Airbus3801 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1089 posts, RR: 5 Posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 832 times:
While learning many things in Social Studies of ancient civilizations, many cultures had gods as a way to show why things happened that they could not explain. At first, the Mesopotamians had hundreds of gods because they didn't know why things happened, and slowly, the number of God's decreased as people gained a more scientific understanding of life as we know it. Today, the most wide spread belief form is monotheism, so could it be that when we know more, there will be no relgion at all?
Also, it seems that when we look back on religions, we tend to say, "Oh those dumb Egyptians thought there was a hippo god named Seth, what idiots!" Will we look back in the future on Christianity, Judiasm, Islam, etc. and say what idiots, everyone know that "blah" is the supreme god!
I don't want this to turn into a blood relgious war path, just wondering what other people think.
PDXtriple7 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 695 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 817 times:
I think you might have a partial point. Religion isn't just "a way to show why things happened," I think it's more than that. In History, I just finished studying about the Russian Revolution, Lenin, Stalin, and Marxism. Under Marxism, Lenin believed that with the progression towards human perfection, reglion would eventually be a thing of the past, because people look to religion during suffering and under human perfection, there would be no suffering. That's another senario of religion dissappearing, but highly unlikely. I find it intersting that religion has led to so many wars in the past. I think there is something there...That's why I think religion is has pro's and con's...but we won't get into that. I hope that helps some for now.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 817 times:
It is certainly a point to ponder. The problem I have with atheistic science as the final answer is this.
There is really no scientific reason to behave. It's a shame if we invented Hell just to make people behave themselves but . . . So take away the possibility of God, the possibility of your soul continuing after your body dies, either reincarnated or some other afterlife concept and there is just no reason NOT to drop that nuke.
There is no scientific reason not to nuke the planet. Not really. Fry it! It is not bad, it is merely interesting. I don't want you to, because I'm not finished living yet. I also don't want to make the decision on behalf of my children, grandchildren and friends who might not be finished living yet. But there is no real reason.
Okay, uncomfortable talking nukes here? Make it any lesser transgression. Why should you not become an easy-credit ripoff artist. If those people are so stupid as to use your 21% interest rate - screw 'em. Good news is, usury is illegal ONLY IF you do not get Government permission.
What is the basis for our laws? What is at the heart of ethical behaviour?
It is easy to see why man invented God, if that is what happened. Not so easy to see is why they made him so vicious and, well, silly. "Okay, heads on people - huge mistake!" Everyone cover them up or burn in hell!"
So tell me. What makes YOU behave yourself?
Fear of jail?
Is that it?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
Aerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 6368 posts, RR: 13 Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 811 times:
I agree with the first part of the statement regarding scientific explanations replacing polytheism, but i disagree with the fact that the modern religions will disappear in the future. People will always have hope about something(be it religious hope or not), and therefore they have faith. The concept of god doesn't work for all of us (me included) but there will always be some people that believe that they were made by a God for a purpose and will have faith in an afterlife.
Airbus3801 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1089 posts, RR: 5 Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 809 times:
Relgion is stupid if it is just used to make you not do mad things. That should up to a person to decide what they want to do, not some immortal being watching down on us.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 797 times:
Okay, Airbus3801 but don't forget that more decided that what they wanted to do was vote for Bush, than wanted to vote for Kerry.
Still like the idea of us making up our own minds?
I agree with you that adults should not need anyone watching to make them do the right thing.
Just a good thought at this point.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
Airbus3801 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1089 posts, RR: 5 Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 794 times:
And SlamClick, do you think I said that ANYWHERE in my post that I was upset about any election? And where exactly did I say that I was not for people making there own decisons? Obviously you assume too much.
PacificWestern From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 782 times:
Organized religion evolved for many reasons. It comes down to needs, wants, or a combination.
People during dark times need to believe in something to survive. To believe in a higher power that is looking out for them can be an inspiration or a crutch. Believing that there is a better place than here on Earth and that that place must be earned sets a goal for an “afterlife”.
Historically, the need for control has played a huge part. Setting and maintaining standards that must be followed by all or risk eternal damnation has always been a tool of controlling others. It’s a sad fact of life that through the ages most of the human race has used and/or adapted scriptures for their own purposes. ie “I don’t want him to do that so I’ll tell him God says no and then he’ll be scared he’s going to Hell and he’ll obey MY wishes.”
I’ve always thought that if there is such a thing as an Almighty God, regardless of which faith you belong to or whatever name you call the supreme being, it’s very vulgar to believe that any mere mortal is worthy enough to be the spokesperson for Him/Her/It.
Religion and faith in God is most commonly used as a weapon against others. What better way to feel more superior than your neighbour than to pontificate and make yourself better than another.
Alternative religious denominations came into being as needs, and more particularly, wants, were not being met. An over simplified example is Henry VIII’s break with Rome because of a matrimonial situation. He wanted to dispose of one wife to take another. Obviously the Pope was not inclined to cooperate, so Henry’s wants were not being met. Hence, he became the head of his own Church of England. Of course, there was that business of dissolution of the monasteries and pocketing the wealth, but as I said, this is an over simplified example.
Anyone who picks up a copy of The New Testament and believes it’s the true Word, for word, is delusional. It’s an accepted fact that the original scriptures from wherever they came, have been modified, rewritten, and twisted to suit those who re-authored the original writings.
Sadly, too often people use religion as the reason for their actions when in fact, they use it as the excuse.
Flybyguy From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1791 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 767 times:
Sadly, too often people use religion as the reason for their actions when in fact, they use it as the excuse.
And on the same note... people who use their lack of religion to chastise the religious community for lacking understanding as the world loses foundational moral conviction in favor of cut and dry scientific thought.
By any account, my scientific side says cloning isn't bad (the more the merrier), abortion isn't completely immoral, uninhibited stem-cell research is a really good thing (millions can be cured of various diseases), etc. etc.
However, my religious side has serious disgust over cloning (the conception of the soul becomes irrelevant), abortion is the termination of a defenseless life (nuf said), and though stem cell research can cure and treat many disease plaguing modern man... the best stem cell cultures must come from human embryos (termination if innocent life like abortion).
It is my understanding however, that the embryos are usually by-products of the human in-vitro fertilization process and if they are not used they are simply discarded since the costs to maintain them are staggering. I think in that instance, the embryos should then be used to save other lives if no other morally sound route can be taken.
I feel that a religious voice needs to be heard in the forums on these types of issues. I can't stand it when people damn religion the moment it fails them. In this unfair life, what has ever been perfect?
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
Aerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 6368 posts, RR: 13 Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 753 times:
"So tell me. What makes YOU behave yourself?
Fear of jail?
Is that it?"
How about just having a social conscience? We do not need religion to have a social conscience it is an inherent part of our species social structure and our ability to place ourselves in the others shoes. Just because I am athiest I am no more likely to drop an nuke/rip someone off/commit crime than any Christian/Muslim/Jew that belives that their God is on their side so that makes it OK in the eyes of God.
BTW it is not judicial punishment that scares me, it is what my family would think of me if I were a criminal. Being a social outcast is not my idea of fun, nor is it good for someone to have a criminal record with the interests/job prospects that
I would like to follow in the future. In the end it is self discipline to get you ahead to a future goal.
Also the reason 'God' is so vindictive as you put it, he was invented with the very potent and virtually limitless imagination of Homo Sapiens. Once people realised that if you could find a way of control what a person believes in you could control their actions, that was good knowledge for social leaders to have, which in the feudal/tribal age helped ensure their survival.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 694 times:
Aerorobnz first, I agree with you about extremist religion. Potential there to talk people into the most outrageous acts if you can convince them that God (certainly more important than any human consideration) wants them to do it.
I also think I am driven by the same conscience or ethical motivations as you are. I'm just not sure they are written down anywhere. Religion, at its best offered rules for most situations. Laws are supposed to do the same thing.
My real fear is that there is something in our nature that makes us look for "gods." That something is not real rational but it is powerful. Currently, I believe that in western civilization celebrity worship is replacing organized religion. Cher or Oprah must be saintly - look how rich they are. I've seen it in debates here - I make more money than you, so you should shut up and listen to me. Of course it is silly, but it seems to prevail in the absence of some other standard.
I once goaded a devout and believing Catholic into an argument with a man, for whom science was a religion. They were both informed, intelligent and articulate so it was a thoroughly enjoyable evening. No conclusions at the end of it all though, except that maybe religion has no answers "how" and science has no answers "why."
Good stuff for debate though.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
OzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4684 posts, RR: 23 Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 645 times:
I've never doubted the existance of god, or a higher power if you will. But at the end of the day logic won out for me. The religions of the world can't all be right, but they can all be wrong.
Women don't come out looking to well in them either. Christianity lays the blame of original sin on women, and women seem to be worth less then men in Islam. These are very broad general views and obviously vary from sect to sect or denomination to denomination.
Most of the trouble in the world seems to eminate from elements who think they have god on their side, or their political views are correct as opposed to someone else.
The less said about religion and gays the better.
It always seemed to me that the stories in the bible were no more or less preposterous than those of ancient Greece or Rome or the legends of the Norse gods.
Maybe if poeple concerned themselves with their personal spiritual quests and less with those of the people next door to them the world would be a better and safer place.
But no, people on a "holy mission" need to have someone to hold up as the bogeyman. Used to be satan, or infidels. Now in the US it seems to be gays and infidels, satan's riding this one out.
Regardless of your personal beliefs, PLEASE, mind your own business and leave the rest of us alone.
Aerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 6368 posts, RR: 13 Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 627 times:
SlamClick,
Yes I think your views and mine are rather similar. As for the human mind looking for Gods & celebs that is interesting. yes there could be something in that.
Human beings like other species are programmed to rank on attribute combinations. It works right the way down to the bottom of the social structure.
Gorillas - Male + Silverback(mature) = Leader of Group
Lions - Male + Strength + Harem of Mating partners= Pride leader
Elephants - Female + Maturity = Matriach
Humans - Power + Wealth = Leader - religious/political/leader of industry
Generally in the past, those with power, a title, were wealthy, and so were seen as being top of the ladder. Top of the ladder = closest to God (eg: Kings of England etc). As the world has begun to award wealth to those of modest backgrounds (work/lottery/whatever reason) it has changed the social conditioning to assume that if you have money, you must be important, and you must have power. Monarchys have less & less power, Heads of state have shown over time that they are not as great as they like to think, so that leaves the celebrities next in line. Of course Celebrities have money, and a degree of power so in all likelyhood do get worshipped by those 'lower' on the social structure.
That is why we drive around in Mercedes S500s as it becomes a quantifiable measure of our importance in the 'group'. "Keeping up with the Jones" is a natural survival technique to ensure we fit in/justify our place in the Human society. That is why this fear of being a social outcast/separated from our family is enough to keep us on the straight and narrow without having the need for written laws & a God to control our lives. We are after all an incredibly social and empathetic species, so obviously that makes sense that we are like that.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 621 times:
Well, I sort of think that way. Then my wife comes along and tells me that I've just be conditioned by a hundred generations of Judeo-Christian guilt to be tractable, obediant, in short to be a good middle-class drone.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
Aerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 6368 posts, RR: 13 Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 616 times:
LOL.....there's probably an element of truth to that too.. Social Conditioning is an extremely powerful device, one that politicians and other con-artists use to their advantage daily.
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