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Watch Out Europe  
User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1029 times:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20050108-113641-7679r.htm

BERLIN — Islamist extremists accused of plotting to kill Iraq's prime minister in Germany are smuggling battle-hardened fighters from Iraq to Europe, raising a potential new terrorist threat on the Continent, German officials said.

"The problem all over Europe is that they can only do something when there's specific evidence of an attack," he said. "If people just sit around and talk about jihad, there's relatively little you can do."

12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13967 posts, RR: 63
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1014 times:

Well, we didn´t let the communist terrorists of the 1970s-1980s force us to become a police state and I don´t see any reason why we should turn into one now as well. We are NOT going to change the constitution because of them. But on the other hand, Schily said a while ago in an interview that any terrorist commiting crimes here has to consider that he might get killed. Schily said hat he is not going to order the police to hold back e.g. in a hostage situation out of considerance for the terrorist´s life.

Jan


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13166 posts, RR: 78
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1000 times:

Yep, let's see,
UK - IRA and some ME terrorism,
Germany - Bader Meinhof, some ME terrorism,
France - Action Direct and that nasty overspill from Algeria (including a foiled attempt to crash a A310 on Paris).
Italy - Red Brigades and some far right stuff.
Spain - ETA and more recently, the big attack last year (turns out the opposition who won 'unexpectedly' after that were doing well in the polls before, partly due to over 90% of the voters being dead against being in Iraq from the start).
Netherlands - South Mollucan's, some IRA activity due to proximity to UK bases in Germany in the 1980's.
Greece - Those N17 muppets, (funny how as the Olympics got close a successful crackdown, after 30 years of nothing, happened)!
Norway even once had Mossad getting up to no good in the 70's killing some poor immigrant in a case of mistaken identity - they on the 'State sponsors of terrorism list' yet?

Being flippant aside, I think it's fair to say that all security organization over here have been working hard, sometime, someone will get through, but that's hardly a new experience.
And appearing to do little or nothing is not the same as that actually being the case, it is supposed to be a covert, low key almost totally intelligence based 'war' after all.


User currently offlineRT514 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 980 times:

We are NOT going to change the constitution because of them.

Good.
...And don't create any green/blue/orange/red/indigo/mauve/fuchsia Terror Alert code either. Inciting widespread panic and paranoia is one of the terrorists' greatest weapons.


User currently offlineAir2gxs From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 944 times:

As listed by GDB, Europe has had its share of terrorist organizations committing acts in they name of whatever.

But, I would not be so quick to dismiss a committed religious terrorist who has nothing to gain by staying alive and everything to gain (in his mind) by delivering the souls of the infidel to Allah. (Just a little flourish on my part).

I don't think most political terrorists really wanted to die. They were concerned with living in the people's paradises they were trying to bring to fruitition. Death was an occupational hazard to them. To the Islamist terrorist, his own death is a means to the end and not a hazard, but a pre-requisite.

Europe has done a good job in the past of dealing with terrorist threats, and I'm sure will do a good job in this case. But, with falling borders, I'd have a bit of concern myself.

I agree on the color-coded threat whatever, its useless and too arbitrary. I believe it was designed here in the States to placate those who want the government to do more, even if it just looks like they're doing more.

[Edited 2005-01-11 20:51:15]

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13967 posts, RR: 63
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 916 times:

Air2Gxs,

While the observation of radical religious groups at least in Germany is a fairly new phenomenon, made more difficult by cultural, racial and language differences, I also see the security departments demanding more and more power (wiretapping without a permit from a judge, searches of appartments, prophylatic storing of personal data), which would turn the country into mentioned police state and maybe preparing the way for a future dictator. The communists back in the 1970s wanted to reach more or less the same goal: Attack the government, government strikes back by turning into a dictature, population gets p*ssed off and rebels against ther government with the terrorists as leaders. Fortunately the Socialdemocrat government back then didn´t go the way of a dictatorship, without making concessions to the terrorists.
I think the main difference between Europ and the US before 9/11 is that we are kind of used to the fact that there WILL be successfull attacks, whatever we do, but in the end we´ll get the b*st*rds. Look at Carlos. He considered himself to be untouchable. Now he is an ordinary criminsl doing a life term in a French jail. They locked him up and threw away the key. And what hurts him most: He´s got no privileged status as a political prisoner. The other prisoners saw to it.

The radical Muslim cleric Abu Hamza, currently in British jail, awaiting trial, refused to go to court because "his towenails were too long". The answer: He got an additional sentence for insulting the court.
It has to be made clear to religiozs radicals that the ONLY law valid here is the constitution and the laws based on it. That there are no spaces permitted, where the local law, doesn´t matter if it is British, French or German not applies.
It took long for the German authorities to see the danger, but hey are reacting. Politicians like "visible security, e.g. cops standing around with machine guns", but the real security comes from intelligence work and infiltration of radical groups.
Interestingly, the fact that many radical groups are opening themselves now for recruits from outside their own ethnic group, make it easier for the police to infiltrate observers.

Jan


User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2234 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 908 times:

Schily said hat he is not going to order the police to hold back e.g. in a hostage situation out of considerance for the terrorist´s life.

... or the lives of the hostages, sadly enough. Although one cannot underestimate the European countries' in general and Germany's in particular terrorism dealing policies, I must say that in hostage situations some training can only make things better. (As in Munich Olympics Vs. Entebbe)



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 880 times:

"Schily said a while ago in an interview that any terrorist commiting crimes here has to consider that he might get killed."

Not much of a deterrent to a suicide bomber I'd guess, but I guess I'll leave it to to the European experts.




Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineAir2gxs From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 837 times:

Jan,
My post wasn't an endorsement of an increase of government intrusion. I'm not a fan of our Patriot Act. I feel its too intrusive. And Europeans should fear an increase in government power (in my opinion, your governments already have too much power, but that's another topic) because, like you said, it sets the stage for dictatorship.

What I was trying to get across in my post is this: The Islamic extremists that are increasing their presence in Europe are of a different breed than those (including Islamists) of the 70s & 80s. Those terrorists wanted to affect political change. The terrorists of today want to affect political change via religious change. They are driven by faith and don't care about death, so long as their individual mission is accomplished. They are a different animal.

Patton once said : "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

Well, the Islamists don't believe that. They don't don't fear death and that makes them exponentially more dangerous than the political terrorists.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13967 posts, RR: 63
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 838 times:

LY7E7,

The hostage crisis in Munich was handled absolutely amateurish ( and as a result got f*cked up).
Following this event, the Border Police GSG9 unit got founded, which initially received trainig by both the Israeli Army and the British SAS. Things have improved quite a bit since 1972 (see e.g. the storming of the hijacked LH 737 in Mogadishu)
The reason for Schilly´s statements were that it shows a change of doctrine over the last few years, since we have those fanatic religious radicals. Before, police were very restricted in the use of terminal force. The main aim was:
a) to rescue the hostages
b) and at the same time to catch the terrorist alive to bring him to court.

Now it is easier for a polivce commander or a sniper to use an opportunity to shoot to kill to save a hostage.

Jan


User currently offlineAerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7159 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 772 times:

Who cares? we're all going to die sooner or later yet we still live our lives the way we want to without constant fear of dying cos there isn't a lot we can do about it - same goes for Terrorism, it's an (negative) aspect engrained in humanity that you accept and move on.

"And Europeans should fear an increase in government power (in my opinion, your governments already have too much power, but that's another topic) because, like you said, it sets the stage for dictatorship."

You said it, you live in the US - I think that applies to the US more than the EU countries though. Greatest democracy in the world it isn't - there are plenty of other countries I would put above the US for that.


User currently offlineAngelairways From United Kingdom, joined Nov 1999, 502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 690 times:

I can't believe the Washington Times publishes such bullsh*t. On the other hand, why am I surprised....

Anyhow why dont they mind their own business. I never saw The Times (UK) write about what America should be doing.

"The problem all over Europe is that they can only do something when there's specific evidence of an attack,"

and thats the way we want it to be!


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