ConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (8 years 10 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1607 times:
Question's pretty self-explanatory.....
Free speech? ....or traitorous drivel?
Let me be clear on the fact that I think there's absolutely zilch chance that he'll be found guilty of treason, as some (loons) are pushing for. While there may be "witnesses" ready and willing to testify against him, it'd be tough as hell for any lawyer to successfully argue that he's committed an overt act.
That said, I do think he'll eventually be found blatantly incompetent (for his statements to a captive audience, funded by taxpayer money) and his tenure revoked.
...and I'm not alone in thinking thus. However, SHOULD this be the case. Where does 1st ammendment end, if/when others are being affected.
DL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11443 posts, RR: 78 Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1579 times:
He is merely an inane spouter of hatred. Thats not enough reason to muzzle him.
Our nation is strong enough to have people like him rise up and say their piece, and I would defend his rights, as I would defend any others'. Do I want public money to pay this ass for spouting his drivel, no. If his employer feels he is bringing them into a bad light, then he should have to deal with that. But we should not legally enjoin him from speaking his "mind".
Even if he is an attention seeking, revisionist America hater who doesn't deserve to enjoy the rights he abuses.
PROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5526 posts, RR: 5 Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1573 times:
Ward Churchill has been a longtime activist for American Indian rights and has been associated with the radical American Indian Movement. He is an enrolled member of a Cherokee group from Oklahoma and says that he is of mixed white and Indian ancestry. Some research has shown, however, that he is at most one sixth-fourth Indian, and even that is doubtful. The Cherokee group that gave him tribal membership apparently gave out memberships to just about anyone who asked.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
LTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12680 posts, RR: 13 Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 6 days ago) and read 1559 times:
Unfortntaly, there has been for 40 years too many professors whom have liberal to radical liberal views and not enough conservitives or moderates in most university campuses in the USA and many places in Europe. There is a total lack of the balance in views which modern education should contain. This is nothing new. Back in the 1950's professors with 'communist' views were fired or 'encouraged' to keep extreme, pro-communist views in check.
The best answer to deal with such extremeist professors is to publicize there views, let students have choices whom don't want to take courses with professors with such extreme views not choose them. Those whom take courses with him should challange his views in class openly, as should take place, without grade penalty. If the enrollment of classes of such professors declines, then maybe they or the University/College will have the ability to lay them off as not financially efficient. What may happen at the University where this professor teaches at is that the state legisgature may cut or reduce funding to it to teach them a lesson.
Saxdiva From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2382 posts, RR: 44 Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1552 times:
Hmm. First off, Ward Churchill is a moron.
Should tenure rules be circumvented in order to can him? Nope. Most university professors are expected to conduct research and publish their findings. Much of their work--especially in the humanities--is controversial, but controversy doesn't automatically equal wrong. The whole idea of tenure is that it protects unpopular views--sometimes contributing to worthwhile social progress, sometimes not... I think it tends to be cyclic as society as a whole becomes more or less socially conservative.
So what happens to the Ward Churchills? The most egregious academic malcontents I've known about hang themselves--sooner or later--in some way where tenure won't protect them. The rest seem to end up in positions where their ability to cause damage is limited, and eventually move on to villas in Mexico (or wherever), where I suspect they spend their retirement smoking weed and hating the world. I can't guess which route Churchill might take, but he's basically shot himself in the foot by being so over the top. How would anyone take him seriously?
ANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1538 times:
Many things come to mind, all borne out of emotion rather than logic.
Let Todd Beamer's wife have a shot at him . . .
Let him loose in the courtyard of the Pentagon - it's 15 acres, plenty of room for him to run about . . .
However . . .
This is America, he has the right to spout off - just like RSmith in the non-av forum.
The PCs freaks will all spout about Free Speech - Free Speech. Well, it is my 1st Amendment right to proclaim the guy a nut case, a complete and utter fruit loop.
It is CUs responsibility, nee, DUTY to remove him from the staff. Anyone with such bizarre thoughts going through their minds should not be allowed to teach (using the word very lightly in his case) our young men and women anything, period!
Mdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4119 posts, RR: 9 Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1538 times:
There is a total lack of the balance in views which modern education should contain. This is nothing new. Back in the 1950's professors with 'communist' views were fired or 'encouraged' to keep extreme, pro-communist views in check.
I agree some professors are on their high horses about their political views but to say there needs to be some "equalization" with conservative professors is like making a case for Affirmative Action. Professors are chosen because of their value to the university in getting research grants, not their political views. It just happens that many of them (more so in humanities like saxdiva said...science professors seem to not be as vocal) are liberal.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16506 posts, RR: 48 Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1518 times:
I thought it was interesting that he said something to the effect of "I do not work for Bill Owens or the State of Colorado" when in fact, he most certainly does since his pay comes from a combination of taxpayer money and endowment.
I am no fan of "hate speech" legislation but his speech certainly qualifies. You know full well that if, for example, that black Washington DC journalist came to speak how "American blacks should be greatful that they are not in Africa anymore", Churchill's supporters would be screaming "hate speech" and demanding his head.
Frankly I think it's impossible to fire him now without facing the freedom of speech issue, and it would be nearly impossible to fire him under any other guise. I think you either get him for hate speech or keep demoting him until he's assistant of janitorial studies and fire him when the hubub dies down. I just can't believe that this David Koresh wannabe was hired in the first place...it's not like this is the first time he's said/written something outrageous.
JetJock22 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1516 times:
It's sad that so many impressionable students find his "standing up" a good thing. If anything, they should be outraged that they are paying gobbs and gobbs of money and getting shit like this instead of a decent professor teaching them what they signed up to learn. I know that university is about "learning to think for yourself" but that doesn't cut it in the world today. It's about what you know, who you know, and how hard you work, not about pondering the meaning of life.
SLC1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1498 times:
I think the guy made some incredibly stupid comments, he may have some valid argument buried under the crap, but saying that the victims weren't innocent is just plain bullshit, and why he would stand up is just to incite anger. I don't think this really falls under free speech, he can say whatever the hell he wants, but he doesn't necessarily get to keep his job. However, this is a University Campus, which brings up an interesting issue. I think that a University should be a place where all ideas can be put forth in a public forum, much like Michael Moore's appearance at UVSC, so I don't think he should be fired (even if he were tenured) for his comments. He should also be permitted to defend his views. I think the only valid way to fire him would be to say that the manner in which he defended his statements was not resepectable, or for inciting protest. I would feel great with CU saying that they do not agree with his comments, but past that I don't know how much more can be done.
SLC1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1479 times:
I don't think he should be censured, because that would be repressing ideas in a University Environment, I think CU could just say they don't agree with his opinions and don't believe them to be correct, like infomercials where they say "this is not necessarily the opinion... blah blah." I still think the guy is a dick.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 69 Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1467 times:
"repressing ideas" ?
Because a person happened to be at a certain address on a certain date makes them a Nazi. (FedEx and UPS delivery people, police and fire, secretaries etc. etc.) If that is what passes for "ideas" at your school may I suggest you might shop around a bit for next semester.
Perhaps CU should lose their acreditation. Clearly they have no idea what constitutes rational thought. Clearly they are a terrible judge of one's credentials to stand before students and pontificate.
Apparently they hand out tenure like party favors, like cocaine.
edit: Just so there is no misunderstanding, so that I am not deemed a Nazi, let me make it clear: I do not question his right to say that. I am outraged that a person who would wish to say that gets a public paycheck. As a taxpayer I think I can demand better.
For certain it is time to start drug testing ALL public employees.
[Edited 2005-02-12 02:39:34]
[Edited 2005-02-12 02:41:45]
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
SLC1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1457 times:
okay, here's what I'm trying to say... he shouldn't be fired for his dumb-ass views, that isn't what a University is all about, if they want to fire/censure him for how he went about defending his views, or inciting his students that's fine with me.
Airplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1437 times:
This isn't much different than the movement to ban the teaching of evolution in school.
The free exchange of ideas should be encouraged. Considering the fact that college students are generally possess the sophistication to make up their own mind, there should be no attempt to stifle a professor's opinions.
Is it acceptable and correct to teach students that the American invasion of Iraq was justified? How about Vietnam? Korea? Is it OK to explain that dropping nukes on Japan ended WWII? Or is it possible that various points of view should be presented and the students are left to form their own opinion?
I've heard many first party accounts of people who were oppressed in their country of birth. I've heard stories of how the government actively supressed any ideas it deemed contrary to government policy or a risk to their rule.
Just how oppressive do you want your own country to be? Do you want people to be in fear of expressing their opinion? Evolution, political opinions.....just keep it up. You'll be living in a police state in no time.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 69 Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1430 times:
What does it say about you Airplay if you think that calling a passenger on one of the four ill-fated 9/11 flights, or a delivery person in the WTC on that morning a "Nazi" or an "Eichmann" is an "idea?"
* * *
"Is it OK to explain that dropping nukes on Japan ended WWII? "
Well, given that the Japanese military had been beaten back all the way from Burma and New Guinea, island to island until they were pretty well confined to their home islands and never once had a single military unit surrendered, and they were actively engaged in attacking our fleet on Hiroshima morning and Nagasaki morning but less than a week later, the entire nation surrenders.
What sort of cosmic coincidence do you believe in?
But you do bring up a good point. I'd hate to have Ward Churchill begin to feel oppressed - like, say, a conservative in Canada.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
25 FDXMECH: >>>If he deserves to get fired or censured, then why not Rush Limbaugh, or Howard Stern, or George Bush, or Bill O'Reilly or any number of the nuts wi
26 ConcordeBoy: If he deserves to get fired or censured, then why not Rush Limbaugh, or Howard Stern, or George Bush, or Bill O'Reilly or any number of the nuts with
27 USAFHummer: I've been looking through past records of Churchill's classes...here at CU,at the end of every course, we fill out something called an "FCQ" which sta
28 SlamClick: So what are you saying USAFHummer? That society should take its cues on right and wrong from a bunch of college students? Did you know that recent res
29 USAFHummer: I was merely posting it as an FYI...nothing more, nothing less, just food for thought... Greg