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Bush Figures. (Statistics, Not Action Figure...)  
User currently offlineThom@s From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 11953 posts, RR: 46
Posted (9 years 8 months 12 hours ago) and read 1294 times:

I'm glad we cleared that up...

Anyway: Here are some figures comparing what the conditions were like in the US before Bush became President, and the conditions at present as he starts his second term. (Sigh.)

Now, I'm not saying all the changes are caused by the choice of president, but some of the issues are certainly his responsibility.

So, here are the figures:

Budget

* 2001: + $127 billion
* 2004: - $413 billion. (A record btw)


Unemployment

* January 2001: 4,2%
* January 2004: 5,7%


Employed americans

* January 2001: 132,4 million.
* January 2004: 130,2 million.


Gas/Petrol prices

* January 2001: $1,47 per gallon.
* January 2005: $1,82 per gallon.


Number of AIDS cases worldwide

* 2001: 34,9%
* 2004: 39,4%


Minimum wage USA

* 2001: $5,15 per hour.
* 2004: $5,15 per hour.


Population USA

* July 2001: 285,102,075
* July 2004: 293,655,404


Oil prices

* January 2001: $32,21
* January 2005: $48,39


Dow Jones average

* January 2001: 10,587.59
* January 2005: 10,628.79

There we are.  Smile

Thom@s


"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCaptoveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 11 hours ago) and read 1274 times:

Way to compare apples to oranges. In January 2001 the world was a different place.

The budget: We were showing a surplus because we were in an unchecked economic downturn which the last administration didn't really care to do anything about because they wanted to leave a mess for the next guy. Now we are in a war and in an economy that is showing signs of a fairly strong recovery. A recovering economy usually does run a budget deficit. Don't forget your US Constitution though, the Senate makes the Budget and has final approval.

Unemployment: Economists say 95% is full employment. Using your figures right now we are at 94.3% employment.. That isn't bad. Opportunities for college graduates are on the rise right now and that is a good thing, we are turning into an even higher tech economy. I am sorry about the luck of the unskilled workers but instead of coming home every night from their 8hrs on the line at GM And cracking open a Bud maybe they should have been taking night classes at the local community college.

Gas prices: This is also comparing apples to oranges, the world was different in 2001. Yeah we are paying more at the pump, if you adjust those numbers for inflation we still aren't doing all that bad. There are good days and there are bad days, a couple weeks ago I paid $1.59 for gas, this week it will probably be $1.79.

AIDS cases: What does Bush really have to do with this? I guess he is sneaking around at night and giving it to people, he is an evil genius, remember?

Minimum wage: Who cares? Lets raise the minimum wage and put more minimum wage workers out of work because the incremental cost of their labor isn't worth more than $5.15 an hour to their employer. If you aren't making enough money, get a better job. This may sound simplistic but we are in a free market economy, if your skills qualify you to make more money somewhere else: GO. If you have no skills you should work on getting some, it is not my responsibility as a tax payer to make sure you have enough money to pay for better cable TV than I myself get.

Population: How is an increasing population something you are going to hold against Bush? People are going to breed regardless of who is in the White House.

Oil Prices: So what, they are up? They go up and down over time, you act like this is an irreversible linear progression.

The Dow: So it is a few hundred points above where it was 4 years ago. If you look at the graph all the markets took a pretty huge dive in late 2001 and it has taken a few years to recover. A lot of what made the Dow climb above 10,000 the first time was the tech boom so if anything that 2001 number is a false high. Most financial types would say the market is pretty stable right now and growing at a fairly steady rate. I know my personal portfolio has been doing pretty good.

I would have taken this post a little more seriously if it came from an American. Excuse me while I go tell Norway how they should vote and show half baked facts that lack historical perspective to show them they made a bad choice in leadership.

[Edited 2005-01-20 17:37:41]

User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 11 hours ago) and read 1267 times:

And Bush figures in here where?

Except for the budget figures and minimum wage I don't see how you think these are Bush Figures. The budget is always strained in a time of war.

Oil and gas prices are Bush driven??? Give a call to OPEC and see what they have to say.

US Population is certainly not Bush driven unless he's procreating a lot more than you and I!

I can blame the Dow numbers directly on 9/11 and our recovery, which has been quite satisfactory. The terrorists tried to destroy the US economy, and they failed.

And I'm sure it's all Bush's fault that AIDS is running rampant through Africa and other third world areas . . . .

I don't have the time nor inclination to respons as the Cpt has done.

Geeeez . . .  Yeah sure




[Edited 2005-01-20 17:43:02]

User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17489 posts, RR: 45
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 11 hours ago) and read 1260 times:

"Unemployment

* January 2001: 4,2%
* January 2004: 5,7%"

In related news, unemployment in Germany reached a new high of 10+%...clearly Bush's fault as well. Deutschland, Deutschland ueber alles!



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLHSebi From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 1049 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 10 hours ago) and read 1234 times:

Captoveur,

A recovering economy usually does run a budget deficit.

Huh?! What is the economy recovering from? And don't say your marvellous war, since that would just as well be Bush's fault too...

Minimum wage: Who cares? Lets raise the minimum wage and put more minimum wage workers out of work because the incremental cost of their labor isn't worth more than $5.15 an hour to their employer. If you aren't making enough money, get a better job. This may sound simplistic but we are in a free market economy, if your skills qualify you to make more money somewhere else: GO. If you have no skills you should work on getting some, it is not my responsibility as a tax payer to make sure you have enough money to pay for better cable TV than I myself get.

Ahhhh, ignorance at its best. "Who cares?"... You seem to believe that anyone that works at minimum wage deserves what they are getting. You don't know their past, their opportunities, etc. Not everyone may have been as lucky as others to get a decent education, and be given opportunities to excel in life!

Oil Prices: So what, they are up? They go up and down over time, you act like this is an irreversible linear progression.

Actually the oil prices per barrel are a very good indicator of economic stability/situation. Why do you think it is used in similar ways as the price of gold to indicate economid/world stability? But yes of course...once you kill the remaining Iraqis that are keeping you from "completing the mission in Iraq", the oil prices should come back down as you will have it in abundance, right?...  Yeah sure

I would have taken this post a little more seriously if it came from an American.

What a great argument...So just because the FACTS are presented by someone that isn't an American, they are different than if they were presented by one of your fellow citizens?...  Insane


MaverickM11,
What the hell does that have to do with anything? Is this thread discussing German politics? NO! Thomas started the thread with intention of giving some facts and figures to compare before and during Bush's time in office! If you feel the need to show your opinion on how crappy Chancellor Schröder is running Germany, be my guest, and open a separate thread!

Why is it you cannot have a civilized discussion, but straight away have to retaliate with facts irrelevant to the discussion at hand?

By the way, your comment Deutschland, Deutschland ueber alles! is beyond inappropriate! You should be ashamed of yourself to have to resort to such measures...

Sebastian



I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
User currently offlineRsmith6621a From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 194 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 10 hours ago) and read 1231 times:

Captoveur said..........Way to compare apples to oranges. In January 2001 the world was a different place.

Is that your new mantra???.....is your obsession GIF wearing on you to????

If that be the case then why have abortions gone back up under this PRO-LIFE president???????.......They went steadly down under CLINTON........I think it has somthing to do with the ECONOMY STUPID.....and the lack of Comunity based healthcare programs.............How did SEPT 11. change that fact....HUH!!!!!

Get your lifeboats out folk the Great Ship Democracy is going down.



Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 10 hours ago) and read 1230 times:

"In related news, unemployment in Germany reached a new high of 10+%...clearly Bush's fault as well. Deutschland, Deutschland ueber alles!"

Cue The Hives: "See that idiot talk..."



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineSpinzels From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 330 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 9 hours ago) and read 1222 times:

Goodness you guys are touchy! On the day of the inauguration, with the Federal Government completely in your thrall, and dominance of a majority of state legislatures, not to mention the all-important State of Kansas Education Board, and you still lash out at the odd Norwegian who just wants to talk. Given that the Norwegians are among the most firm supporters of the U.S. in ole’ Europe, could you perhaps be a little nicer?

The budget: We were showing a surplus because we were in an unchecked economic downturn which the last administration didn't really care to do anything about because they wanted to leave a mess for the next guy.

Well that makes no sense because Clinton/Gore were pretty confident that the next guy would be Gore. Anyway, it must be great to be a conservative because you never have to admit a mistake and never have to take responsibility for anything? It’s always the other guys fault, right? Even if he left office fours years ago, it’s still his fault!

The deficit is at this level because the Republicans in the White House and on Capitol hill do not care about deficits. As VP Cheney said, “Reagan proved deficits don’t matter”. In the Spring of 2001 the entire rationale for the enormous tax cuts was the US$ 8 trillion dollar surpluses staring us in the face. After 9/11 and the economic down turn, the administration could have cut spending and rolled back the tax cuts to prevent the deficit from spiraling into half-trillion dollar territory.

The administration didn’t do that. Partly they couldn’t, of course, the war in Iraq has been very expensive. The Bush Administration had promised a War in Iraq and a post-war reconstruction that would pay for itself, but no one believed that. When White House economic Lawence Lindsay suggested that the war would instead cost US$100 – 200 billion, he was promptly sacked. Of course the bill for Iraq will be far above even the high end of that estimate.

But mostly the administration had no interest in cutting the deficit. Rolling back the tax increases would alienate supporters, cutting spending would alienate supporters (remember, that the average Bush state gets more back in federal spending than it provides in tax revenue), and the Bush administration was using the power of incumbency for some old fashioned Keynesian pump-priming to drive up economic growth (no doubt Milton Friedman would have been rolling in his grave, if he wasn’t actually still living).

Don't forget your US Constitution though, the Senate makes the Budget and has final approval.

Well, I think that you have forgotten your US Constitution, because budget bills always originate in the House of Representatives, U.S. Constitution, Article I, Section 7, Paragraph 1. http://www.constitution.org/constit_.htm

Of course, the HOR has been in the hands of the Republicans since Jan 1995.

Unemployment: Economists say 95% is full employment. Using your figures right now we are at 94.3% employment.. That isn't bad.

No you can’t subtract the unemployment rate from 100% and arrive at the degree of employment. You have to admit that’s just plain disingenuous on your part—you know better. The unemployment rate excludes whole categories of workers who are not employed not counted as unemployed (e.g., discouraged workers). Using the Department of Labor’s Household survey (the Bush Administration’s favored measurement of employment activity), the rate of labor force participation was well below 94.3%, in fact in December ’04 it was 66% http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

Indeed we are well behind on were we should be in the number of jobs created, and even the Bush administration has to acknowledge that. The Bush Administration promised less two years ago that its policies would bring non-farm payrolls to 138 million in 2004. As Thom@s notes, here on Jan. 20 we are seven million jobs short of that. (See “Economic Report of the President, 2002” , pages 41-49 for the President's purported job-growing policies, and see page 53 for the 138MM figure, the report is available here: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy03/pdf/2002_erp.pdf)

To repeat a long broken record, this is the first administration since Herbert Hoover, that will ends a four year presidential terms with fewer jobs than when it began.

I am sorry about the luck of the unskilled workers but instead of coming home every night from their 8hrs on the line at GM And cracking open a Bud maybe they should have been taking night classes at the local community college.

Wow, cultural elitism from a Bush supporter. I’ve seen everything. The Republicans are as dependent on the GM workers cracking open a Bud at the end of the day as the Democrats…going forward maybe even more so.



I've been to Paradise, but I've never been to me
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17489 posts, RR: 45
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 9 hours ago) and read 1214 times:

"MaverickM11,
What the hell does that have to do with anything? Is this thread discussing German politics?"

No, it's just linking everything wrong with the world to Bush, and I just wanted to add one more thing to blame on Bush.

"You should be ashamed of yourself to have to resort to such measures...
"
I'm so ashamed I'm cutting myself right now.

"If you feel the need to show your opinion on how crappy Chancellor Schröder is running Germany, be my guest, and open a separate thread!
"

It's not Shroeder's fault, it's Bush or Halliburton. Duh.

"You seem to believe that anyone that works at minimum wage deserves what they are getting."

No, we believe that if you raise the minimum wage, those minimum wage workers will be getting SQUAT.

"The unemployment rate excludes whole categories of workers who are not employed not counted as unemployed "

It also exludes whole categories of workers who ARE employed, particularly self employed.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 9 hours ago) and read 1209 times:

What are these figures meant to prove? Bush has very little control over most of them, and without more data points, it is a meaningless comparison.

2nd law of statistical manupulation:

When a straight line is the required result, only plot two points.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineSpinzels From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 330 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 9 hours ago) and read 1205 times:

"The unemployment rate excludes whole categories of workers who are not employed not counted as unemployed "

It also exludes whole categories of workers who ARE employed, particularly self employed.


Nope, I'm afraid you are wrong. I clearly stated that the figures I was quoting are from the Household Survey , and the Household Survey most certainly does count self-employed workers. Just follow the link I posted to the DoL website and read it for yourself. Not so hard, huh?



I've been to Paradise, but I've never been to me
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17489 posts, RR: 45
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 9 hours ago) and read 1204 times:

"What are these figures meant to prove?"

That the anti-Bush crowd has trouble using meaningful statistics and blames him and the US for everything under the sun.

"Nope, I'm afraid you are wrong."

Touché; I got the two indices backwards.

[Edited 2005-01-20 19:39:18]


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCaptoveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 8 hours ago) and read 1183 times:

I am still waiting on Rsmith to tell us how the tsunami and slavery were George's fault and how Dubya single-handedly invented designated hitter to disenfranchise pitchers.

It is not a matter of opportunities on minimum wage. If you are able to wake up every morning at a reasonable hour, take a shower, and make yourself halfway presentable you can get a job at a living wage, I know, I have done it. If you can't manage that maybe you need to keep making $5.15 an hour until you figure it out. Raising the minimum wage will put a lot of the existing minimum wage workers out of work and for the rest it is probably rewarding mediocrity.

Oh yeah, speaking passable English might also be a job requirement.


User currently offlineLOT767-300ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 7 hours ago) and read 1171 times:

"Get your lifeboats out folk the Great Ship Democracy is going down."

Its sinking hell of a lot slower than that of Howard Deans, Kerrys or for the matter of fact the Democrat fundamental compaign  Laugh out loud


User currently offlineLHSebi From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 1049 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 7 hours ago) and read 1168 times:

Captoveur,
You're not seriously trying to say that anyone, regardless of their education can get an above minimum wage job? Funny how you already state the first requirement for getting a decent job is to speak "passable" english...anything else? Maybe be born in the US, college education, etc?... Insane

Sebastian



I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
User currently offlineThom@s From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 11953 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 7 hours ago) and read 1161 times:

would have taken this post a little more seriously if it came from an American.

Yes, how silly of me. Sorry to insinuate that the decisions your country under your president make affects other countries than the US...  Yeah sure

Thom@s



"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17489 posts, RR: 45
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 7 hours ago) and read 1157 times:

"Funny how you already state the first requirement for getting a decent job is to speak "passable" english...anything else? Maybe be born in the US, college education, etc?... "

You say that as if there is something wrong with that... Yeah sure



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLHSebi From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 1049 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 7 hours ago) and read 1150 times:

MaverickM11,
There certainly is something wrong with decent jobs going only to people born in the US!

I am just amused at how hypocritical Captoveur is. First he starts saying that it's the worker's fault if they don't have a well paying job, since anyone that can wake up early enough and show up on time can get one. But then, he asks why those workers don't go to Community College, and learn something to get a good job, etc...

Sebastian



I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 7 hours ago) and read 1150 times:

>>"Number of AIDS cases worldwide"<<

I admit I was about to fall for it by claiming that's not Bush's fault, but the statistics are pretty much coincedences and have nothing to do with anything; if anything it is perspective.

I know there is no way to conclude anything about BUSH based on those statistics though I am sure by whatever is written above, that my fellow A.netters have fallen for the trap. Big grin

Remember statistics don't lie; in fact they don't ever say anything; people believe what they want and can misinterpret things.



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineCaptoveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 6 hours ago) and read 1137 times:

Some of you have issues distinguishing between good and better job.

In the US most of the population, even the minority and immigrant population speaks English. That is the language here. Learn it or don't cry to me when you can't get a job that doesn't involve cleaning up poo.

If you are unskilled, working and think there is a good chance your factory will be shut down and moved to Mexico because you are making $30/hr but half your co-workers are "sick" on any given day you may want to invest in going to school to find a better job. Those cushy automotive jobs are getting to be fewer and fewer every year. Unfortunantly for the people currently in those jobs they think their union cares about them and they also think when the plant closes they will be able to just go out and get a job at the same pay rate they were getting. WRONG!

I am also telling you that of the jobs I had when I was sustaining myself and NOT in school I was working right alongside high school dropouts and making damn good money doing it. The only real requirement was be able to get up and be at work by 8am, speak and read ENGLISH, and be able to crawl into a shirt with a collar and pants, not jeans. Within 3 months I was making about 2.5 times what minmum wage is, in a job that took minimal skills, they even wanted to make me mangement and this company had never even seen my resume.

Someone is now going to tell me how that job had requirements that asked too much of people.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17489 posts, RR: 45
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 1128 times:

"There certainly is something wrong with decent jobs going only to people born in the US!"

1) Do you have anything to back that up?
2) Even if it's true, what is wrong with that? Is there somewhere on earth that treats its immigrants better than the US? I highly doubt it.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineStowAway From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 640 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 1125 times:

Anybody who compares figures from 2001 to today is either completely uninformed, or they have been alseep between the time periods.

Thom@s, Where did those figures come from, BTW?



A monkey's ass always talks crap.
User currently offlineYukimizake From Japan, joined Mar 2004, 529 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 1117 times:

Thom@s, you forgot one.

2001: Baltimore Ravens
2004: New England Patiots



'Opfer müssen gebracht werden (Sacrifices must be made)' - Otto Lilienthal
User currently offlineLHSebi From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 1049 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 1117 times:

MaverickM11,
Switch on your brain for just a second to read that...does my comment really sound like a FACT? It's my opinion. I certainly don't think that good jobs should only go to the natives of a certain country. That's obvious discrimination, which I am against! You could have figured that one out on your own...

Sebastian



I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
User currently offlineThom@s From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 11953 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 1111 times:

The figures are from the News bureau AP. I found them on one of Norway's newspaper websites, www.dagbladet.no

As I pointed out in my original post, I'm not saying that Bush is to blame for all the figures. They simply show how the situation has developed while he has been President.

Do I think Bush is responsible for the number of AIDS cases in the world? No. He could however, as the worlds most powerful man, help prevent the spreading of the disease.

Do I think Bush is responsible for the poor economy, increased unemployment in the US, and the unchanged minimum wages? Yes. He has not improved any of these. Now I don't know exactly what he promised during the first election he was in, but it doesn't look like he's kept his promises. Not that politicians are known to do so... granted. But he really ought to turn those figures around.

Thom@s



"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
25 MaverickM11 : LHSebi, chill. You made it sound like that was what was going on and/or demanding that people speak passable English was some kind of discrimination.
26 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : Number of AIDS cases worldwide ...the hell's this got to do with Bush?
27 Aegis : Number of AIDS cases worldwide ...the hell's this got to do with Bush? Have a quick look at the first post in the thread... Now, I'm not saying all th
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