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"Let It Rest"/"Give It Up"  
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1227 times:

Does anybody else have a problem with when people say "Give it up" or "Let it rest" when discussion about the war in Iraq or the 2004 election is brought up? Why is it when people discuss dead civilians in Iraq or the lack of WMD, we're just told to "give it up"? Why is it when people discuss the corruption and disenfranchisement of voters in the 2004 election, we're told to "let it rest"? Why shouldn't it be questioned? Why shouldn't the decisions of our country be questioned?

I personally refuse to be silenced by such comments.

[Edited 2005-01-11 07:57:57]


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5 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMxCtrlr From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2485 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1208 times:

While I agree with you that, to be a true democracy with true freedom of speech, we need to question these things, I also feel that people are getting tired of the rhetoric and just want to escape the topics altogether.

On the subject of the 2004 elections, after 4 years of hearing "Bush stole the election (in 2000)", getting started on 4 years of "Bush stole the election (in 2004)" gets tiresome. If you don't agree with the final outcome of the elction, I agree you should question it. Just remember many people are tired of hearing that same subject over and over and over again and respond "Let it rest".

On Iraq, same thing. It is now painfully obvious to EVERYBODY in the world that Iraq had no active WMD programs going. Whether it was bad intel or a monumental snow job, will probably never be adequately answered to everyone's satisfaction (look at the Kennedy assassination - 41 years after the fact and there are still those who believe - vehemently - that it was a government conspiracy). Again, people are tired of hearing the same thing over and over and over again so they respond "Give it up".

It doesn't make it right or wrong, its just people's feelings on the subject. By finding/not finding WMD's in Iraq, does that bring back ANY of the people killed since the start of hostilities? Absolutely not. Does removing/not removing a brutal dictator from power bring back ANY of the people killed since the start of hostilities? Absolutely not. Would not going to war in Iraq change any radical fundamentalist terrorist's view of America? Absolutely not, so what's the point?

Again, you have your right to question these things (and other government practices as well) and I'm not denying that right (and will defend that right as a fellow American). By the same token, those who say "Let it Rest"/"Give It Up" have those same rights on the other side of the coin. If you support your rights, then you have to support their same rights as well.

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool



DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1195 times:

So true, they absolutely have their right to say "give it up" or "let it rest". But their summary ignoring of any sort of criticism bothers me, and the fact that they automatically dismiss what I have to say and label me also bothers me.

With the WMD, it may be painfully obvious that there were none, but there's still many people out there who believe there were and we were right to go into Iraq to find them.

As for the 2004 election, this has nothing to do with 2000. There was so much corruption and disenfranchisment in the election that people are starting to find out about, it makes my head spin as to why its not being covered more in the mainstream media. If more people truly knew what corruption was happening in the election system they would be infuriated.



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User currently offlineOYRJA From Denmark, joined Feb 2007, 78 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1191 times:

The sad thing is that I'll bet that if there is any corruption, the Liberals are just as guilty as well. I doubt that the Republicans are the only one doing this.
I'm Liberal my self. But I really doubt that the liberals are clean.


User currently offlineMxCtrlr From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2485 posts, RR: 35
Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1189 times:

The worst part of all of this is voter apathy. Neither party, the democrats or republicans, have put up a quality candidate in years. When they do, look for voter apathy to ebb but not before then. Let's hope for 2008...

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool



DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1185 times:

I think such hollow replies as this are fitting in discussions of sports, chasing chix or job-related speculations are harmless and fitting.


But when used in such serious subjects that you've mentioned... what that tells me, Tbar, is that it's entered an area where it's disturbing someone's comfort zone. It's combating or threatening their core beliefs and most people won't stand for it. It becomes a question of how much truth can one really stand? I like steak, chicken or beef... seeing chicken's a neck wrung or slabs of cow carcasses hanging in a freezer doesn't bother me a bit...but if I saw the animal killed to make it.. I'll admit (L-188 and ANCflyer are gonna get bone-on very this admission)... I'd probably become a vegetarian on the spot. But then again... depending on how hungry or desperate I was (Apocalyptic scenario-- I just might have to bite the bullet and kill my own dog and share it with my neighbor...who knows??? Plain and simple, I already know the truth about the matter.. but I don't care to see the process, yet I'm keenly aware of what is going on and I'm aware that desperate conditions can make anything happen. But as it stands as meat-eater... I am literally in a state of denial.

My brother has killed in both Gulf War I & II... we've discussed these things many times and I know they are on his conscious from time to time. I'm sure it's on anyone's mind if they've been in the situation. In a war it's matter of survival..either you get them or they'll get you. Back here or in London, or anywhere safe from the fighting..many of us engage in debating things of which we know nothing about.. it's just basic generalizations. There's a thread running now about Hitler and WWII.. none of us were there, but there are some well studied individuals who damn near give the sense that they were... versus those hypothesizing based on what school textbooks have taught them. And from what I've seen... given a lack of 1st hand accounts... those who are very studied on such matters and who possess the ability to factor in the human impact on all levels, come across as quite plausible. And that's when the other person's (in the argument) core belief's are threatened and they reach for the 'give it up' card.

Next time you watch a historian speak of a past president or any historical figure... place close attention to how much they speak of the persons 'documented personal flaws'. Most historians will not delve that far into what the person was really like. They keep it superficial and invoke adjectives like he was passionate, driven and had vision and general things of that nature. They rarely touch on things that make the person "more of a real person". For instance, Thomas Jefferson.. it's said he spoke like girl (his voice never cracked).. well that might explain why he was pretty much quiet while the bickering of the Declaration of Independnce was being drafted. Small things of that nature have a huge impact on a person's perception and the influence they may or not have. A person with bad teeth has a tendency to cover their mouth when the speak and or laugh in a certain social setting. At home or around friends he's comfortable..around strangers it's a completely different person.

We all just lived thru the 2004 election, all of us know that some shenanigans on both sides took place... but since most feel that it was 'just a few' incidents or since they were not touched by it..it's not that bad. It becomes a battle of the selfish versus the selfless. To the selfish, everything borders on the line of desperation, ready to strike at the 1st appearance of someone/something poised to take what's theirs. The world has been about the struggle for power since the 1st person said 'this is mine'.. the 'grab-on has been 'on' ever since! You get too deep on these subjects and people either call you a conspiracy nut or again...invoke the 'give it up' card. Conspiracy is alive and well anywhere money and power are present. It just takes two to conspire or devise a plan of deception. Take two competing college fraternities/sororities..do they conspire against another? Do sports agents conspire to shift a trade deal in one way or another? Does Ford spy on GM and Toyota? Does Boeing spy on Airbus? Does Israel spy on the US. Did Kerry spy on the Bush Camp? What do the do with the acquired intell? Republicans (unofficially) conspired with /Luciane Goldberg & Linda Tripp to get Clinton by way of Monica, Clinton conspired to cover it up. If money and power were involved.. you bet your ass there's conspiracy going on at full throttle! It just not called that in 'legitimate circles or what is perceived as such.. it's called 'out foxing' or 'out jockeying the competition/rival.' Average Joe will argue with you that 'that's just the way things are done'.. no, it's acceptable conspiracy is what it is.. and it's employed in ways and on levels that Average Joe couldn't understand if it layed out right infront of his very eyes. Now enters the case of 'prove it's a conspiracy' that's when it gets tricky , furtive and must meet a legal acceptibility. But the bottom line remains.. you can't remain in power without the ability and will to conspire in some form or another.. you'll end up powerless and/or broke if you do.

People only want to know so much truth then they pull the 'emergency brake'! And that threshold for truth is different for any and everyone who breaths air.

BN747




"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
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