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When Does A Baby Have A Soul?  
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2824 times:

We were talking about abortion today in class and the pros and cons etc etc. and some argued it was killing a baby regardless if its a mass of cells or a body and etc etc. Well i had thought of something on the religious side, so if your religius especially on the christian side, im curious tpo hear your thoughts. when a baby is amde, at what point does it have a soul? in the begining when its a mass of cells? when its born? when its fully done (9th month)? or when? All of us cannot remember past maybe 2 or 3 yrs of age. we especially do not remember being born or living up to the age of 1 even though we had a soul. im curious as to when you think a baby is given a soul?

Alex


Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMBMBOS From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2810 times:

Hate to break it to you, but you're not going to get anywhere constructive with this conversation until you define "soul".

And, by the way, do any of us have a soul? Can you prove that any of us do?


User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2810 times:

After the application is processed.. usually takes 6-8 weeks after birth


An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2810 times:

And he is from the Vatican. He should know!



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineMBMBOS From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2805 times:

TWFirst,

Do you receive the approval by mail? And can you speed up the process by going online?


User currently offlinePJS800 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 242 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2796 times:

Have no idea about this, but I figure since churches don't want abortion at all it would have to have a soul as soon as it was conceived. Just a guess.

P.J.


User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2796 times:

Everything MUST be filled out in triplicate (one copy for Big Daddy, JC and the H to the G)... parents (if known) receive a confirmation by return mail... as mentioned, certificate arrives about 6-8 weeks after received at central processing.

No web site as of yet, but it's coming...



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineRedngold From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 45
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2787 times:

http://www.bfl.org/bible_and_abortion.htm

Not necessarily about when the baby has a soul, rather who determines the beginning and end of life.



Up, up and away!
User currently offlineAnt72LBA From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 414 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2781 times:

When it listens to its first Aretha Franklin album?

User currently offlineRedngold From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 45
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2774 times:

*snicker* @ Ant72LBA  Big thumbs up


Up, up and away!
User currently offlineSleekjet From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2046 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2767 times:

I'm going to say at conception. At that point, there is life...and since there is life, there is a soul involved.

Meaning, if a mother-to-be miscarries, I fully believe that soul enters heaven.



II Cor. 4:17-18
User currently offlineAerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7159 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2756 times:

When it becomes a small baby, rather than a large foetus.... Ie: when it becomes recognisably human.
Your soul comes from experiences you feel from outside elements that make you identify that you are 'you'. It would not exist unless you had thoughts that were 'that's me & that's somebody else'. You only develop that from interaction with others with that ability.
Once the baby in the uterus is old enough to be able to respond to music and other stimulae and poke it's mother's tummy in response that is where 'the soul' is first developed. As you develop so does your soul, like a rodent's teeth it grows constantly from experiences until you die - and it ceases to exist again.
I think abortion should be available for those who need it, but only in the first 10 weeks after conception - before it has a chance to develop a soul.


User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2747 times:

Funny remarks to those that made it, i appreciated them. However I think aerorobonz hit it on the head. at what point do we define we and you and I? For example, when we r first conceieved supossedly we wont hve a soul, so if the soul was supossed to enter that body yet the "baby" was damaged before, can that soul re-enter another body? If the baby dies before the completed 9 months, does it have a soul to go to heaven? How about premature babies that were born at the 26th week, 10 weeks before the scheduled date. they have a soul when born so im sure they have a soul now. I am glad to see it hasnt turned into a big argument as I do not want to talk about abortion per se but specifically when you believe the baby has something to live on, make him/her think for themselevs.
Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineSLC1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2744 times:

Since soul is a highly religious idea I will refer instead to a being. I don't believe that there is any given moment at which a child goes from a mass of cells to a being of its own right, rather it's a gradual progression until the child is fully grown, and continues from that point on.

User currently offlinePlanespotterx From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2740 times:

Our "soul" is just intelligence thats being passed down through the generations, our personality is determined by our surroundings, how we were interracted with as a child etc.
I dont think theres some magical soul thing inside us, thats like saying Santa exists..our soul is just our intelligence, nothing more..IMO anyway.


User currently offlineSFOMEX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day ago) and read 2702 times:

Everything MUST be filled out in triplicate (one copy for Big Daddy, JC and the H to the G)... parents (if known) receive a confirmation by return mail... as mentioned, certificate arrives about 6-8 weeks after received at central processing.

No web site as of yet, but it's coming...


TWFirst, so it's ok to mock Christian beliefs now? Coming for the Defender-in chief of Gay rights is kind of hard to understand it. You get as mad as hell when you read homophobic posts, denouncing the bigotry of those right-wing nuts; yet, making fun of other's religious beliefs is just fine to you. After all, you are just joking right?

Think about it.


User currently offlineFlybyguy From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1801 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 23 hours ago) and read 2692 times:

It is my understanding that the soul comes into being upon conception. Life is not necessary cut and dry as "oh wait... it's only human if we could rip it out of the womb and it survives."

I believe that it is very important that when a child is conceived he/she IS a human being and must be treated as such. If anything has the potential for life and an individual impedes this potential, then that individual is a murderer plain and simple. Rationalizing the termination of innocent lives when the mother's life is not in peril is the downfall of our society.

A "woman's right to choose" is a farce concocted by the far-left and feminists. I'll tell you exactly what women are supposed to be choosing... NOT TO HAVE SEX. Is life all about pleasure and no responsibility or moral conviction? And the blame also falls squarely upon men who view women as tools to quench their insatiable lusts.

Guys, women are more than boobs and backsides.



"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
User currently offlineAerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7159 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 2676 times:

I think we all know that they aren't just tits and ass. A woman does take sex more seriously than you give them credit for. Just because one would consider abortion does not make them a slut. Some of the girls I have been out with have been staunchly against sex before marriage yet have told me if the chips were down and they got pregnant in a rape/sexual assault or if they were not in a position to care for a child in the way a child should be treated or indeed if they were not physically able to complete the pregnancy with undergoing a huge health risk they would have an abortion. Who would blame them?
Abortion as a procedure would be the absolute last resort, because of the physical & emotional pain that goes with it, but as they, and they alone are going to be pregnant with the child it is their decision to make.

While the zygote is a zygote it has been programmed to be human, but it has not yet reached a recognizable human form. At this point it cannot think for itself, cannot feed itself, cannot breathe cannot do anything. It is like a trojan horse virus...it is programmed to function a certain way, but is not a virus until iit is activated on a certain timeframe, or subjected to a stimulae that 'brings it to life'. In this case when organs are developed enough to begin the next part of pregnancy - Growth into a larger baby in preparation for survival after birth. This point is far earlier than if it were 'pulled out of the womb it would survive.'
Anything before that and it would small enough if miscarried you'd barely notice it amongst the menstrual lining. That does not yet have a soul, looks like a maggot and really you couldn't say was a human. It is to a human what a caterpillar is to a butterfly, not yet a butterfly, but once it enters the Chrysalis it will transform into the final product. The Chrysalis stage is the stage in pregnancy that I mentioned earlier.


User currently offlineDasa From East Timor, joined Aug 2001, 760 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 18 hours ago) and read 2657 times:

When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Never.


User currently offlineDuke From Canada, joined Sep 1999, 1155 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 17 hours ago) and read 2652 times:

I believe a baby has a soul and is a living being from the moment of conception. I am patently against abortion, except in the case of saving a mother's life.

User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 17 hours ago) and read 2645 times:

A baby has a soul when its born and is exposed to the actual world.

User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 2629 times:

SFOMEX... I was brought up mega-Catholic. Without going into detail, as an adult, I have been privy to what's behind the incense and gold monstrances and silk robes... and I know of what I speak.

I admit there is a fine line with humor... believe it or not, I don't take myself too seriously. I do not mind good-natured jokes about gay people or gay culture... I make the same kinds of jokes. The fine line comes in ascertaining the mindset of the person making the joke - whether the intent is malicious or not. It's the same concept as the rules surrounding the use of the "N" word. And in my posts above, I am not maliciously making fun of all Christian beliefs... it is only fundamentalists that say I don't have a right to exist or share the same legal rights as them that I have a problem with. I do not say and would never say that religious folk do not have a right to believe whatever they want, although it is very difficult for me to understand people who do not question what they're taught.

In conclusion.. sorry if I offended you, but I still don't see anything wrong with making a silly joke about the S.A.P.... (soul acquisition process)  Smile.



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 2617 times:

I don't know for the soul, and in fact you don't know either, but he's got a begining of conscience when his neurons are starting their chemical communication, after a few days or weeks, don't know really.

User currently offlineAerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7159 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 2598 times:

Abortion to save the life of the mother is still abortion. If you approve of that you approve of abortion because technically you are still 'killing'(for want of a better word) the embreyo/foetus... lets call a spade a spade here. There is no happy median that makes one type of abortion any better or worse than another. Abortion, like any other type of surgery is a process that should be available to people if they choose to have that done to them. Whether the rest of us care for it or not is not actually relevent. There are consequences to any decision, and that's just something we all just live with and accept as part of life. You live your life, and they'll live theirs.

User currently offlineThecoz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 2593 times:

My life never really began until I climbed out of the abortion bucket.

Signed,
Chris78cpr


25 PacificWestern : Bah...most adults I know of have no souls. Did they have them as babies and lost them later? I'd be glad to know.
26 DeltaGuy : A baby has a soul when concieved, IMHO. It's not the court's right to tell us when a baby's life begins, and what is considered murder/not murder. I k
27 TWFirst : >>It's not the court's right to tell us when a baby's life begins, and what is considered murder/not murder.
28 Flybyguy : That is not what DeltaGuy meant TWFirst... he simply stated that many-at-times very liberal judges bypass moral values when it comes to the defense of
29 Diamond : " ... at-times very liberal judges bypass moral values ... " And at times, very conservative judges manufacture moral values to justify their own bigo
30 LifelinerOne : Funny and mainly interesting to see the comments coming from the US on abortion. As you may all know, or know it now from me, abortion is legal here i
31 SFOMEX : The Netherlands have "removed" religion from it's politics and that's a good thing. Religion is emotion and emotion isn't always the best when making
32 Blackbird1331 : When it can determine between right and wrong and then determins to do right. If it goes astray. It is held accountable.
33 TWFirst : >>That is not what DeltaGuy meant TWFirst... he simply stated that many-at-times very liberal judges bypass moral values when it comes to the defense
34 LifelinerOne : Yet, what the Netherlands and some other countries have done goes beyond that separation. In fact, their goal is precisely "to remove" religion from t
35 Msllsmith : Aerorobnz and many others here are wise beyond their years. Without going in to the dreaded feminist rhetoric, ...... when men can give birth we'll g
36 B757300 : I'm going to say at conception. At that point, there is life...and since there is life, there is a soul involved. Meaning, if a mother-to-be miscarrie
37 PacificWestern : Meaning, if a mother-to-be miscarries, I fully believe that soul enters heaven. And if an abortion occurs, that which you once considered as having a
38 TWFirst : Great point PacificWestern!!... So, abortion is really sending babies to heaven instead of having them be born crack-addicted into poverty... Fundamen
39 DeltaGuy : Meaning, if a mother-to-be miscarries, I fully believe that soul enters heaven. Agreed here too....but sending them to heaven (eternal paradise, which
40 TWFirst : >>would you rather have said you lived for awhile (abiet drug circumstances, etc etc), then never lived at all?
41 Atrude777 : I have heard for catholics, since babies who have died before being baptised, they do not enter heaven, but rather enter a certain area, before heaven
42 Aa757first : what is the sin? I believe we are born with the power to commit a sin, but to be born with a sin? It's Original Sin. We are punished because of the a
43 Aerorobnz : "If you have an abortion, you are immediately excommunicated, meaning you are no longer welcomed into the Church." Yes true, but how would they know i
44 Aa757first : God knows, Aerorobnz. So, even if you don't tell anyone, you are no longer welcomed to the Church. AAndrew
45 Aerorobnz : I see.... he is however supposed to be a forgiving and unconditionally loving God....so with that in mind...I would keep practising if I were in that
46 PacificWestern : God knows, Aerorobnz. So, even if you don't tell anyone, you are no longer welcomed to the Church. Question: Does God know that the Pope doesn't alwa
47 SFOMEX : Catholic doctrine holds that unbaptized babies that die don't go to heaven.. they go to "Limbo". Not purgatory, not heaven, but some other eternal exi
48 JoseMEX : SFOMEX, Can you please e-mail me? My mail is in my profile.
49 Lan_Fanatic : Does baptism make you a catholic? if so... As you can see, a little baby who is killed during an abortion fulfills this Baptism of Desire. Therefore,
50 NUAir : Since when was the church concerned with Souls? I don't exactly remember them crying out when millions were being killed in German execution camps or
51 TWFirst : >>As you can see, a little baby who is killed during an abortion fulfills this Baptism of Desire. Therefore, he/she goes to Heaven.
52 SFOMEX : A fetus is not sentient. It has no emotional desires, only biological needs. That's exactly the issue. If a baby has a soul from the conception, as I
53 TWFirst : >>That's why most pro-life people tend to be religious. They believe a soul is present in that defenseless baby and consequently having an abortion is
54 SFOMEX : So why would you have a problem with an unwanted fetus going to heaven? Easy answer here. Because it's not up to you, to me or even the mother to make
55 TWFirst : How do you know it is not God's will to prevent the fetus from being born? Where in the bible does it say that God imparts the soul upon conception? D
56 SFOMEX : JoseMEX I've emailed you. Check your email out.
57 Post contains links and images Lehpron : The concept of a soul comes from religion and is therefore negligible.   My religion considers all life on Earth to have a soul, so technically the b
58 JoseMEX : >In my opinion we have a soul when we have an open mind and are willing to help the crack addict single mother go through rehab rather then blow the m
59 NUair : JoseMEX, I think you missed the point of that quote by a long shot. The SUV and TV are just examples of the material possessions that we place in high
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