (hell, name a car from the 80's that's still a good car!)...the 90's brought em back into style, and dropped the word mullet from the Camaro family...despite what many members here will tell you...they're idiots anyhow, and probably wish they could afford a fast, American built man's car.

DeltaGuy,

I would not necessarily say that the '80s were terrible years for the Mustang and Camaro/Firebird/Trans Am. Apparently you forgot about the fact that during the 80s, the Ford Mustang was the preferred pony car among many police forces nationwide. The true rebirth of the pony car actually began with the 1982 Mustang GT, I guess you were too young to remember The BOSS is Back! phrase. GM restyled its F-body that same year. With gas prices dropping at the time and President Reagan along with the Senate keeping CAFE and EPA regulations at bay, both the Mustang and Camaro/Firebird/Trans Am were able to improve their performances during that decade. Actually, it was 1989 that Ford that started to back away from continually improving the Mustang's performance for a few years when it pondering on replacing the platform with what later became known as the Probe. Thankfully that change didn't happen, but GM took advantage of the situation and really started to get serious performancewise with their F-body as you being a Camaro guy know very well.

While Ford did finally redo the Mustang in 1994 (the police package was dropped with the restyling), their refusal to offer an engine larger than the 5.0L/302 than later the 4.6L did put them at a performance disadvantage over GM's F-bodies. But I guess, with the change in population demographics along with lack of advertising on GM's end; they saw fit to kill the F-body platform just like they did with the Caprice/Roadmaster/Fleetwood chassis after '96.

[Edited 2005-01-07 00:42:48]


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3407 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3105 times:

I'd like to see full-sized convertible on the market. The only one left is made by Rolls Royce. Most people don't have $375,000 to spend on a car.

Rolls Royce only currently builds the Phantom sedan. However, a convertible based on the 100EX is rumored in the near future.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40035 posts, RR: 74
Reply 7, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3097 times:

DeltaGuy:
Those pictures look like a 1971-1973 Ford Mustang combined with the 1971-1974 AMC Javelin. Did you make that up?
If not, GM really has no direction or originality. The LeMans might comeback as a South Korean build econobox again!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

hell, name a car from the 80's that's still a good car!


The 1987 Chrysler LeBaron Convertible! Big grin
OK, OK, it was a piece of $h!t but it was a beautiful piece of $h!t.  Smokin cool
I still miss that car and I don't know why.
Don't forget the Buick GNX. I also like the early 1980s Mustangs. You could still get plaid seats and an 8track player up until 1983.  Smokin cool



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3089 times:

Superfly,

I definately did not make those little pieces of art...apparently it's some people GM contracted or something to come up with ideas. As we know, GM keeps its new designs under very tight locks until they're ready (at least in my experience)...the new C6 Corvette was very well protected, even doing time trials at the track you couldn't get but the general shape from under the cloaks. I'll wait till I see GM's official word on it  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

The LeMans had better not come back as a Daewoo or some crap like that...I like the new GTO's for the most part, they just need to kick it up a notch and make it look like Pontiac used to do it...before they entered the family car market with the Grand Am/Prix, etc etc....the LS2 engine in next years GTO will make it quite a force to be reckoned with Big grin

Definately not a fan of the LeBarons...2 of my classmates had them, they were always late to school because of some crap that would go wrong with em....and the 80's Stangs were of the same design philosiphy...boxy and 80's looking lol..guess it was sharp back then. Does anyone even play 8tracks anymore?  Big grin

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3407 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3068 times:

and probably wish they could afford a fast, American built man's car.

I'm sure many of them can, considering they are not expensive to begin with combined with steep depreciation, makes them pretty affordable.

but then they cry when someone with 5+ liters spanks them, and their curb weight is almost double that of the import in some cases.

This doesn't prove anything. A heavier 2005 Porsche 911 Carrera S, with less horsepower (321 @ 6800), and less displacement (3596cc) beats a lighter 2005 Corvette with more power (400 hp @ 6000) and more displacement (5967cc) in nearly every performance category.

*source Automobile Mag.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40035 posts, RR: 74
Reply 10, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3063 times:

DeltaGuy:
GM keeps its new designs under very tight locks until they're ready

*Good thing they kept those designs under lock & key for the Cobalt, LaCrosse, Aztec and Aveo!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy





* [dripping with sarcasm]  Smile




Flight152:
Wasn't there a Cornich-like convertible based on the Park Ward?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineLOT767-300ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3045 times:

:"Well the nimrods running General Motors killed the F-body (Camero/Firebird Trans Am) "

God damn it Superfly, spell Camaro right.

"Those kids who were issued a $7000 honda by their parents either drove it and put up with it, or became a new breed of sickness...called a ricer....taking a piece-of-shit import car and dressing it up like it's all that, like it can actually go fast. Their little teenage drivers brag about having 100 HP per liter (think, they only get about 160 HP out of em, modded)...but then they cry when someone with 5+ liters spanks them, and their curb weight is almost double that of the import in some cases."

I am one of the few that has to take care of these morons in the vast Suburbia of Chicago. God when I park next to a IS300, a TSX, 3.2TL S Type, Mitsu 3000, and yes folks even Subaru WRX STI, Mitsu Evo. There is nothing like the face of a 2002 M3 Owner who is 34 years old and gets spanked by a black 96 Impala SS Lingenfelter.

"This doesn't prove anything. A heavier 2005 Porsche 911 Carrera S, with less horsepower (321 @ 6800), and less displacement (3596cc) beats a lighter 2005 Corvette with more power (400 hp @ 6000) and more displacement (5967cc) in nearly every performance category."

1. The Carrera S 2005 has 355@6600.
2. The Carrera S Curb Weight is 3131lbs whereas the Corvette is 3250lbs
3. The Corvette is $45,000 starting the Carrera S is $79,100 starting
4. Considering that the OFFICIAL 1/4s are 12.7s for Vette and 12.6s for the Carrera S thats .1s difference...the Carrera definately is on par with the Vette, but then again there is one thing, for $80k you pay almost twice as much and you still dont have a 6.0L V8. One should note that top speed for Vette is 186mph whereas the S is 180.5mph hehe. MOREOVER the Vette has a better skidpad rating at .98gs against a .97gs. The interior noise at 70mph tested for both is even less in the vette by a decibel, hell its even quieter.

And the final nail in the coffin. The Z51 Coupe vs the Carrera S coupe FUEL ECONOMY. The Corvette is 19/28mpg the Carrera S is 18/26.

Which makes me laugh when one is a 3.8L H6 and the other is a 6L V8 and AMERICAN.

God that fuel economy comment was good...that was a shaft.  Laugh out loud



User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3032 times:

LOT767-300ER kind of finished that one off....no further comment!

Superfly, the secret thing I was referring to was at least in terms of production of the new C6 Corvette...that was pretty well shrouded for awhile, at least in initial production and test runs...not sure how test runs with the Cobalt, Aveo, etc etc went.

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40035 posts, RR: 74
Reply 13, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3031 times:

LOT767-300ER:
Sorry for mis-spelling the name.  Sad
Don't pay much attention to Flight152 in terms of cars. He loves those German cars and I am sure he's been humiliated by fine American muscle automobiles.  Smile



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40035 posts, RR: 74
Reply 14, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3020 times:

DeltaGuy:
No doubt, the new C6 is a force to be wreckon with. I just think that an exotic sports cars should at least have some exotic features such as concealled headlamps.
Making a fast car is one thing, but a 'stylish & unique' fast car takes some creativity.
I'll certainly take a new Corvette, Viper or Ford GT over a Germantrash car in a second!  Smokin cool
Germans should stick with econo-diesels only. The Germans make the best eco-diesels in the world.  Smokin cool



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2472 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3020 times:

"Well the nimrods running General Motors killed the F-body (Camero/Firebird Trans Am) for no reason at all."

Not exactly NO reason, Superfly. Sales were way, way down from the old days, due to a myriad of factors, including high insurance costs, too much competition from front-drive sport coupes like the Eclipse, sales lost to the SUV boom and a more hard-core performance design that appealed to a smaller range of buyers than the softer-edged (non-Cobra models) Mustang.

From a 9/26/01 article: "Camaro sales were down 25% through August, and Firebird sales were down 28%, according to AutoData. Mustang sales were down 12%. The combined sales of 38,564 for Camaro and Firebird were about one-third of Mustang's sales through August."
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2001-09-26-camaro.htm

Perhaps GM's marketing, or lack thereof, was also to blame for low sales. Whatever the cause, the numbers were precipitously down, too low to justify continued production. While you'd think the SS, with most of the Corvette's performance for little over half its price would hang in there with fans as a screaming bargain, too many other factors were apparently at work. The Mustang, although its sales shrank too, was far less affected because it didn't compromise on driver-friendliness as much, being higher; easier to get in and out of and having a better driving position for most people. The GM F-body was too low for so many drivers, like sitting in a bathtub and rear-seat room was also tighter.

"The front drive Dodge Daytona and AMC Encore was a joke of competition."

Okay, maybe the Daytona didn't have the right handling dynamics, being front-drive but the top 224-HP turbo model was fast enough, over 140 mph in tests. You can't be serious about listing the Encore as a ponycar competitor! It was merely a hatchback econobox, the 3 & 5-door version of AMC's subcompact Alliance, the Americanized version of the Renault R9 sedan. Its 1.5 and 1.7 liter fours offered no real "performance" to speak of. The earlier Spirit V-8 'AMX' manual was closer to the mark, however.

"Good thing they kept those designs under lock & key for the Cobalt, LaCrosse, Aztec and Aveo!"

You may be being a bit hard on the Cobalt, although it's somewhat mundane looking. The supercharged sport model is getting some pretty good reviews in Car and Driver, Motor Trend and Road and Track. It seems overall to be a vast improvement over the hopelessly dated, cramped and otherwise lackluster Cavalier. The LaCrosse IS somewhat peculiar in appearance but seems a cut above the all too bland Century it replaces. Nobody cares what the Aveo looks like; it's all about being dirt cheap. No contest on the Aztek, obviously they badly miscalculated on reactions from their focus groups, but the new Torrent to replace it reeks of the old 80s GM cookie-cutter car syndrome, being lifted from the Chevy Equinox with no more distinction than the obligatory Pontiac nose tacked on. At least, the Aztek attempted to stand out, even if the execution was botched. I rather like it, myself. Big grin

"It's too bad that Mercury decided not to go forward with the Marurader Convertible."

What would've been the point of that, Ford screwed up the sedan, anyway? Lacking a V8 with great low-end torque, like the '94-'96 Impala SS that obviously inspired it, plus too high a list price, made the mostly show but little go Marauder a surefire sales dud. It was barely faster than the cheaper 239-HP Crown Victoria LX Sport.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40035 posts, RR: 74
Reply 16, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3015 times:

AvObserver:
I guess I need to include a "  Smile " when I am being sarcastic.
IWe all know darn well the Encore & Fuego was not a serious competitor to the Ford Mustang but according to AMC sales brochures and ads, it was.  Smile


Okay, maybe the Daytona didn't have the right handling dynamics, being front-drive but the top 224-HP turbo model was fast enough, over 140 mph in tests.


Oh I am sure it had the top end performance but wouldn't the driver lose there hearing after driving at that speed in that little 2.2 liter 4-banger?
My 146 HP turbo 1 LeBaron Convertible had a very loud exhaust for such an under-powered car.


Perhaps GM's marketing, or lack thereof, was also to blame for low sales.

That's the MAIN reason sales were low. The last time I saw a Firebird/Trans Am commercial on TV or saw ads in magazines, it was back in 1983 when I was only 10 years old. Product placement in


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineT prop From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1029 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3004 times:

Dying? I hope not, Dodge will be unveiling the new Charger at the North American International Auto show in 3 days.

T prop.



User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7554 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2999 times:

Dying? I hope not, Dodge will be unveiling the new Charger at the North American International Auto show in 3 days.

T prop,

The Charger that you speak of is not considered a pony car. With the same 120 inch wheelbase as the Magnum wagon and Chrysler 300 sedan, it will be Dodge's largest sedan (that's 4 doors instead of 2) offering since the 1977 Royal Monaco.

The legendary Charger mid-size coupes of the '60s & '70s were categorized in what was known as the 'muscle car' groups. Muscle cars performed like pony cars except that they were larger in size.

Other muscle cars include:

Olds 442 (Cutlass platform ONLY)
Pontiac GTO (the ORIGINAL ones from the '60s)
Dodge Charger and its Plymouth clone (some models were called the Road Runner)
Mercury Cyclone
Chevelle SS396
Chevy Monte Carlo SS
Buick Grand National
Ford Torino GT

Other pony cars:

Plymouth Barracuda and its Dodge clone (I forget what it was called, excuse the brain freeze)
Mercury Cougar ('67-'70 or '71)


[Edited 2005-01-07 13:52:59]


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineTristarenvy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2265 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2994 times:

'Fly, careful on knocking the 'Tek! I have one of those screamingly ugly things in my driveway.

It's too bad that, aside from the 'Stang, there really isn't an affordable "sporty" coupe sold here, that's a "domestic" car. I liked the Avenger/Stratus coupes, but they were really Eclipses' on steroids.

One of the reasons for the decline of the sporty two door, in my opinion is the fact that we are getting "bigger". I'm 43, and stand 6', and could stand to drop a couple of pounds. I like being able to "step into" what I drive now, a taller vehicle. I have a friend who owned an Avenger, that would damn near kill me getting into. As the RX-8, a co-worker owns, would do to me as well.



If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7554 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2990 times:

Tristarenvy,

That's one advantage that the mid-size muscle cars had over the smaller pony cars; performance of a pony car but sized to fit the 'average sized' person(s).

The pony car may be a dying breed, but the rear-drive muscle coupes have been non-existent for sometime. The last vehicle that could 'qualify' for such a category would be certain High Output V8 engined 1997 Ford T-Birds/Mercury Cougars. Among GM vehicles, the last vehicle of such caliber would be 1988 Chevy Monte Carlo SS.

That could change if Chevy decides to make a rear-drive successor to the present Monte Carlo.

Edited to add:

Speaking of size (I am not making any fat jokes here, just telling the truth); back in my college days, one employee at the college's academic computer had a Porsche 928. This guy stood about 5'-8" but weighed over 300 pounds. To this day, I am still surprised that this guy was able to fit into his car. He told me that his Porsche did have an automatic transmission. No joke, one day when I saw him pass by me in the parking lot, I looked at the rear of his car only to discover that the driver's side was lower to the ground than the passenger's side.

[Edited 2005-01-07 15:11:10]


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineTristarenvy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2265 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2978 times:

Ha! Good 928 story! Those things will always look like Pacers that were flattened to me. On a side note: Don't those things pretty much self destruct when they get old, due to the amount of aluminum in the body?

I wager a RWD Monte is probably in the cards. GM should spin it into a GTO or something like it. But then, again, the whole point of a "pony car" is affordable. So let Chevy do it.

Saturn should be the perfect division for a true pony. Gotta be RWD, however.

The Scion C would be one, were it not FWD.



If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7554 posts, RR: 23
Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2976 times:

The Scion C would be one, were it not FWD.

It would also need to add a V8 or at least a V6 to the options list as well.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5202 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2965 times:

Every mag has tested the 911 S as quicker than the C6 Vette--if money wasn't an issue I'd go Porsche, otherwise C6 Vette is a winner.


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineCptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2947 times:

Lots of good comments to this topic. I'll add that to make the equation a bit more encompassing, one must realize that lack of update (in GM's case w/ the F-Bodies), and lack of any product at all (in Mopar's case) left FoMoCo as the only game in town. Much of the demise of the F-Cars is attributable to the bottom-feeder tier thinking of "car guys" that don't even understand cars in some of the executive offices. They commonly refer to lagging sales of 2-door vehicles (and specifically the F-Cars) being changing demographics, popularity of SUVs and the like, insurance costs, and ANY other reason in the world EXCEPT taking into consideration that there are still plenty of buyers in the pony-car market who DO know cars and therefore want new styling and performance and the choice of an interior other than septic tank grey.

The F-Cars languished without substantial update because of this barely mediocre talent and vision; "Why do a new car if the current one isn't selling?"
Well, the current car is an aged fossil, and frankly, those buyers that would be interested in such a product, aren't interested in an OLD new product. Notice this thinking has essentially killed the Cadillac ElDorado 2-dr also. Although I have reserved applause (for styling) with the new Mustang, I have heard that my prediction of initial success is pretty much spot on (assembly is currently running 24-7), and I do applaud Ford for the offering. Perhaps continued success will open the eyes of the Grosse Pointe myopians and they will continue development of a new Camaro. Maybe demographics won't support an entire bevey of Pony Cars, but I am convinced that with the right combination of style, performance and price, there is room for an entry from DCX, too.

As far as "muscle cars" go, the GTO is a terrific offering, except the bucks and time for one main ingredient, styling, wasn't there. 16,000 unit sales were predicted, and they moved only about 10,000. Hopefully, the short term thinkers won't point to those numbers as a total failure and drop the offering before they pump some bucks into much-needed sheet metal that genre sorely needs.

One would wish, too, that DCX would have had the restraint to save the Charger nameplate for a shorter wheelbase, 2-dr Hemi platform. I say put some bucks into exciting and common sense product into these markets and success will come a-knocking. God knows we don't need another SUV or Mini-Van to visually clutter up the roadways (shit, do you realize that Porsche is now America's fastest-growing truck company?). Regrads...Jack



all best; jack
25 Delta767300ER : I'm about to leave for work but I have to say I love the concept car pics of the 5th Gen. Camaro that DeltaGuy posted. It sits low and looks extremely
26 Post contains images Flight152 : Flight152: Wasn't there a Cornich-like convertible based on the Park Ward? There might have been, but not anymore, here's a picture of the 100EX conce
27 Post contains images Superfly : Flight152: YIKES! That thing looks awful! Rolls Royce isn't going to go forward with this, are they? I knew Rolls Royce was in trouble when the Germa
28 Flight152 : They aren't building that model, however they will be building a four seat convertible for 2007 inspired from that concept, which was unveiled during
29 Post contains images AvObserver : "We all know darn well the Encore & Fuego was not a serious competitor to the Ford Mustang but according to AMC sales brochures and ads, it was." You
30 Post contains images Superfly : AvObserver: I've already owned BOTH an AMC Gremlin and Pacer. What does that say? That says you had great taste in cars! The AMC Gremlin and Pacers we
31 PHLBOS : PHLBOS: You also for got to mention; Other muscle cars: AMC Rebel Machine Other pony cars: AMC Javelin Superfly, Good catch, I forgot about the Rebel
32 57AZ : Finally got around to getting myself a diecast model of a police Pony car. Don't know what the situation is with the model offered to the general publ
33 Delta767300ER : Speaking of squad cars, I was riding with a Deputy a couple years ago and we hit 140 MPH running full lights and sirens on our way to a Home Invasion.
34 Post contains images AsstChiefMark : Alabama troopers had lots of fun!
35 57AZ : Yep, they will go that fast if need be. One reason that we're now seeing a return to slick tops, aside from the tell tail lightbar, is that the reduce
36 Superfly : San Francisco P.D. still has a lot of the last Cheverolet Caprice Classics. All the others are Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptors. I do see a few
37 Post contains images RayChuang : I think the reason why every pony car except the Mustang are gone is the fact today's cars don't really need big engines anymore to be fast. I mean, l
38 MD-90 : The pony car is NOT a dying breed when even I (pro-Jap reliability, pro-German driving, anti-American build quality) seriously like the new Ford Musta
39 Tristarenvy : Man, don't you love a great car thread... Let's see... AvObserver commented on that long lost Renault gem, the Fuego. Oh man. Had it been better screw
40 Post contains images Superfly : Tristarenvy: Hell lets throw in the Cheverolet Monza and Pontiac Sunbird with the 305cu" V8 and the Ford Mustang II Ghia and King Cobra with the 302c
41 Post contains images Tristarenvy : They fit the bill, Mr. Fly! You were poking around in that "Cars of The Sensational 70's" book, I'm thinking! Add the Olds Starfire/Buick Skyhawk brot
42 Superfly : Tristarenvy: Well my roomate has that Senastional 70's book and he collects car brouchurse. (3500+). I was amazed by that huge fixed glass top offere
43 Tristarenvy : I had friends in college that had all four of that family. A Monza that had a 350 shoved into it, a Sunbird, a glass roofed Buick, and the afore menti
44 57AZ : To answer the question as to whether the Pony is a dying breed, I suppose that one should differentiate between the commercial model and the police mo
45 PHLBOS : I suppose that one should differentiate between the commercial model and the police model. The commercial model is doing well. The police model passed
46 Cptkrell : Word is that Auburn Hills, MI now has Dodge Magnum Hemis on duty w/ the police package discussed several months ago. Perhaps a sister offering could b
47 PHLBOS : According to a Motor Trend magazine article regarding the 2005 cars that came out a few months ago; there is a comment regarding Ford redoing its Crow
48 Tristarenvy : You gotta believe that the "new" big RWD Fords/Merc's/Lincoln will not change too terribly much, style wise. Dearborn probably remembers the hue and c
49 Superfly : Cptkrell & PHILBOS: Sounds like the future could be bright from Detroit. Is there ANYTHING that can be done to stop the Lincoln Mark truck and Zepher?
50 Cptkrell : 'Fly...my sad bet is that we will see the demise of Mercury as a "division" is not far away. Such things happen as the suits that appeal politically f
51 Post contains images Superfly : Cptkrell: EXCELLENT POST! You answered many questions I've had for several years all in one post. BRILLIANT! It's great to know someone who was a maj
52 Captoveur : The best days of the American car are long gone. The Ford Mustang: They have gone back to a classic design, this makes me wonder if this was intention
53 Cptkrell : "Fly, no, I wasn't a major player, more like a fly on the wall (nice entendre, eh?). But I was lucky enough to career with some major players that wer
54 LOT767-300ER : " For less money than it takes to buy a Corvette you can get a BMW M3, a car that will probably perform with the last generation of Vettes, and maybe
55 Post contains links Captoveur : What the flip? If you measure one car in UK Pounds and the other in USD maybe According to the websites, this years corvette has a base price within a
56 PHLBOS : Also, why isn't this Mazda6 based Zepher not going to Mercury or Ford? The new Zephyr platform is based off the upcoming Ford Fusion. I'm not sure if
57 Flight152 : Wow. I agree 100% with Captoveur. Somebody write this down! A few years ago my parents threw in the white flag with American cars. The horrible histor
58 Post contains images DeltaGuy : Being a rice-head is uncool....sure a WRX can do 12 second passes, but it's technically cheating with that Turbo...take it out and try a head/cam job,
59 CaptainGomes : I've never had a ban on a.net, so I might as well go for one now. Deltaguy, you're an idiot.
60 Post contains images DeltaGuy :
61 Post contains images MD-90 : sure a WRX can do 12 second passes, but it's technically cheating with that Turbo Never......does not fit the basic description of a true sportscar...
62 Post contains images DeltaGuy : Haha, that Shelby looks like a big manta ray from the front lol...almost looks like the entire thing is chromed over, I'd be afraid to touch her I sti
63 AvObserver : Thanks, Tristarenvy and I'll likely soon email you on the 'Tek. As for the new Mustang, while it's backward in many ways, much of the old charm is bac
64 Post contains images Superfly : AvObserver: in the northeast, rear-wheel drive, even with traction control, is dicey in a bad winter storm. I think the new 'Stang will be a big winne
65 Tristarenvy : Oh NO! The AMC Eagle coupe! "Out corners Camaro in soft sand!" as the TV spots said. What a great idea. I still think AMC's best fast car was the Grem
66 Post contains images PHLBOS : Why horse around? Given that this is a pony car thread; Good pun there, Superfly! ...I teach a Sunday school class at my church, and was looking at th
67 Tristarenvy : PHLBOS, I think that it's the 14th Commandment (Going by what Moses was carrying in Mel Brooks "History of the World, Part I") Thou Shall Not Covet Th
68 Captoveur : That BMW 3 series as you call it is anything but a plain jane 325. You can make fun of all wheel drive all you want, DeltaGuys RWD Camaro will spin it
69 Bruno : Superfly, those are some whacky cars man! I haven't seen one here in New York in ages.
70 Post contains images AvObserver : "Perhaps you should go to ebay and look for a used but mint condition AMC Eagle SX/4 and drop in the 360cu" V8 from Hornet SC coupe. That way you have
71 Post contains links and images Superfly : AvObserver: Those AMC Eagles are not cheap anymore. I've been paying close attention to ebay for the last 3 years. When ever an Eagle goes on ebay, th
72 Tristarenvy : AV, what I thought was odd about the SX-4 in the book was the fact the artist went out of their way to make it one, and not some generic car, as one w
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