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Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?  
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1781 times:

Question's pretty self-explanatory.....



Free speech? ....or traitorous drivel?


Let me be clear on the fact that I think there's absolutely zilch chance that he'll be found guilty of treason, as some (loons) are pushing for. While there may be "witnesses" ready and willing to testify against him, it'd be tough as hell for any lawyer to successfully argue that he's committed an overt act.

That said, I do think he'll eventually be found blatantly incompetent (for his statements to a captive audience, funded by taxpayer money) and his tenure revoked.


...and I'm not alone in thinking thus. However, SHOULD this be the case. Where does 1st ammendment end, if/when others are being affected.

What say you?

72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1772 times:

I don't think much can be done in the way of free-speech. The only thing that could work is to put pressure on CU until they get get rid of him or ask him to resign if he is already tenured.


"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1763 times:

The only thing that could work is to put pressure on CU until they get get rid of him or ask him to resign if he is already tenured.

Already done.

He's not going to resign. CI is in a 30day review of his tenure... if they find him "incompetent" it can be revoked, if not, he remains.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1762 times:

Again, CU can fire him. An employer can ensure their employees put forth the opinions of the management.

But the government can't find him guilty of treason. He didn't do anything illegal. He's an idiot.

N


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4346 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1757 times:

There's nothing that can be done to him in the legal realm - he may be a loon, but any action against him by the government would fail on First Amendment grounds.


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11446 posts, RR: 76
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1753 times:
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He is merely an inane spouter of hatred. Thats not enough reason to muzzle him.

Our nation is strong enough to have people like him rise up and say their piece, and I would defend his rights, as I would defend any others'. Do I want public money to pay this ass for spouting his drivel, no. If his employer feels he is bringing them into a bad light, then he should have to deal with that. But we should not legally enjoin him from speaking his "mind".

Even if he is an attention seeking, revisionist America hater who doesn't deserve to enjoy the rights he abuses.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5632 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1747 times:

Ward Churchill has been a longtime activist for American Indian rights and has been associated with the radical American Indian Movement. He is an enrolled member of a Cherokee group from Oklahoma and says that he is of mixed white and Indian ancestry. Some research has shown, however, that he is at most one sixth-fourth Indian, and even that is doubtful. The Cherokee group that gave him tribal membership apparently gave out memberships to just about anyone who asked.
Source:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0%2C1299%2CDRMN_15_3525487%2C00.html



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineFDXMECH From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 34
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1742 times:

His First Amendment Rights really come into play.

Why?

Because CU is a *state* university.



You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13040 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1733 times:

Unfortntaly, there has been for 40 years too many professors whom have liberal to radical liberal views and not enough conservitives or moderates in most university campuses in the USA and many places in Europe. There is a total lack of the balance in views which modern education should contain. This is nothing new. Back in the 1950's professors with 'communist' views were fired or 'encouraged' to keep extreme, pro-communist views in check.
The best answer to deal with such extremeist professors is to publicize there views, let students have choices whom don't want to take courses with professors with such extreme views not choose them. Those whom take courses with him should challange his views in class openly, as should take place, without grade penalty. If the enrollment of classes of such professors declines, then maybe they or the University/College will have the ability to lay them off as not financially efficient. What may happen at the University where this professor teaches at is that the state legisgature may cut or reduce funding to it to teach them a lesson.


User currently offlineSaxdiva From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2382 posts, RR: 42
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1726 times:

Hmm. First off, Ward Churchill is a moron.

Should tenure rules be circumvented in order to can him? Nope. Most university professors are expected to conduct research and publish their findings. Much of their work--especially in the humanities--is controversial, but controversy doesn't automatically equal wrong. The whole idea of tenure is that it protects unpopular views--sometimes contributing to worthwhile social progress, sometimes not... I think it tends to be cyclic as society as a whole becomes more or less socially conservative.

So what happens to the Ward Churchills? The most egregious academic malcontents I've known about hang themselves--sooner or later--in some way where tenure won't protect them. The rest seem to end up in positions where their ability to cause damage is limited, and eventually move on to villas in Mexico (or wherever), where I suspect they spend their retirement smoking weed and hating the world. I can't guess which route Churchill might take, but he's basically shot himself in the foot by being so over the top. How would anyone take him seriously?

-Leanne


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1719 times:

Should tenure rules be circumvented in order to can him? Nope.

Well, there wouldn't have to be in this case.

Many universities employ (quite broad) clauses for the revocation of tenure, CU being among them.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1712 times:

Many things come to mind, all borne out of emotion rather than logic.

Let Todd Beamer's wife have a shot at him . . .

Let him loose in the courtyard of the Pentagon - it's 15 acres, plenty of room for him to run about . . .

However . . .

This is America, he has the right to spout off - just like RSmith in the non-av forum.

The PCs freaks will all spout about Free Speech - Free Speech. Well, it is my 1st Amendment right to proclaim the guy a nut case, a complete and utter fruit loop.

It is CUs responsibility, nee, DUTY to remove him from the staff. Anyone with such bizarre thoughts going through their minds should not be allowed to teach (using the word very lightly in his case) our young men and women anything, period!





User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1712 times:

There is a total lack of the balance in views which modern education should contain. This is nothing new. Back in the 1950's professors with 'communist' views were fired or 'encouraged' to keep extreme, pro-communist views in check.

I agree some professors are on their high horses about their political views but to say there needs to be some "equalization" with conservative professors is like making a case for Affirmative Action. Professors are chosen because of their value to the university in getting research grants, not their political views. It just happens that many of them (more so in humanities like saxdiva said...science professors seem to not be as vocal) are liberal.



"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1700 times:

In the private sector he would be fired and it would survive legal challenge.
Because he is a public employee he will probably not be fired.

I am more outraged at this difference than by his idiotic rant.

And when did the Government get into the business of protecting public employees from their own stupidity?




Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17363 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1692 times:

I thought it was interesting that he said something to the effect of "I do not work for Bill Owens or the State of Colorado" when in fact, he most certainly does since his pay comes from a combination of taxpayer money and endowment.

I am no fan of "hate speech" legislation but his speech certainly qualifies. You know full well that if, for example, that black Washington DC journalist came to speak how "American blacks should be greatful that they are not in Africa anymore", Churchill's supporters would be screaming "hate speech" and demanding his head.

Frankly I think it's impossible to fire him now without facing the freedom of speech issue, and it would be nearly impossible to fire him under any other guise. I think you either get him for hate speech or keep demoting him until he's assistant of janitorial studies and fire him when the hubub dies down. I just can't believe that this David Koresh wannabe was hired in the first place...it's not like this is the first time he's said/written something outrageous.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8502 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1692 times:

He needs a haircut. He looks like an ugly woman.



User currently offlineJetJock22 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1690 times:

It's sad that so many impressionable students find his "standing up" a good thing. If anything, they should be outraged that they are paying gobbs and gobbs of money and getting shit like this instead of a decent professor teaching them what they signed up to learn. I know that university is about "learning to think for yourself" but that doesn't cut it in the world today. It's about what you know, who you know, and how hard you work, not about pondering the meaning of life.

User currently offlineSLC1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1672 times:

I think the guy made some incredibly stupid comments, he may have some valid argument buried under the crap, but saying that the victims weren't innocent is just plain bullshit, and why he would stand up is just to incite anger. I don't think this really falls under free speech, he can say whatever the hell he wants, but he doesn't necessarily get to keep his job. However, this is a University Campus, which brings up an interesting issue. I think that a University should be a place where all ideas can be put forth in a public forum, much like Michael Moore's appearance at UVSC, so I don't think he should be fired (even if he were tenured) for his comments. He should also be permitted to defend his views. I think the only valid way to fire him would be to say that the manner in which he defended his statements was not resepectable, or for inciting protest. I would feel great with CU saying that they do not agree with his comments, but past that I don't know how much more can be done.

User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1660 times:

If he deserves to get fired or censured, then why not Rush Limbaugh, or Howard Stern, or George Bush, or Bill O'Reilly or any number of the nuts with crazy opinions?

I think this entire issue is being blown out of proportion. People shouldn't be discouraged from speaking their minds.


User currently offlineSLC1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks ago) and read 1653 times:

I don't think he should be censured, because that would be repressing ideas in a University Environment, I think CU could just say they don't agree with his opinions and don't believe them to be correct, like infomercials where they say "this is not necessarily the opinion... blah blah." I still think the guy is a dick.

User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks ago) and read 1641 times:

"repressing ideas" ?

Because a person happened to be at a certain address on a certain date makes them a Nazi. (FedEx and UPS delivery people, police and fire, secretaries etc. etc.) If that is what passes for "ideas" at your school may I suggest you might shop around a bit for next semester.

Perhaps CU should lose their acreditation. Clearly they have no idea what constitutes rational thought. Clearly they are a terrible judge of one's credentials to stand before students and pontificate.

Apparently they hand out tenure like party favors, like cocaine.

edit: Just so there is no misunderstanding, so that I am not deemed a Nazi, let me make it clear: I do not question his right to say that. I am outraged that a person who would wish to say that gets a public paycheck. As a taxpayer I think I can demand better.

For certain it is time to start drug testing ALL public employees.


[Edited 2005-02-12 02:39:34]

[Edited 2005-02-12 02:41:45]


Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17363 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1634 times:

"If he deserves to get fired or censured, then why not Rush Limbaugh, or Howard Stern, or George Bush, or Bill O'Reilly or any number of the nuts with crazy opinions?"

Crazy opinions such as....



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineSLC1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1631 times:

okay, here's what I'm trying to say... he shouldn't be fired for his dumb-ass views, that isn't what a University is all about, if they want to fire/censure him for how he went about defending his views, or inciting his students that's fine with me.

User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1611 times:

This isn't much different than the movement to ban the teaching of evolution in school.

The free exchange of ideas should be encouraged. Considering the fact that college students are generally possess the sophistication to make up their own mind, there should be no attempt to stifle a professor's opinions.

Is it acceptable and correct to teach students that the American invasion of Iraq was justified? How about Vietnam? Korea? Is it OK to explain that dropping nukes on Japan ended WWII? Or is it possible that various points of view should be presented and the students are left to form their own opinion?

I've heard many first party accounts of people who were oppressed in their country of birth. I've heard stories of how the government actively supressed any ideas it deemed contrary to government policy or a risk to their rule.

Just how oppressive do you want your own country to be? Do you want people to be in fear of expressing their opinion? Evolution, political opinions.....just keep it up. You'll be living in a police state in no time.


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1604 times:

What does it say about you Airplay if you think that calling a passenger on one of the four ill-fated 9/11 flights, or a delivery person in the WTC on that morning a "Nazi" or an "Eichmann" is an "idea?"

* * *


"Is it OK to explain that dropping nukes on Japan ended WWII? "

Well, given that the Japanese military had been beaten back all the way from Burma and New Guinea, island to island until they were pretty well confined to their home islands and never once had a single military unit surrendered, and they were actively engaged in attacking our fleet on Hiroshima morning and Nagasaki morning but less than a week later, the entire nation surrenders.

What sort of cosmic coincidence do you believe in?

But you do bring up a good point. I'd hate to have Ward Churchill begin to feel oppressed - like, say, a conservative in Canada.





Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
25 FDXMECH : >>>If he deserves to get fired or censured, then why not Rush Limbaugh, or Howard Stern, or George Bush, or Bill O'Reilly or any number of the nuts wi
26 ConcordeBoy : If he deserves to get fired or censured, then why not Rush Limbaugh, or Howard Stern, or George Bush, or Bill O'Reilly or any number of the nuts with
27 USAFHummer : I've been looking through past records of Churchill's classes...here at CU,at the end of every course, we fill out something called an "FCQ" which sta
28 SlamClick : So what are you saying USAFHummer? That society should take its cues on right and wrong from a bunch of college students? Did you know that recent res
29 USAFHummer : I was merely posting it as an FYI...nothing more, nothing less, just food for thought... Greg
30 SlamClick : me too filler filler
31 Post contains links Nosedive : What does it say about you Airplay if you think that calling a passenger on one of the four ill-fated 9/11 flights, or a delivery person in the WTC on
32 Russophile : I guess some people take issue to his comment Payback, as they say, can be a real motherfucker (ask the Germans). Because reading what he said, which
33 N317AS : Leave him at CU. If he leaves there he could make a bee line for Seattle. God knows some of us don't want him here.
34 Airplay : What does it say about you Airplay if you think that calling a passenger on one of the four ill-fated 9/11 flights, or a delivery person in the WTC on
35 Jake056 : The guy is history. His "academic" career is over. Don't waste typing or breath over him. CU is going to boot him and they should. Now they are lookin
36 Airplay : This is not a free speach issue. He can say whatever he wants, and more power to him. But the taxpayers can equally say, "My taxes are NOT going to pa
37 NIKV69 : A lot of people are not understanding what is happening here. He is fully within his rights to say the things he is saying. What is funny is that he i
38 AirxLiban : Isn't free speech the whole point of the USA anyway? Nothing should be done. It should be clear that his opinions do not necessarily reflect the opini
39 Dc10guy : The dude is a bit of a radical. But there is truth in a lot of what he says. That's why he comes off as a radical. The innocent that die in one of our
40 NIKV69 : His comparison about innocent dying when we attack someone is completely ridiculous. This isn't a money thing. He is trying to make this a money thing
41 Mham001 : His entire career is based on the claim that he is of Indian heritage. Even his early books claim such and he bases his opinions on that heritage. Fac
42 DC10GUY : "because of this plight he is inventing about his so called Indian family." Spoken like a true white man ... The Indians have no one to blame but the
43 NIKV69 : Oh brother, another "we went into Iraq so we can get their oil" Well where is it? That is Democratic propaganda, and you have bought right into it. We
44 Falcon84 : Where does 1st ammendment end, if/when others are being affected. When in doubt, err on the side of the First Amendment. If you err on the other side,
45 ANCFlyer : Falcon: Let him say what he thinks. Doesn't mean CU can't get rid of him, but he should be perfectly safe in his own person, espousing whatever he wan
46 NIKV69 : Even though I think this person is a complete idiot I do not believe he should be fired. Even it becomes fact he lied about his Indian heritage which
47 GuitrThree : Don't fire him "Even it becomes fact he lied about his Indian heritage which just makes him look more of an idiot that he already is. NO!! NO!! NO!! L
48 DC10GUY : I find it interesting that if a person dare speak up against the Republican machine, The first thing that is done is a complete back ground check, tha
49 GuitrThree : DC10GUY, "The first thing that is done is a complete back ground check, than a spin campaign to discredit that person. All to make people not listen t
50 DC10GUY : Easy, Wall street is the heart of American greed. Our greed is why most Muslims hate us. That's why they attacked it. American greed is why the Indian
51 GuitrThree : Ok, so you agree with Churchill that American greed is a valid reason for killing 3,000+ Americans. Ok, I see you are part of the idiot group. Thanks
52 Solarix : This guy should be fired, arrested and deported. Ok..maybe I am going too far. But he is a huge disgrace to this country. If he hates it so much why d
53 GuitrThree : Solarix, You're exactly right... where else can he make $90K a year to teach two classes a year for 3 hours a week... we can only hope he moves somewh
54 Dc10guy : If Mr. Churchill was praising the Republicans would his employment ap be an issue ??? See where the Nazi angle comes in here ???
55 GuitrThree : "If Mr. Churchill was praising the Republicans would his employment ap be an issue ??? See where the Nazi angle comes in here ???" First off, "Mr." Ch
56 DC10GUY : Yes, But the republicans where already digging into Clintons "Background" Mr. Churchill has the nerve to point out the "negative side" of the republic
57 NIKV69 : Why is Wall St greed? I will agree some corporations like Enron and Worldcom are bad apples but Wall St as a whole is not greed. Free enterprise is no
58 Boeing7E7 : I think his acid dropping days in the 60's have finally taken their toll. Out with the old, find someone new.
59 Solarix : DC10GUY, this isn't a democrat vs. republican issue for me. When people think they have to attack my country and call us nazis, that sets me off. I ha
60 DC10GUY : Solarix, I bothers the hell out of me too. I agree that its not just a Republican issue. Its a American Government issue. Sending kids to die in Iraq
61 NIKV69 : DC10GUY, Where do you get this info? Sending kids to die for oil? Do you realize how you sound? Believe me in 10 years from now we will be talking abo
62 DC10GUY : NIKV69, Did the "WMD" story come from the Democrats too ? Would we have invaded Iraq if their #1 export was broccoli ???
63 NIKV69 : "WMDs"? Come on really, you are still hanging on to that one? November was a long time ago. Drop it for now, I mean we will be hearing all this Democr
64 Russophile : Muslims hate us why? Because we like a world where people can make an honest living and companies can have shareholders? Muslims hate you because you
65 MaverickM11 : "Muslims hate you because you were willing to consider the preventable deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children as an acceptable statistic in the furthering o
66 Solarix : Muslims hate you because you overthrew a democratically elected government and subjected a nation to 25+ years of despotic rule. Democratically electe
67 Nosedive : When did Ward Churchill move to Iraq???
68 DC10GUY : Well, One thing is for sure about my good friend Mr. Churchill, He sure does piss off the rightes. And that's good enough for me. Rock on Ward !!! Kee
69 ANCFlyer : DC10Guy: Sending kids to die in Iraq for oil bothers the hell out of me Russophile: Muslims hate you because you overthrew a democratically elected go
70 Saxdiva : C'mon, DC10Guy... Churchill managed to offend a lot more than just the "righties." The guy is so far out in left field with his rhetoric that it tends
71 Stlgph : The un-education of higher thought and principles of A.netters is beginning to show. You forget Churchill's speech ultimately is political speech, whi
72 NIKV69 : You go right ahead and rock on with Mr. Churchill DC10guy, he and his words are the reason the Democratic party is in a downward spiral and why more A
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